[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[i]Something about some new lines being painted. [/i]

Basically there's been 8 months of the UK not agreeing to what the EU asked for to be able to start Trade negotiations before agreeing to it all with no concessions granted to the UK.

So we coudl be 8 months down the line on trade negotiations now.

Hang on - If NI can stay in the single market/ customs union not diverge from EU standards etc and this is satisfying the referendum result then can the whole of the UK?

Will the loonies revolt? How long does a leadership challenge take or can they just sack her?

Will the loonies revolt? How long does a leadership challenge take or can they just sack her?

None of them want to be the Brexit PM, happy to snipe from backbenches, too terrified of opinion polls showing labour victory to risk an election

I think they might be stupid enough to collapse the government. The DUP will hate the supposed NI solution, The rabid tendency will be frothing for all sorts of reasons. there is enough completely unhinged loons to bring them down

Bonkers if true, goodbye NI.

Problem is May has zero chance of getting this through parliament IMO

Redwood, Rees Mogg and the rest of the rbids will not cope with ECJ involvement, and will be very unhappy about no conditions regarding a trade deal

DUP will go ballistic at the first hint of anything being different about NI to mainland UK

SNP will be after their share

and don't forget that all 27 still have to agree

Anyone else enjoying all this control we were promised 18 months ago? At this rate we'll be in the euro soon and calling London Londres.

[img] [/img]

The UK has border agency check points in Calais, so EU border agency check points in NI Ports and airports seems reasonable, and avoids dividing Ireland.

A week ago I said:

Have a border between NI and the UK mainland manned by EU customs and I think trade negotiations can start. If that is not the case I think no deal is better than a bad deal for the EU and Ireland so no trade negotiations should proceed until the UK signs up to that.

It's all unravelling rather quickly once we actually get down to the practicalities of what this fiasco really means.

Good.

[i]Problem is May has zero chance of getting this through parliament IMO[/i]

Corbyn will force a three line whip on anything that he sees as Brexit. Opposition? Not really.

..and re unites Ireland which may please some and upset others.

Well who'd have thunk it?

The DUP MP Sammy Wilson has come out and said that they won't support any regulatory alignment on the Island of Ireland

Has that massive bung actually been paid to them yet? That piano still needs to go up those stairs....

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Pour ma part, bienvenue nos nouveaux suzerains européens (with apologies to Eduk and cchris).

Would there be scope for London to have a special deal as well?

How long until another election?

4 O clock?

Corbyn will force a three line whip on anything that he sees as Brexit. Opposition? Not really.

Phew - looks like phase 2 can commence soon. Well done the grown ups. Despite all the **** going on around then they look like to have pulled of some sensible compromises here. Shame it took so long but not easy.

Good job that remoaners who claimed none of this would be possible look like they are being proved wrong. No wonder the £ is up too!

Some very smart minds have obviously been very hard at work. Bravo!

So 'continued regulatory alignment' will only apply to NI, and not the rest of the UK.

Yep.... can't see her having a problem getting that one past everyone. Parliament will just rubber stamp that one for you Theresa 😆

Phew - looks like phase 2 can commence soon. Well done the grown ups. Despite all the **** going on around then they look like to have pulled of some sensible compromises here. Shame it took so long but not easy.

Good job that remoaners who claimed none of this would be possible look like they are being proved wrong. No wonder the £ is up too!

UK government endorse a United Ireland. (well kind of 🙂 )

Its gone exactly as I and most other remainers thought. Full on capitulation from May and co as the realisation that they can't have their cake and et it and a shafting of the DUP

If my chocolate supplier relocates from Dorset to ROI .What’s to stop him getting the chocs from Belgium and then shipping them via NI to me?

DUP (& hardcore Brexies) will moan & wail

But just like the Tories, they know if the government goes tits up they loose any influence, if they blow this they can kiss their 10bn and power goodbye...

Of course if the Tories had just conceded all this nine months ago (instead of making up their fantasy red lines- pretending that the lies of Brexit we're vaguely based in reality) we'd already be well into trade talks !

Good job that remoaners who claimed none of this would be possible look like they are being proved wrong. No wonder the £ is up too!

Looks like "remoaners" are the ones pointing out simple truths (ie in this case that NI must operate in both the SM & CU to keep the border much as it currently is) that understand "the possible" to me. Anyway… a close deal now looks possible… a few more bits of Brexiter thinking still to be expunged from the government's approach and we're on our way to a worse but not bad deal. Once we're there, and the realty doesn't match what people thought they were voting for… will they get a say before it's too late to try and keep our current good deal?

Full on capitulation = compromise on bill that means final payment will be close to existing payments but can be presented to Europeans as more. Very clever from both sets of grown ups. And probably the same when we seen the (lack of) details on the Irish border. Again very smart.

And finally on to trade so that the missing blanks can be filled in, in a sensible manner.

[url= http://newsthump.com/2017/12/03/we-should-tell-eu-to-stuff-their-divorce-bill-apart-from-the-bit-that-pays-my-pension-insists-nigel-farage/ ]We should tell EU to stuff their divorce bill[/url] apart from the bit that pays my pension, insists Nigel Farage

If Romania decides it’s not happy with the deal do we have to bribe them as well?
Then in turn every country on the mainland?

The first minister of Scotland has said exactly what you expect her to say… ignoring that there is no sea between Scotland and England, of course, but she still has a point… it is a political decision to not operate in the SM & CU… and not a wise one.

Full on capitulation = compromise on bill that means final payment will be close to existing payments but can be presented to Europeans as more. Very clever from both sets of grown ups. And probably the same when we seen the (lack of) details on the Irish border. Again very smart.

And finally on to trade so that the missing blanks can be filled in, in a sensible manner.

Usually I don't reply to THM's waffle but...what planet are you living on?

I hope we have managed to secure some protection for UK citizens in Europe too - the ones that so many were happy to abandon....

And finally on to trade so that the missing blanks can be filled in, in a sensible manner.

Edit - it's either planet troll or planet brexit, the air is a little hard to breath with the chain smoking brexiter in chief counting his pension.

Earth

Solid ground not remoaner BS

FFS, despite all the BS, the nutters and her own incompetence, May might have done something here. But better wait until this afternoon. As always the Devil's in the detail.

the ones that so many were happy to abandon....

Who are the "so many" ?

May might have done something here. But better wait until this afternoon. As always the Devils in the detail.

Alll true. Draft leak suggests that this is some kind of fall back position, rather than necessarily the end point. It is already the afternoon here though. Still hoping that this move is what it looks like… a close deal is a hell of a lot closer if it is. When will we know? Offical DUP statement is the first real moment to watch later this afternoon… their response is still unknown really (where as the Scottish response could have been predicted by anyone). Then it's a long wait to hear what UK gov ministers say when asked if they support the move...

Go backand read all the pages on making stupid unilateral declarations on the rights of EU citizens - take the moral high ground etc. - while ignoring the rights of UK citizens. With friends like these....

And read the newish thread in the challenges faced by UK citizens....good job that they haven't been abandoned

Angry with the wrong people again THM? Or just angry with everyone?

teamhurtmore - Member
Go backand read all the pages on making stupid unilateral declarations on the rights of EU citizens - take the moral high ground etc. - while ignoring the rights of UK citizens. With friends like these....

FFS, despite all the BS, the nutters and her own incompetence, May might have done something here. But better wait until this afternoon. As always the Devil's in the detail.

I think her power here is actully being so incredibly weak that the hardcore brexies, the DUP & even the saner Tories are so scared of tenuous Mays grip on power is that they have to be on board,

else itll be Corbs roasting his chestnuts on the fire at No 10 by xmas 😉

He just has a revisionist Trump like grasp on reality.

Angry??? I am smiling. Finally looks like progress (as expected). Compromises been made. And I am genuinely impressed at how both sides have dealt with the Bill. I expect some very smart work has gone in "behind the scenes" on Ireland too. As you say Mike and as I predicted there are some clever grown ups who know how to create a win:win or at least how to avoid a lose:lose.

For once, I am impressed by both May&Co and by the EU. If they keep this up, Brexshit will be even less damaging than I feared. Great news.

😛

Arlene Foster's about to speak at Stormont, apparently

Any idea what this could be about?

Do we get to wave our little flags yet?

For once, I am impressed by both May&Co and by the EU. If they keep this up, Brexshit will be even less damaging than I feared. Great news.

Foster about to make a statement outside Stormont

Nigels irony-meter seems to be malfunctioning again....

Nigel Farage
?
@Nigel_Farage

This UK Government’s bitter betrayal of 17.4 million people today is a concession too far, for it will lead to endless problems in Scotland and it damages the integrity of the United Kingdom.

1:51 PM - Dec 4, 2017

😆

I'm shit scared what happens to me if JC gets in, but support for Labour is helping move the Brexit talk slowly by steady towards SM & CU involvement for all the UK… and we are incrementally heading that way it seems… and once it's moved that far… it could yet move still further, towards delaying or stopping our exit from the EU… highly unlikely, but "possible". JC won't want that though, will he.

leads to an inflated sense of importance

[b]Leads[/b] you say? 🙂

Anyway, I was wondering what the DUP WhatsApp group is like right now but then again, they’d hardly use an app with a green icon would they?

Sounds like the DUP are not happy. No surrender etc.

Shot across the bows from Arlene.

Jesus wept, what a farce.

For once, I am impressed by both May&Co and by the EU.

I'd be more impressed if she hadn't been trying to throw her weight around like a drunken pub hooligan for months previously.

indeed kelvin we are securing our ACCESS to the EU on hopefully sensible terms

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The "terms" are everything, nearly every country in the world has "access" to the EU&EEA market.

Repeat repeat repeat.

Foster is shitting herself.

Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, is speaking now.

[b]She says the DUP would oppose anything that would lead to regulatory divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.[/b]

She says the DUP wants to see a sensible Brexit.

The Irish government claim to be guarantors of the Belfast agreement. But they are seeking to unilaterally change it, she says. She says the DUP will not stand for that.

Oh look.... another circle to square 😆

[img] [/img]

Foster is shitting herself.

Oh look.... another circle to square

Easy circle to square… all of UK currently in the SM & CU continue operating in both.

Earth

Solid ground not remoaner BS

FFS, despite all the BS, the nutters and her own incompetence, May might have done something here. But better wait until this afternoon. As always the Devil's in the detail.

She certainly has. Yet another spectacular mess from Maybot. And you are being willfully ignorant.

maybe Arlene needs to be reminded about Gay marriage and Abortion....

maybe Arlene needs to be reminded about Gay marriage and Abortion....

😆

try to fit in el-bent, try to fit in 😉

But appreciate that some positive news must be difficult to swallow

But appreciate that some positive news must be difficult to swallow

Why do you misrepresent people so badly? Are you incapable of understanding peoples position or do you just like lying?

Is the positive news that the UK government has come to the same conclusion that many folk on here came to 8 months ago?

[b]Yes. [/b]And if all true, is good news. Very positive.

The time lost is all down to internal politics, not "negotiations" with the EU.

I don't think I'd go so far as to say 'good' news. Maybe stupid.

Really really stupid news.

I think at this point we still have to wait and see what the real news is. Seems like just about everyone is trying to deny every leak that comes out, and none of the solutions satisfies the UK govt in its entirety let alone the backbenchers (which on a majority of 12 is a pretty serious matter).

She has no majority. The DUP, who she's dependent on, have said that there's not a chance they're supporting this - and given their antipathy to anything that 'unites' Ireland they won't be bluffing - so ultimately this is about as viable as David Davis's fairies in hot air balloons solution

I'm living in the hope that this is softening up the Tory headbangers for an announcement further down the line that the whole of the UK must remain in the single market and the customs union.

Lets be honest, anything short of carpet bombing Dressden will have those nutters screaming [b]BETRAYAL!!!![/b] anyway, whatever she does

Presumably if NI remains in the single market, it will need to pay contributions in just the same way that the UK and every other member does?

I wonder how much.
Will the NHS still get its £350M/week?

the DUP has millions of reasons to fall in line, and every one of them has the queen's head on it. the sticking point i see is the other regions demanding the same result. this could be the point at which the english's lack of an assembly might not help us. or maybe it will ( if you are a remainer ). if the regions can shout about how they voted to remain loud enough, there's no-one but westminster to defend the [s]wayward[/s] wishes of the english. CU and SM for all! 😀

Robert Pestons analysis:

[i]Now it is with that very last concession that the PM is taking the political risk of her life, because in that concession she is in effect saying that a trade deal for the whole UK will also be based on a promise of close regulatory alignment between our country and the EU, in perpetuity.

That permanent regulatory convergence between the UK and EU is her preferred route, because without it her government would collapse: Northern Ireland’s DUP MPs, which are sustaining the Tories in office, have made it crystal clear that they will not accept a separate regulatory set-up for Northern Ireland from that prevailing in the UK as a whole.

But here is what I assume will be scaring the PM witless (it scares me, just as a bystander). She is signing up for close regulatory alignment between the UK and EU without ever having secured agreement for that from the cabinet.

And for Johnson, Gove and most of the other more ardent Brexiteers, in and out of the Cabinet, almost the whole point of leaving the EU was for the UK to “take back control” of setting rules and regulations for British businesses.

If her own cabinet and backbench colleagues end up vetoing that offer, even if it is accepted by Juncker at today’s lunch, that would see the UK having no trade deal with the EU and being forced to reintroduce a peace-disrupting hard border with the Republic.[/i]

And in breaking news.....

[b]Taoiseach Leo Varadkar's statement of #Brexit has been postponed[/b]

This is all going great, isn't it?

Easy circle to square… all of UK currently in the SM & CU continue operating in both.

not so easy to square that particular circle within the tory party.

Seems like May has taken a leaf out of Priti Patels book and is just winging it, and making it up as she goes along 😆

those internal reports of the consequences of a hard #brexit must have scared the PM witless.

But appreciate that some positive news must be difficult to swallow

Difficult? Its bloody hilarious. WTF was she thinking?

But for you to keep coming on here to defend Brexit while having no answers to give. I appreciate that it must be difficult, so in sympathy for you: 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

Anyway back on topic: Piece by Piece, Brexit dies.

not so easy to square that particular circle within the tory party.

True, which is way I said she'll need Labour support to get it through parliament.
And if JC was PM, he'd probably need cross bench support as well.
The Brexitiers can put a hole in any "sensible" damage limitation approach ahead of us, whoever is PM.

I will admit to being a little disappointed as this progress does make the end goal of not leaving the EU a little harder to achieve.
I admit it makes leaving a little more palatable - but still unpalatable.

I trust the will of the people will be heard though and we will remain.

If we concede “regulatory alignment” in Ireland, and there can be no border within the UK, then surely this dramatically curtails scope for UK free trade agreements with others like US?

Peter Rickkets former head of foreign office

Anyway back on topic: Piece by Piece, Brexit dies

And you were doing so we'll until - "dies"

This is another step towards Brexshit happening.

Another easy compromise because despite what the nutters say, if you are exporting into a market you have to abide by their standards anyway. So a very easy compromise.

Trade soon....

igm - Member

I will admit to being a little disappointed as this progress does make the end goal of not leaving the EU a little harder to achieve.

Ah but it's a step towards a brexit that makes literally nobody happy. Huzzah!