[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The single market was not in the question.

Only if you/one want to hide behind a veil of ignorance, . It was at its core by definition. That is what the EU is, a single market.

Referenda????

Indeed membership. Membership of what?

"someone" on here berated me for highlighting the fact that as soon as Brexshite happens, Banks will leave in droves.

Obvious is obvious.

We know SocGen are out, MGren too, CityGroup are next with them looking at Ireland or anyone of the European cities..

I aint posting the link to the Gridieon, but its there.

Carney has committed to leave rates until 2019, when he leaves, just in time for the UK to sink lower than an Octopuses arsehole.

Heres a pic of a kitten playing with a ball, this should keep the Brexiteers occupied for a couple of days.

[img] [/img]

So Kerley your proposal for keeping the 48 happy when we leave is...... ? I thought they (me) wanted to stay, so how will they be happy when we leave? Do we get an EU flag each for nostalgia?

I don't have a proposal, but a hard Brexit clearly does not represent the will of the 48%.
The solution needs to include elements for both sides (good and bad)

Is Norway in the EU then?

Best case scenario - article 50 can be revoked (this will be decided by the european court, not sure how soon it's due).

In that case, the tories can invoke it, we have 2 years of mudslinging and accusations and hostility and then parliament can realise that the "deal" on offer is so much worse than what we currently have that they climb down. Cue riots and resignations left right and centre.

Of course this will cost billions, be hugely damaging politically and humiliate the country, but it's looking like the best possible outcome at this point.

No it is not a member of the EU

There are lots of ways to leave the EU.

You just slip out the union for customs, Dustin
We don't want no immigrant, Grant
Forget our ageing population, Jason
Just get yourself free
But what about the 350 bus, Gus?
You don't need to discuss much
Just 2 fingers to the EC and **** the economeee, Lee
And get yourself free

There must be 50 ways to leave the greatest free trade and socially progressive union the world has ever known.....

Is Norway in the single market then?

Semantics on what a single market is to follow

Yes, but the semantics can be dodged by observing that Norway is commonly agreed to not be a member of the EU, so whatever Norway's status is called, it's not possible to argue that leaving the EU necessarily prevents us from having essentially the same status as Norway.

TJ we'll leave Scotland for the Scottish thread. The good news aboit watching Newsnight on catchup is I can skip over Salmond.

Airbus (and Nipper's post)

Recently laid off 1000+ people, roughly 100 UK, 400 France (closing a plant), 400 Germany
Company struggling
Executives worried about Brexit putting further pressure on the company at a time when it is weak
Boeing likely to benefit from further strain on Airbus

So Airbus a major flagship European project is very worried about a hard Brexit impacting it's whole business. The EU not negotiating a sensible deal with the UK could severely damage it.

@tmh EU has lots of negotiators, cushy jobs for the euro boys and girls. Well paid, low tax, high pension. No time pressure, take as long as you want as the EU is about internal protectionism and expanding the club. The UK is hiring negotiators for a variety of reasons not least to focus on our global relationships. Personally those should be our priority. European unemployment is still rising, the signs are very bad

@Edukator Mdme Bird will take either €500k over 8 years or €800k over 5 - where do we apply ?

That is what the EU is, a single market.

.. and a bunch of other stuff...

So Jambalaya:

What sort of deal do you think would be 'sensible' and actually be better than being a full EU member? Genuine question.

airbus struggling? based on what? they employ ~ 10,000 people in the UK directly, and spend £4bn annually with UK suppliers.
in any case, if Trump keeps playing dickhead with China they'll sack off rather a large order with boeing and go airbus.

yeah, the EU has lots of negotiators, we don't. understand they even approached ACAS to see if they fancied chipping in!

The only answer he can give is: anything and everything. Because whatever Mayhem arrives at, he's got to say it's better than the current situation.

BIkebouy - one of the drivers for Scotland going for independence before the rUK exit - Edinburgh would be very well placed to take those banks

Jamba - nice swerve. Its a very difficult position the human rights one. Yes Scotland has different laws now in some areas but after May ditches your human rights its going to be really tricky for Westminster. Say Westminster introduces a change into social security that breaches the human rights act. This change could be challenged in Scotland but not England. So could not be applied in Scotland as it would be in England. Gonna cause major headaches

[i]Gonna cause major headaches [/I]

TJ

Westminster (and Jamba) don't care about Scotland really and tbh I'm surprised that May hasn't already suggested that we go for independence and stay in the EU as the 'rump' of the UK. Then they can get on messing the world up without us.

I'm surprised that May hasn't already suggested that we go for independence and stay in the EU as the 'rump' of the UK.

Can't remember if I saw it here or somewhere else, but someone suggested that the obvious solution is for England and Wales to declare independence from the UK.

The "UK" can then happily remain in the EU.
And The new "Kingdom of England and Wales" are free to negotiate their own trade deals etc without years of Article 50 bargaining and SNP pestering.

Simples.

(It's indicative of where we are at the moment that this crazy idea actually sounds like quite a good plan 🙂 )

My mate's about to move to Scotland. Interesting times for him!

So there will be a brexshit white paper (which is ironic, given that right now a blank piece of white paper more or less sums up the government's plan thus far)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38737967

Zokes - good. I bet Salmond is rubbing his hands with glee, A master parliamentarian and political schemer like him will enjoy the chance to make mischief over this.

well someone's got to be the opposition, and the official one doesn't seem up to the job.

So could not be applied in Scotland as it would be in England. Gonna cause major headaches

Why Scotland already has its own legal, education, healthcare etc. systems, plus things like different drink driving limits, so what extra headache does this bring.

Westminster don't care about Scotland really

I don't buy that, however, always remember Scotland only makes up ~10% of the population. In fact by population-wise it is slightly less than the West Mindlands.

A master parliamentarian and political schemer like him will enjoy the chance to make mischief over this.

He have to be incredibly talented - white papers don't go through Parliament.

Did i see Jamba right earlier, now predicting the demise of Airbus? Or is it something else European he hates?

So Airbus a major flagship European project is very worried about a hard Brexit impacting it's whole business. The EU not negotiating a sensible deal with the UK could severely damage it.

or they could move production back within the SM or CU and hey presto those 1000 jobs back plus a gain of another 5000 or so plus supply chain.

And that is what Airbus chairman said.

its the brexit white paper hokey-kokey

today its in

yesterday it was out

shake it all about

do the brexishambles and you turn around

Dragon. Imagine a UK wide policy such as social security. A rule change is introduced that is incompatible with the european decalaration of human rights such as some form of sanction. A scot successfully challenges it in the courts. An English fails in his challenge. Suddenly this UK wide rule would only apply in England not Scotland.

Its completely unworkable.

A scot successfully challenges it in the courts. An English fails in his challenge.

But we have a single supreme court?

Good point. Ah… oh…

How about companies like g4s that operate government contracts across the UK. In scotland they would have to act differently to in England.

Or what about the scot on holiday in England and the englishperson on holiday in Scotland?

Westminster policy on reserved matters could be legal in England like the snoopers charter but not in Scotland despite it being a reserved matter?

The idea the the european declaration on human rights only applies in part of the UK is such a nonsense

Suddenly this UK wide rule would only apply in England not Scotland.

Power devolved is power retained.

How about companies like g4s that operate government contracts across the UK. In scotland they would have to act differently to in England.

G4S operates in over 100 countries - I'm sure they could manage it.

Scotroutes - the point being if it was incompatible with the european declaration on human rights which is incorporated into scots law. Its not that its a devolved power - its that its incompatible with scots law but not english law.

Ie after westminster gets rid of human rights in England no challenge to bad law on human rights would be possible in England but it still would be possible to challenge it in Scotland ( and Wales and NI)

Mefty 😉 we don't need details to get in our "friend's " way

It's not semantics re Norway it's at the heart of the next stage. It doesn't matter if people may think they are member or not. They are not.

Membership and access are too fundamentally different thing. We have voted against the former and are now negotiating the terms of the latter.

They are part of the EEA which is different. We do not have a guaranteed right to join this either not even if we are the SNP!!

Kimbers the WP was a partial climb down times (PMQ staged question) to take the wind out of the old bloke. It was a success. It will probably merely repeat the details we already know.

May is getting the hang of this rather quickly

Membership and access are too fundamentally different thing.

And, there are many different forms of both.
Norway, for example, is signed up to the SM for manufactured goods, but not food and drink.
I'll leave you to argue if they have membership of, or access to, the SM.
Whatever they have, we could try to get, except May has taken a position that rules that out.

We have voted against the former and are now negotiating the terms of the latter.

No. We voted to leave the EU.
Our PM has her own personal red lines (not in the referendum question or her party's manifesto).
These red lines prevent us negotiating some form of SM membership, and probably most beneficial forms of access.

I'm on the train again. Have we not sorted this out yet? (Who am I kidding?)

Is EEA as I recall. So are we. We got joined due to being EU. Leaving EU does not appear (according to some decent legal minds) chuck us out of the EEA. For that we need to trigger Article 127 of the EEA agreement.

Did the voting slip say "and the EEA" in really small letters I didn't see?

They are part of the EEA which is different. We do not have a guaranteed right to join this

We are already in it afaik and A50 does not necessarily bring us out of it...

As we have no effective opposition in this country it's up to you to help these people.
http://www.open-britain.co.uk/spread_the_word?utm_campaign=obemail_23_2&utm_medium=email&utm_source=in

I hate to say this but when we leave the EU we wont automatically leave the ECHR

The EFTA treaty is a treaty between EU countries and EFTA countries so on leaving the EU we would only retain membership if we automatically became an EFTA state as defined in the treaty. There is no provision as far as I can see for this to happen automatically.