[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Well, once these "bespoke" deals are actually fleshed out, whatever form they take, they won't please a majority of "the people", will they?

they won't please a majority of "the people", will they?

I have no idea. But negotiations normally involve compromises on both sides and given that I do not support the “thicko narrative” I expect most people will have the capacity to understand this.

So far, this is what is happening. So a bad deal is being made better. Not good but better. So let’s hope this continues. In that context, a good week

Sad but not unexpected that Sturgeon ( remember her) still talking about “in” the single market today. Why can’t these people understand the basics?

Membership of v access to

Cmon wee nippy. Repeat 200x and it might sink in. Then you can learn about how currencies work Treat Brexshit as a learning experience instead of repeating BS

Membership of v access to

Membership of vs operating in.

"Access" means anything, including WTO rules only.

Do we want full tariff free access? Or full tariff free access excluding farm and fish products? Or quota limited tariff free access? Or ariff access only? Same regulatory bodies? Full mutual recognition of standards? Limited recognition of each other's standards?

negotiations normally involve compromises on both sides

There is no doubt there has been movement but only from one side.

Cmon wee nippy.

It is one of the “off the shelf” four kelvin correct. Not a good one, but one nevertheless. We knew that.

Wow that’s a lot of editing to keep on top of 😉 and a lot of questions to put on a ballot paper ! 😉

Pleased to see that you cut the break short BTW.

Indeed… saying we want "access not membership" is as meaningless as Brexit means Brexit, and bespoke deal…it is leaned on by people masking the lack of plan beyond "leaving the EU".

On the contrary it is the crux. Do I need to link the explanation for a hundredth time?

repeating BS

p'rhaps you'd have a word with your mate about that, now he's back? 😉

😉

I do regularly !!

😆

Do I need to link the explanation for a hundredth time?

Everything other than "membership" is "access" … so meaningless.

The highest politican in Scotland is right to want to keep her country, and ours, operating in the Single Market. We would not be members, no, but we could operate in it and benefit from tariff free access and standards harmonisation. Not where we will end up, I suspect, and a worse position than being a full member, but hey… damage limitation.

The end result will be seen as worse than EU membership by well over half "the people", so their "will" won't be tested by any kind of UK wide vote or poll.

Sad but not unexpected that Sturgeon ( remember her) still talking about “in” the single market today. Why can’t these people understand the basics?

60% of her constituency voted to remain. She has a clear democratic mandate to pursue our continued membership. Remember, she's the [b]Scottish[/b] First Minister. She is perfectly at liberty to reject the English vote (as it was an English vote).

Funny how you criticise yer mate Corbyn (at infinite and tedious length) for saying nothing and Sturgeon for the opposite. Make your mind up please. It's almost like you're just trolling... what currency do you get paid in?

Why can't YOU respect democracy for a change, will of the people and all that. Seen as you're such an advocate.

You know, I think I've reluctantly become a supporter for Scottish independence.

Well done, go ask for a bonus.

Do we want full tariff free access? Or full tariff free access excluding farm and fish products? Or quota limited tariff free access? Or ariff access only? Same regulatory bodies? Full mutual recognition of standards? Limited recognition of each other's standards?

Come , come kelvin, it was all perfectly clear in the in/out referendum slip. There's no point in moaning now. We just have to get on with it... the people have [i]spoken[/i] 😯

I do regularly !!

You need to watch that, it's one of the first signs of madness...

Why can't YOU respect democracy for a change, will of the people and all that....You know, I think I've reluctantly become a supporter for Scottish independence

the best today. Bravo !

The highest politican in Scotland is right to want to keep her country, and ours, operating in the Single Market.

That is what all the leaders are advocating. Some using the correct language and understanding others less so. The lovely Ms Sturgeon is in the latter camp but factual accuracy has never been her forte

is in the latter camp but factual accuracy has never been her forte

Perhaps he just despises in others his own shortcomings...like the way he lecture us on politeness and accuracy and then does that

Then again he might just be a troll...neither option is that positive...careful now he will cal us a posse of bullies soon [ not now i have said it 😉 ]

Whisper it gently, we are not going to make a success of Breakfast, sorry Brexit.

At least not with idiots like David, Borris and Liam around. JRM doesn’t help either.

Four freedoms as a minimum.

says the man caught not being factually accurate yesterday

Not just yesterday.

Not just yesterday

And not just 'might' 😉

“Whistle”

“Whistle”

IGM this week we had progress despite the nutters.

We lost the vote on the freedoms sadly if you remember 😉

Might be time for #thmfact if this continues.

Imagine that thm, your very own STW meme. 😀

Little things...

Oh dear.

Best leave you to it. Don’t want another emabarrassing outburst like we had last weekend.

😉
....
[sic]
Etc.

QED 😉

That does not even make sense as DD has never had a melt down on here
Still you hide behind your infamous sense of humour there zokesboy

Well THM we lost a vote 18 months ago, we won the vote previous to that, the future is as yet unwritten.

It is indeed

Actually it’s written very clearly indeed, but some of you illiterates can't read it.

@kilo just checking back. This is what I watched, JRM is on the committee

BTW the whole piece is spot on from JRM and Tim from UnHerd (excellent website imho). The Remainer is quite wrong that Leavers didn’t vote for global trade agreements. Those are exactly what I voted for.

Do we want full tariff free access? Or full tariff free access excluding farm and fish products? Or quota limited tariff free access? Or ariff access only? Same regulatory bodies? Full mutual recognition of standards? Limited recognition of each other's standards?

Kelvin May’s 11 point letter was quite clear. Our priorities are services and manufacturing. Services are tariff free under WTO but non tariff bariers exist (eg on financial services) so an agreement is usefuo. Agriculture is not a UK priority in terms of an EU trade deal but one that the EU might care about. Also note JRM in the interview above who suggests the UK could just set it’s WTO import tariffs to zero on agriculture unilaterally and then support farmers as necessary. I have proposed we do that on cars and car components already - just set tariffs to zero.

The EU is a protectionist body, it is not going to give carte blanche recognition to UK standards and I doubt they’ll even partially recognise much from the UK. It’s not their DNA. If we want to sell to them we will do so to their standards and we will sell to others at different standards. If its more profitable to sell to others we’ll focus on that at the “expense”of less business with the EU. It’s a commercial decision. Given where 90% of the world’s growth lies I know where I am focusing.

Sweatshops in the far east?

Deal or No Deal. The Options.

Speech by David Campbell Bannerman (Conservative MEP and ex Kipper) on trade deals and with his proposal of a SuperCanada option for the UK (he worked on the Canada deal)

[url= http://www.dcbmep.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DCB_SUPERCANADA_CETA.pdf ]Outline Trade Deal[/url]

But if we set our own tarrifs to zero won't other WTO members object?

Trade war with Trump (well Pence after Meullers done) anyone?

Before the ref the Brexiters were telling us this would be the easiest trade deal in history, that we'd hold all the cards, TNUMTWNT, that we'd wouldn't follow the EUs negotiation schedule, that we wouldn't loose the EMA + EBA, thatd never pay a 50bn exit bill, that we'd escape the evil clutches of the ECJ.....

Why should we start believing the Brexies now?

TRAITOR

Spoke to some Germans recently it is their wish to be the one in charged. The EU bureaucratic system (to them) is just a smoke screen for political union/dominance nothing else (economy union long gone). They knew they would master the system sooner or later but in the meantime they just let the economy argument continues.

With UK soon to be out of the EU bureaucratic system, UK will keep their system in check which they don't like.

When I asked the Germans why not give the £50 billion (assuming this amount) to Greece to help them, you should see their facial expression. Basically, they did not think it would be a good idea. If £50 billion is to share amongst the EU nations it would be less than £2 billion per nation. However, I suspect the amount will not be distributed but will be used to raise the first EU bureaucratic military force.

The decision for UK to leave the EU bureaucratic is a right one.

As for the "social engineers" this is one thing they cannot understand. Luckily. 😆

Here it comes... Mays ECJ redline falls away...

[img] [/img]

And Brexit leaves the UK a taker rather than contributor to EU law.

Tories so shit scared of Corbyn that they can only make empty noises of complaint.

Chewy - you're now pushing your 'social engineers' on this thread; for all of the dim-witted on here, me specifically, can you explain what you mean by 'social engineers' and, by extension, 'social engineering'.

From many of your comments on various threads you are perfectly capable of communicating clearly - despite you attempts to adopt faux migrant english and to give the impression you're from the far east.

We know that Brant of this parish has had dealings with you and would not trust you.

Over to you - troll.

Jamba - sadly Kippers, even ex-Kippers, are by definition traitors to the UK.

Chewkw - good to have you back. Now that piece of trolling, in so far as I can decipher it, isn’t even consistent within itself. Draft and redraft before trolling kid.

I dont get it Jambalaya , I though tariff were going to bring millions of pounds into uk coffers , but if they are set at zero , it is not going to work is it ?

I don't understand the objection to the ECJ determining trade disputes. Someone has to. WTO has its ADR procedure and many other foreign co's have a London seat of arbitration or subject their contractual arrangements to English/Welsh law. I guess the objection is simply because they are the ECJ rather than their ability to resolve disputes.

It's all part of that particular Brexit non sequitur about sovereignty of the UK.

It's a brilliant bit of jingoistic rabble rousing that obviously gets the voters out, even if they don't have the vaguest idea how it affects them.

frankconway - Member
Chewy - you're now pushing your 'social engineers' on this thread; for all of the dim-witted on here, me specifically, can you explain what you mean by 'social engineers' and, by extension, 'social engineering'.

From many of your comments on various threads you are perfectly capable of communicating clearly - despite you attempts to adopt faux migrant english and to give the impression you're from the far east.

We know that Brant of this parish has had dealings with you and would not trust you.

igm - Member
Chewkw - good to have you back. Now that piece of trolling, in so far as I can decipher it, isn’t even consistent within itself. Draft and redraft before trolling kid.

I want to have some light-hearted moments with many of the STWers (if that is the correct expression - adding "ers") but I cannot. 😛

That's actually a rather accurate account of my conversation with some intellectual Germans few days ago. 😆

I better get off this thread now.

Tony Blair’s 12 point plan to stop Brexit courtesy of Austin Mitchell. This must be a spoof surely (?) but made me laugh for sure

http://brexitcentral.com/tony-blairs-secret-memo-alastair-campbell-12-point-plan-stopping-brexit/

I don't understand the objection to the ECJ determining trade disputes.

Me neither but it should be a choice, so you can choose UK or ECJ law as part of your commerical agreement with your business partner. For example if we sell something to the EU it makes sense to me ECJ is the artibter. If they sell something to us it’s UK law. It’s the latter example where its controversial - no ECJ to apply inside the UK unless UK business/individual specifically agrees

would be interesting to see how that compares with his actual writing style, given the 12 point plan doesn't really manage to come up with a strategy for stopping brexit but more a list of Thm's posts from here.

Anyway you still need to get us that list of WTO only countries 😉

How many things will the UK give up on before you think it's a bad idea?

This must be a spoof surely (?)

Don’t mention the war, Germany or the euro. Your skill at putting a first-class case for second-rate policies served us well in the old days before Gordon messed it all up

Its not even that funny as an article so its not worth the effort of reading

Chris that’s a fair point but there are lots of options, I am in favour of zero tariffs on some things (like cars and components). Some (like Adam Smith Institute) are more in favour of absolute free trade, I am somewhere in the middle - I think farming needs some protection for example but not in areas where we don’t grow/produce and not in seasonal items (eg we don’t produce tomatoes in January so they can come from say Morocco tax free)

(eg we don’t produce tomatoes in January so they can come from say Morocco tax free)

So the state of play appears to me that May and co are now promising the EU everything and anything and crossing all the red lines to get a [i]chance [/i]of trade talks and a transition period.

ECJ will still have a role to play in transition, hard border in the Irish sea. Pay up front without conditions.

Now will she be able to get any of that through parliament?

perditus - Member

I don't understand the objection to the ECJ determining trade disputes.

Its not rational. The xenophobes just hate the ECJ because of a few judgements over the years and a campaign in the press

Politicians hate anyone telling them they cannot do something ,when that someone is a "foreigner" they hate them even more
In the case of the PM she hates them because they kept telling her not to violate the rights of prisoners/the accused.

brexit but more a list of Thm's posts from here.

What an odd comment (other than an indication of making stuff up yet again.)

Almost as odd as...

So the state of play appears to me that May and co are now promising the EU everything and anything

Do people simply ignore the news either intentionally or not?

I don't know if I would agree that it's the current state of play, but it's definitely the direction we're heading in.

Do people simply ignore the news either intentionally or not?

Good to see Nige wants nothing at all to do with the EU
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-42213947/nigel-farage-it-s-not-hypocrisy-to-take-eu-pension
[img] [/img]

Nige says why should his family suffer.

While I will agree that being related to him is grounds for not suffering anymore but that is a matter for social services.... His principles in this matter sum up brexit completely you suffer I won't.

and almost on time as if the leaked letter was meant to undermine this...
What Tony Blair says on an Irish border
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42213623

The Good Friday Agreement is "at risk because of Brexit" after the UK leaves the EU, former prime minister Tony Blair has told the BBC.
UK and Irish membership of the EU was "central" to the 1998 deal, he told BBC Radio 4's The World This Weekend.
Free movement on the border had been key to reaching an agreement, he said.

Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg insisted the UK government was opposed to reintroducing a hard border - but said the Irish government or EU could make a "political choice" to impose one.
He told the BBC's Andrew Marr: "If the Irish and EU wish to impose a border that would be a matter for them, but they don't have to do it, it is a question of political choice."

chewkw - Member
Spoke to some Germans recently it is their wish to be the one in charged. The EU bureaucratic system (to them) is just a smoke screen for political union/dominance nothing else (economy union long gone). They knew they would master the system sooner or later but in the meantime they just let the economy argument continues.

[img] [/img]

"If we don't back Theresa May, we will have [b]no Brexit[/b]"

That's the words of a government minister. Today. Interesting.

https://twitter.com/pestononsunday/status/937282500572807169

Anyone here got a solution to the N.I. border issue?

With the insistence that we leave the Customs Union I am bereft of workable solutions.

And remember "[i]workable solutions[/i]" should exclude anything that would end up with us losing WTO complaint cases, ideally. We are trying to increase, not decrease, our nonEU trade, allegedly...

kelvin - Member
"If we don't back Theresa May, we will have no Brexit"
That's the words of a government minister. Today. Interesting

Don't tell the swivel-eyed Brexiters that,

Now that their lie has been exposed as fantasy - that Brexit would be easy & the EU would be begging us for a deal....

They are now busy saying that WTO would be better, knowing that it's never going to happen so that when the damage of Brexit is laid bare they can see say it wasn't their fault .

Undermining May & the country less important than protecting their reps/egos

Pig face I would suggest we wait until we know the terms of our future access to the SM and CU then it should become clearer. Bit silly to be definitive before we know that.

Pigface - Member

Anyone here got a solution to the N.I. border issue?

With the insistence that we leave the Customs Union I am bereft of workable solutions.

It would appear to be hard border in the Irish sea and shaft the DUP

Surely our future access to SM and CU depends to a large extent on finding a suitable NI border solution?

But here's a thought. If we go for the no deal option, who would be responsible for the border? Us or the EU? If the swivel-eyed loons want closed borders to keep out Johnny Foreigner then presumably it would be incumbent on us to build a wall?

Shouldn't the solution to the Irish border inform that new relationship in some way? I know both the UK and EU teams have said that shouldn't happen, but hey, they can both be wrong. Still waiting for an outline solution, never mind something definitive.

mikewsmith - Member

And unicrons

OK, that does sound worse than a bad deal

[img] [/img]

who would be responsible for the border? Us or the EU?

Given the amount of goods that could be smuggled into the UK to avoid tax, it would be more important for the UK to secure the border. I don't think either entity is particularly liable, but the UK would stand to lose out more..

If there's no hard border I envisage a lot of dubious distribution centers being set up on the Irish side.

People voted to leave because of immigration. So the UK will be the country putting up the wall across the border. Anything else would be a betrayal of Brexit.

They voted for Brexit for a myriad of diverse reason from bringing back control to stopping Muslims getting here
Betrayal is a strong word especially when misrepresenting/overstating why everyone voted a specific way
Certainly immigration was a factor , especially for the racist brexit voter , but it was not the critical reason for all voters

They voted for Brexit for a myriad of diverse reason from bringing back control to stopping Muslims getting here

[img] [/img]

I wonder what Farage thought it was about?

[img] ?w=748&h=498&crop=1[/img]

🙂

We should just have a stupid-lying-brexit-poster face-off.

😆