How about giving Scotland membership of the EU tomorrow so that Frankfurt (Bundesbank) and Berlin can determine their future instead if Westminster. What's not to like? The EU is more important that the rUK after all.
Cleggis now saying that the British people must have a say on all the details. What planet does he live on??
Great idea, let's hold a referendum on each item which needs negotiating.
One vote on the final deal, not seperate votes on each detail.
It'll never happen anyway, because when we get the final deal, only a minority of Brits will consider it a better deal than staying in the EU. It won't look like the fantasies painted during the referendum campaign. The anti-EU tories will never take that risk… they can taste the blood now.
teamhurtmore - Member
Thank you - but I would prefer apples and apples ie, the U.K. and the EUNone, the BIll should simply state that we are going to/want to trigger A50
And that parliament gets to rattify the outcome in 2 years time.
I agree, nothing should be in it about negotiating positions.
It'll never happen, because when we get the final deal, only a minority of Brits will consider it a better deal than staying in the EU. It won't look like the fantasies painted during the referendum campaign.
The final deal is that is it or nothing. It's not exactly a choice is it?
Thank you Jloe, I fear that in his excitement or depair Mike has lost sight of what A50 is.
THM utter BS.
It isn't, if it is a short bill there is very little that can be amended, amendments have to relate to clauses of the Bill, you can't fly a kite.
On Scotland, I'd be gutted if they left… but remember… the vote to stay in the EU was won North of the border by a greater % than the vote to stay in the UK, worryingly. I don't think they will split the UK, but nothing is being done to reassure them by the UK government. Nothing at all.
Thornberry asked to define Lab position on Newsnight now
Missed with first go
Second go was not saying anything
Third?
It isn't, if it is a short bill there is very little that can be amended, amendments have to relate to clauses of the Bill, you can't fly a kite.
It's not been written yet.
It can be voted down for being wholly inappropriate for what it is being used for and re written.
This is not a dictatorship.
Third?
Sixth?
I bet it has been, they knew they were going to lose the SC decision.
Thornberry on FOM is hilarious. EVan having fun now.
Must be getting crowded under your bridge with Chewkw et al THM
Labour are truly desperate here. It's really rather sad.
It's not been written yet.
As THM says i think it has.
Who is going to vote it down?
Welcome Gordi, how nice to hear from you.
80-100 MPs (edit: against not down obviously)
And you,Hurtmore you haven't changed a bit
What a coincidence
@kimbers I used to work closely with Guy. He is a decent enough man but he basically blew up his fund with a terrible investment in EMI and then fought and lost a court case trying to hold Citibank responsible for bluffing him in the negotiation. Read into that and his Brexit predictions what you may.
on itv news , they said it would be presented on thursday .
Thornberry asked to define Lab position on Newsnight now
Watching it. Pathetic quite frankly. Labour are making a catastrophic mistake. Quite apart from the irony that a labour leadership who are supposed to represent something different to their predecessors, are following meekly in their footsteps in agreeing with the tories,. As with Iraq and other other ill-fated policies borne of false consensus, they're on the wrong side of the argument, and in many respects I have little doubt they'll suffer from it in future.
Who would want to be a politician? Despite appearances tonight, Thornberry is no fool. So what must she be thinking on her way home?
WTF am I doing looking a clown on national TV?
They are between a rock and a hard place - just like the LibDems in 2010, at risk of an oversimplification, the two sides of their internal coalition are split and there is no easy answer.
missed thornburry but Sun editor was right, this is going to take many many years
and i think be a drag on the country, in every area, economically, socially, education, healthcare, investment in infrastructure....
all will be neglected while this circle is squared
mefty - Member
They are between a rock and a hard place - just like the LibDems in 2010, at risk of an oversimplification, the two sides of their internal coalition are split and there is no easy answer.
true, but the answer is grow some balls and make a choice. Show some conviction.
gordimhor - Member
Must be getting crowded under your bridge with Chewkw et al THM
😆 ^^^
Really can you actually get an answer from Thornberry.
I was watching her on Question Time and she would go on and on and on and on ... without ever answering anything ... 😛
Labour are not split on europe in any great way - the vast majority back staying in the EU. the issue is some of the dullrds like Burns think by pandering to the tory press and playing the race card they might get more votes in the north of England. they should be leading public opinion on this but they are so weak and so in thrall to the tory press that they are unable to do so.
Kimbers - exactly - all the more reason to get on with it. It isn't going away.
Mikesmith - I am fortunate that I have an SNP mp so they will be representing my interests as strongly as they can do. 50 amendments lined up.
I suspect this will be a car crash. Labour will put amendments backing membership of the free trade area and remaining in eu institutions. that will only need a small amount of torys to rebel to be passed. The SNP will also produce amendments that will attact all other parties plus the majority of tory MPs who want to stay in the EU and again I wouldn't bet against a tory rebellion.
Why do you think May was so keen not to put this to parliament? - she knows her party is hopelessly divided on Europe 80 tories are ready to rebel.
salmond the political schemer willbe all over this like a rash and I will bet that some of the SNP amendments are designed to attract rebel tories - Folk like Clarke.
Kimbers - exactly - all the more reason to get on with it. It isn't going away.
We need delay. We've discussed why. May decided she could only risk 6 months of delay before triggering politically, but it's not just about kicking the can down the street… lots going on behind the scenes… we're not ready. It would be good to get things done and out of the way quickly, but "good" and "feasible" don't meet up on this one, despite some leading brexiters talking up a magical swift exit.
Business needs delay like a hole n the head. Be real.
We will never be "ready" - you never are - you are always dealing with incomplete information. Businesses know that.
We have laid out our position and red lines. Next step negotiate. It's not that hard. The hard bit is the execution later
We don't have the staff in place to negotiate yet.
Next step negotiate. It's not that hard. The hard bit is the execution later
Yep negotiation is easy. Go to the top of a hill, attach a rope to your car, release the brakes and set off towards the cliff. The other side decides when to stop you.
They are between a rock and a hard place
True, and I have some sympathy, but in situations like this being on the rational side of the argument always wins, irrespective of whatever short term tactical gains they think they might achieve. On the big issues people don't forget, or forgive very quickly. Thatcher learned this with the poll tax, Blair with Iraq, Nick Clegg on the coalition, and I eventually Corbyn/labour on Brexit. They have nothing to gain by supporting it, and everything to lose in the long term.
We don't need delay - we need some politicians with spines to stop this absurd destructive nonsense
I think you fears are unfounded. Labour will be forgotten on Brexshit or merely dismissed as irrelevant
Look ^ people are already equating Brexshit and the Tories. Labour just has to endure their turn in purdah while the Tories do their thing on Europe.
teamhurtmore - Member
Kimbers - exactly - all the more reason to get on with it. It isn't going away.
it was always going to be a dogs dinner...
NHS, education, housing crisis, heathrow decision, hinkley decision, child abuse nvestigation, the last 30 years (that ive beenaware of politics) has shown us that every major issue becomes a political football caught between parliamentary egos, an unchecked press, monied interests and Brexit obviously meaning Brexit which means different things to everyone
Ive managed to find a projection of what the initial discussions on Brexit within government will look like, thats before we even get to the fabled negotiation stage
Labour will be forgotten on Brexshit or merely dismissed as irrelevant
Until they try to fight an election on the basis of the tories failure on brexit, at which point the tories will shout 'but you supported it too'.
There is nothing to negotiate. We will get the crumbs the rest of the EU offer us. thats it. We hold no cards, we have nothing to offer. they have already written us off. There is no incentive or reason for anyone in the EU to give us any sort of deal
And by the way, the really important issue is that people are still using referenda when I explained pages ago why it is completely wrong, which makes it about the only thing in this whole debate of which that can be said.
[i]Mr Williams said any EU deal must allow the company to move its products and workers around Europe, including at short notice and without restrictions.
The UK government has indicated it may try to make special arrangements for key sectors such as aerospace.
[/I]
Hmm, so if your business (or type of business) isn't seen as 'important' or 'critical' it'll be tough, deal with it yourself.
Or to look at it another way, no subsidy (either cash or favours).
BR - and you think the rest of the EU will stand for that? Well they might for airbus but not for other industries and even for airbus I bet the rest will just grab that wing building contract.
NO pick an d choose remeber. accept the 4 freedoms in full or get nothing.
I take it that when Parliament vote for article 50, all the whingers who were harping on about the referendum being advisory, and about parliamentary supremacy, will be silenced, and fully accept that leaving the EU is the democratically mandated choice of the country?
Yeah, thought so...