Jamba you say they couldn't see what the EU had given people and the long list of negatives.
What are the negatives, immigration aside? As has been proven immigration is beneficial. What are the other negatives, reclaiming our sovereignty ??? The leavers I have spoken/argued with can't even define what that is. Let alone how getting it back will effect us.
The Environment has been so improved by EU legislation, do you think we would have Otters in every county with out that legislation.
As far as I'm concerned this 3-line whip is not a lot different to the lib dems selling themselves out by joining the coalition.
Ironically, they'll be the likely benefactors for most, I reckon. I've certainly said I'd never vote for them again before now.
Lib dems will enjoy a huge surge in support at the next GE...
Yes but that will just wipe out labour. Not that I'm shedding any tears for them, but it won't help the country.
Jamba is no fool. Disagree with him all you like (you may have noticed I do), accuse him of assertion as fact, bending facts and generally being misleading if you wish, but ignore him at your peril. His sort of thinking will destroy this country.
The best method of combating his continual negativity is to throw up the positives of the EU, from daughters (DrJ) to electrical interconnectors.
Strangely I suspect I'd quite like him in real life - but then I enjoy an argument.
If a person does not have the intelligence to work out decisions such as EU membership, they are at the mercy of press, populism, what someone tells them etc,. Not their own fault.
They still have a choice. They can listen to others or make their own minds up. We are all alone in the polling both (apart from the parties in there with us! 😉 )
However, as it is a democratic country they have as much say as everyone else which only becomes dangerous when a referendum is allowed...
So what do you do then - respect their right to have a say or not. Why is that dangerous?
Cougs - i did notice the word "typically" in your definition ie, RG is one form of democracy it is not synonymous with democracy.
How can TM be pushing for a hard brexshit. She has stated many times that there is no such thing. Brexshit is Brexshit (its only the colours that matter!!!)
Strangely I suspect I'd quite like him in real life - but then I enjoy an argument.
You would, he's very nice
(despite ^ 😉 )
I'm afraid the best method of dealing with him is realising that he's an inconsequential anonymous poster on a mountain bike forum, and a particularly farcical one at that.
Sure, occasionally inconsequential nobodies can have severe effects in real life, and the king of those has to be Farage, but thankfully those people are very very rare. Personally I don't give Jamby that much credit. If anyone thinks this is playing the man and not the ball, I'd respectfully suggest that his comments over the last 600 pages make it clear that he has no intention of presenting a ball to play.
and yet zokes you seem to be drawn like a moth to a flame...
and yet zokes you seem to be drawn like a moth to a flame...
Not really, just making a statement on his modus operandi. I scroll past most of his guff unless I'm really bored.
That seems q often!
That seems q often!
I think I'm a bit overdone with all the T20 cricket on TV down here, and now the TDU too. Heaven forbid I'd have to talk to my wife otherwise 😀
His sort of thinking will destroy this country.
Watch Braindead on Amazon for a good illustration of this!
Jam's definitely a bugman.
Strangely I suspect I'd quite like him in real life - but then I enjoy an argument.
I've oft thought much the same. Always comes across as a good guy, one of the people on here I'd like to meet, and is knowledgeable in some areas (Apple stuff springs to mind) - but it's getting to a point where almost every "factual" post is a guide for what not to do. It's like STW's equivalent of a promoted post on Facebook.
Cougs - i did notice the word "typically" in your definition ie, RG is one form of democracy it is not synonymous with democracy.
Right. I'm not really sure how it matters, though. If I've understood you correctly it's like I'm describing a citrus fruit and you're arguing that it's not a citrus fruit but a grapefruit.
You didn't but no matter 🙂
I bet when it does "matter" those who voted for self harm will be quick to blame others - ironically May who is doing what they wanted, not what she wanted - because its tough taking individual responsibility when blaming others is so much easier!
I can sympathise with that view THM
What are the negatives, immigration aside? As has been proven immigration is beneficial. What are the other negatives, reclaiming our sovereignty ???
A question I've often asked.
Can any Brexiteer actually give a definitive example of how the EU has made their life worse? Completely excluding jingoist flag waving, xenophobia or racism, can they actually say how it's made life worse in the UK?
Reclaiming sovereignty is BS and a bid steaming pile of it at that.
Its also disingenuous to argue that you are restoring sovereignty AND looking to enhance trade globally
as the briefing that I linked to early noted
The notion that a country can have complete regulatory sovereignty while engaging in comprehensive free trade is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of free trade
You're going to have to either explain what you're getting at then or just accept that when I'm talking about "democracy" I'm talking about democracy as we have it in the UK rather than any broader church that may be implemented slightly differently in other parts of the world. As far as I can tell, in this context, they are one and the same thing.
If I'm wrong you'll need to elaborate because it's beyond my understanding and I don't know what else you could be getting at.
Can any Brexiteer actually give a definitive example of how the EU has made their life worse?
All I've ever heard is headline style rhetoric, and I've tried. They're "meddling in our affairs" and "forcing rules on us," but when asked to give examples they can't. Or if they can it's trivial or nonsense, like the colour of the passport, bent bananas and the royal crest on pint glasses.
The subject of this thread - a referendum on membership of the EU
So just checking Jamby still not back to answer the questions... Must be on his way to the Trump party then (redacted I've been to the pub)
Brexit is going to be the making of a new, modern and outward looking United Kingdom.
Gazing out over the channel for the telltale signs of Spanish galleons.
It that the buccaneering spirit the Brexies were recommending S.O.M.?
What's absurd is that we always give up freedoms and/or pay money to get benefits. We pay taxes and live by laws, so that the laws and state can protect us. We pay subscriptions to clubs so that we can get benefits. Leavers have assumed that we get nothing back from the EU. I don't know why they can't see this.
i think many of them thought they could still get the thing they wanted - trade or the economic benefits thereof- without actually bothering with any of the other requirements of the club
TM still seems to think this is possible if they don't "punish us"
I don't know why they can't see this.
They don't think the benefits are worth the subscription fee. It is just a different viewpoint.
Do they know what the benefits really are though?
have they tried looking them up, mol?
My team have mostly voted Leave.
I'm leaving the UK for reasons other than Brexit but there's a real possibility that I would have had to leave the UK Because of Brexit. ( not qualifying for a visa).
My position is not going to be filled and the whole section will be taken over by contracting company. My team will be Tuped with much worse conditions that they have now.
Bonkers!
Do they know what the benefits really are though?
No one does.
We pay subscriptions to clubs so that we can get benefits. Leavers have assumed that we get nothing back from the EU. I don't know why they can't see this.
Oh, we know we get [i]something[/i] back
We just dont think that its value for money, taking into account what we get in return and what goes with it
I don't know why you can't see this?
Going back to France Chris?
Oh, we know we get something back
What do you think we get back then? Honestly.
Some of the money that we hand over, freedom to trade with our neighbours, collaboration and shared effort on a number social and economic issues and the ability to live and work on the continent.
Some of them I'm more bothered about than others, some of them are mixed blessings, some of them we already had without having to enter into the rest.
Now, what do you think are the costs, honestly?
Yes.
Benefits?
Freedom of movement
Freedom of trade
Scientific cooperation
Military cooperation
ninfan - Member
Now, what do you think are the costs, honestly?
Negative over all
Some of the money that we hand over, freedom to trade with our neighbours, collaboration and shared effort on a number social and economic issues and the ability to live and work on the continent.
A lot of people think that increased ease and lower costs of trade actually generates more money than we pay in. So in simple money terms we get back more than we pay in.
Do you agree?
By a country mile
Military cooperation
Really? Very much a French point of view, as they have never liked the US influence in Nato, hence the 30 year soujourn from the Command Structure.
A lot of people think that increased ease and lower costs of trade actually generates more money than we pay in. So in simple money terms we get back more than we pay in.Do you agree?
No, because we already had free trade prior to the creation of the EU (along with the associated acceptance of the second and third pillars) and the subsequent rounds of EU expansion and Lisbon treaty.
The EU we are now a member of bears little comparison with trade organisation that we originally joined, and many of us would have been more than happy if it had stayed that way.
The biggest issue of course, is that I don't think Trade, EU membership, nor its costs and benefits, can be measured in "simple money terms"
Now, as I asked you above - what do you think the costs are, honestly?
Trade expanded significantly both with EU and non-EU countries (see my earlier link) including c'wealth countries
The cost is a rounding error
Plus many non monetary benefits too
If it can't be measured in monetary terms, how can you be sure that it isn't worth it? Those two assertions would be mutually exclusive I'd have thought.
350m a week?
Ninfan - I gave my honest answer on the costs (negative overall) so we can put that aside.
What are you advocating though? A return to to 1970s, to the EEC? Be positive for a change. You are coming across like Oscar Wilde's description of a cynic. Or are you a sentimental nationalist? 😉
what do you think the costs are, honestly?
It's about a penny for every pound paid in tax.