Not if you read what he said rather than what was cherry picked by the papers.

followed him on twitter, I very much enjoyed what he said

sadly He deleted his twitter account (just as Vote Leave did to try & hide their lies)

fortunately the internetz is cool at keep tings, so ive cherry picked some stuff for you

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but youre right it was probably all spin by those naughty journos

https://jonworth.eu/dominic-cummings-odysseanproject-deletes-twitter-account-piecing-back-together/

[quote=airtragic ]
Agree with this, but don't you think a lot of young graduates voted remain, without fully understanding the implications, because all their friends were? Probably not in the same numbers, of course!

The one major thing a university education gives you is the ability to critically analyse information provided to you, not to just accept it as [i]de facto[/i].

I don't deny he wrote those things. I followed him, it is a great shame he has left Twitter because he was a great source for interesting reading. However, he went on the record pretty early saying he felt the government was mishandling the negotiating, which was picked up by the press saying, and I paraphrase, "Vote Leave head thinks Brexit is a disaster". However, what they failed to report was that he went on to say he was still happy about the vote as the Exit Deal is a sideshow in comparison with the structural change that can be achieved post Brexit which will more than make up for the shortcomings of any deal.

I was going to post this at the time it was reported but I couldn't be bothered on that occasion.

However, what they failed to report was that he went on to say he was still happy about the vote as the Exit Deal is a sideshow in comparison with the structural change that can be achieved post Brexit which will more than make up for the shortcomings of any deal.

he went on to say he was still happy about the vote as the Exit Deal is a sideshow in comparison with the structural change that [s]can[/s] could be achieved post Brexit which [s]will[/s] could more than make up for the shortcomings of any deal.

and iirc that he didnt think that those in power had the nous to carry out those changes,
obviously it was only the towering intellect of dominic cummings (or possibly the guy that managed the Apollo program) could pull it off,
hubris much?

meanwhile US banks warning Trump about a chaotic brexit.... how arse-backward is that!
[img] [/img]

https://www.ft.com/content/2dec32be-c3e3-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656

Ah, beaten to it by kimbers.

and iirc that he didnt think that those in power had the nouse to carry out those changes, infact it was only the towering intellect of dominic cummings (or possibly the guy that managed the Apollo program) could pull it off, hubris much?

I know he's great, really enjoy his strident views. Whilst I am certainly not a disciple some of the problems he identifies I have certainly come across. Historically, the Civil Service has been more interested in policy than implementation so the people who get to the top are policy people. One of the interesting arguments made on here is that we could have done much more to alleviate the issues raised by imported EU policy by introducing restrictions that were within the rules. However, we rarely seem to have done this, unlike other members. Some accuse us of gilding the lily Could this be because as the policy has been sorted, the higher echelons are not interested? A suggestion is emerging that Brexit is bringing about cultural change at the Home Office, you've got George Monbiot saying Michael Gove is the Secretary of State he has been waiting for. maybe more of the same will follow and that may serve the country well.

Well said. More inconvenient facts hence the desperate need to bully and intimidate others who disagree

Same old culprits as always.

[img] [/img]

Plus, that's a pretty noisy graph, I think the right-hand half of the line is struggling a bit!

If accurate, that graph is actually an amazingly strong trend for any biological observation, never mind sociological.

And more bad news for May and co - obvious to anyone whith half a brain of course. Still no significant progress on any of the 3 major stumbling blocks, cliff edge appproaching fast

The British government has less than a month to make a concession on the Brexit bill in order to guarantee launching trade talks in December, the Guardian understands.

Senior officials in Brussels say talks have stalled since Theresa May’s Florence speech and warn the EU will find it difficult to agree to trade talks at a December summit unless the prime minister offers more on the Brexit divorce settlement.

There remains “a lot to do on financial obligations”, Italy’s Europe minister Sandro Gozi said on Tuesday, after meeting the Brexit secretary, David Davis, in Rome.

Which is nicely encapsulated in this thread by the fact that anyone disagreeing with the pervasive view is called a troll.

Not at all. tiresomebore is labelled a troll because he steadfastly refuses to engage in any discussion or provide any information or argment, and contributes only gnomic utterances and sneering.

Worth noting that despite his unpleasant views, ninfan has been known to put his hand in his pocket to help struggling stw''ers, and not just to send his pals a P.

Fortunately those blessed with more than half a brain - including the Chancellor of Germany - know that this is not the case and that finally we may start discussing the real issues in December. That is unless the EU decide to play silly games again but I doubt it - far too much to lose and not enough time to get organised. Their games have to end eventually.

Dr - nice excuse for real laziness. It takes < 2 mins to know the full details of our negotiating team and a little bit longer to learn more about the quality of the team behind them it's not difficult unless you want to deliberately misrepresent the truth.

However, much more fun to watch these people - including former ambassadors - be abused by Internet bullies instead as then everyone can see how crass their (the bullies) arguments are. Daily posts of stuff that can be falsified in less than the time it takes to say " you really are making this up."

The tag team are doing a great job at keeping the comedy levels up which is much better than the real news which is rather dull ie, we will be finally start proper trade discussions in next two months after far too much unnecessary willy waving on both sides

Dr - nice excuse for real laziness. It takes < 2 mins to know the full details of our negotiating team and a little bit longer to learn more about the quality of the team behind them it's not difficult unless you want to deliberately misrepresent the truth.

All very interesting but that was not my question. Still, on with the sneering.

[quote=tjagain ]
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/07/brexit-eu-warns-uk-it-has-less-than-a-month-to-make-concessions
br />

To be fair, it is November 8th and you wouldn't imagine talks taking place around Christmas, so that's not really news

“yourguitarhero - Member
airtragic »
Agree with this, but don't you think a lot of young graduates voted remain, without fully understanding the implications, because all their friends were? Probably not in the same numbers, of course!
The one major thing a university education gives you is the ability to critically analyse information provided to you, not to just accept it as de facto.”

I know a lot of young graduates. I am one (ish). I think you’re over-egging this particular pudding; students are no more immune to their own groupthink and social norms than any other group of people! I think this accounts for a little bit of Junkyard’s graph.

To be fair, it is November 8th and you wouldn't imagine talks taking place around Christmas, so that's not really news

Didn't DD & May say we'd have them in December?

Anyway the view of smug remain voters that they are more intelligent than leave voters provides a convenient fig leave to hid the fact they couldn't mount a sufficiently persuasive argument to convince their fellow citizens.

I agree about the failure to put up and win a persuasive argument, although it still rankles that the counter was basically lies, but that's a bus shaped argument we've done to death.

But having accepted that, doesn't change the fact that it's still a ****ing stupid thing to leave the EU and is becoming more apparent day by day.

So all this 'it's your own fault for not putting a better argument forward' and 'will of the people' comments are basically posh ways of saying 'leave won, you lost, get over it' which when the prize is a trip off the cliff in a bus with a lie painted on the side on it is about as daft as it gets.

Didn't DD & May say we'd have them in December?

and the troops home by Christmas.

re "Groupthink" at university… the variety of people, from different countries, different political views, different wealth backgrounds, different life experiences, was far far greater at the university I went to than it was back in the rural area I grew up in, and would probably have stayed in if I hadn't gone on to do a degree. Don't want you views, opinions and prejudices challenged? Don't go to university.

Those who talk about university groupthink are just upset by reality's well-known left wing bias.

re "Groupthink" at university… the variety of people, from different countries, different political views, different wealth backgrounds, different life experiences, was far far greater at the university I went to than it was back in the rural area I grew up in,

have to agree with that

Id describe uni as a melting pot and inside my biochemistry lectures politics was never mentioned once!
nor was it outside, tbh things like 50p a shot, traffic light disco & when was that essay supposed to be in were far hotter topics

Fortunately those blessed with more than half a brain

Don't do yourself down. Amongst the sneer and the evidence-free claims I'd like to think you're in the top 1-2% of Brexit supporters.

we will be finally start proper trade discussions in next two months after far too much unnecessary willy waving on both sides

If you keep predicting it you might get lucky someday but you've been predicting the "grown ups" will be getting down negociating trade for months now and I can't see Britain is any nearer to fulfilling the necessary three conditions.

Will that be before or after the Euro Zone collapse?

also
http://newsthump.com/2017/11/08/brexiters-tell-nhs-boss-to-grow-up-and-stop-believing-in-big-red-buses/

Don't do yourself down. Amongst the sneer and the evidence-free claims I'd like to think you're in the top 1-2% of Brexit supporters

You can think what you like. It is of zero relevance to me. I am not a supporter of Brexshit despite what you say. But I don’t expect you to say things that are correct anyway. I have been a remainer and will remain so. I will also continue to support FOM. But I am in a minority in both issues so tant pis

The only difference is that I accept that it is going to happen. So rather than wasting time moaning I am preparing for the new world. It’s actually fun if depressing. Despite what you guys claim there are some extraordinary brains being applied to how we adjust to the new world.

Edukator. I am not predicting I am involved. So you guys kept making stuff and moan on and on. The rest of the world will not be waiting

You have been warned.....your choice if you decide to prepare and adjust but the iceberg Is melting

For the vast majority there's no preparation or adjustments available, we don't have funds to move off shore, assets or shares to put in trusts or opportunities to change our country of employment. All there's to look forward to is being on the wrong end of a brexit shafting- whooppe****ingdoo!

So rather than wasting time moaning I am preparing for the new world

> sigh <

Yet again. What a timewaster.

People are preparing their firms and families for Brexit AND pointing out that it is being poorly handled, and that the best outcome is either to stop, delay, or limit our leaving of all the agreements and bodies we currently share with our EU and EEA neighbours.

Despite what you guys claim there are some extraordinary brains being applied to how we adjust to the new world.

Well, I pointed out that the insane talents of our civil servants are being utterly wasted by their political masters, who are proving to be ****ing useless, is that what you refer to? Or are you talking about people in industry being asked to prepare for the changes ahead with a government doing its best to blindfold them and tie their hands behind their backs? Lots of great people preparing for whatever is coming up, most with very little positive to say about how the current Conservative ministers are assisting them in their endeavours.

Well then you are screwed either way

My life will also be harder, considerably so. But shit happens. Deal with it (as best you can)

So rather than wasting time moaning I am preparing for the new world

Funny thing is you are actually the one wasting your time preparing for all sorts of eventualities when you have absolutely no idea what the outcome will be and you don't seem to realise that by far the most likely is no change with A50 being withdrawn and all your preparation being worthless.

My preparation has been a few mins googling e-residency in Estonia but I'm not going to waste time and money actually doing anything about it unless and until it actually becomes necessary, which I'm betting it won't.

Um… you really should be preparing… the "no change" scenerio may be right at the top of a list of desired outcomes, but it's right down at the bottom of the list of likely outcomes.

It is being poorly handled on both sides. It’s myopic to simply focus on what we are doing wrong while ignoring the fact that the Eu refuse to negotiate. If you want to swallow their tactics hook line and sinker, again that’s your choice.

The best outcome - or least worse one - can only happen when we get down to proper negotiation and reduce the uncertainty that business has to deal with. We are adaptable, but we need to know what we have to adapt to.

On the contrary captain I know all the scenarios and have planned for each.

You bet is far riskier than mine. But your choice

THM - you do not know “all the scenarios”. No one does.
I will accept you have looked at some likely ones.

Also the “best outcome” is not to leave. I accept it may not be the most likely - though it is undeniably more likely than 6 months ago.

I know all the scenarios

Don't underestimate yourself.

The only difference is that I accept that it is going to happen. So rather than wasting time moaning I am preparing for the new world.

I think a lot of us accept it's going to happen and are preparing for it as best we can. As has been said - for most people there's not much they can do beyond set up Skype accounts so they can continue to talk to their kids. As for "moaning" - it takes no more time than sneering and you spend plenty of time doing that.

Despite what you guys claim there are some extraordinary brains being applied to how we adjust to the new world.

Maybe so, but as 2 of them don't belong to Davies or May there's a limit to what they can achieve.

The best outcome - or least worse one - can only happen when we get down to proper negotiation and reduce the uncertainty that business has to deal with.

Because business is the only important thing. Right.

Some months ago I emailed Guy Verhofstadt directly regarding preservation of rights for those who do not wish to have them removed from us against our consent (that's many of us here I suspect).

I had a personalised reply - extract ->

From the moment this process started, I have been convinced that some sort of special solution needs to be found for individual citizens, like you and [redacted for privacy], who want to maintain their ties with the European Union.

However, I have to say that this will be difficult, but what I will promise is that I will do everything I can for people like you who feel European. You are not alone and your voice is being heard.

It's heartening they are hearing our voices at least.

If you feel the same, drop him a line.

Good afternoon IGM what a relief to see your comments

But you are not correct. I do know all the outcomes for what I and my clients do. We are also prepared for all of them too. Just waiting to execute and get on with it. That’s what businesses do - well successful ones

Of course the best scenario is no Brexshit. But th probability of that is <5%. If my preparation is wasted I would be delighted as all the remoaners here. However, I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best. More importantly that is also what I am paid to do too.

No risk on my side, there's really nothing to do for a while yet. Govt has promised continuity of EU funding (which I don't actually have at the moment, though I do have funding from an EU-based organisation and some plans for future consortium bids). That's even for applications that go in before the day of brexit. E-residency takes a few weeks so I can shift the official address to EU if I need to in the future.

Dr just read your own posts when it comes to sneering. I don’t even done close to your example.

But I am glad that you have at least made some effort to answer your own question. Wasn’t that hard was it. So next time the internet bully spouts rubbish and abuses those involved you too will know how to respond.

IGM are you caught by strike?. Had full day of meetings - including proper Brexshit discussions - so bunking off early to avoid the crowds!!

But I am glad that you have at least made some effort to answer your own question.

You seem to be too dim to have understood what my question was, so you are ill-placed to comment on whether I have answered it myself or not. But do keep on pretending to know everything - it is marginally less boring than your sneering.

Because business is the only important thing. Right

Wrong - as before - stop your sneering and step back. We have decided to end our membership of the EU which is first and foremost a business decision as it affects our ability to access our most important markets. So our negotiations are or at least should be on the future terms of how both parties are going through deal with each other. The rest follows from that not vice verse - unless you swallow the EU bullshit.

Its very simple

You seem to be too dim

Thank you for proving my point better that I could have done myself

How we intend to treat each other's people, and honour financial commitments already made, appear to comes first. And our leaders agreed to that (if only in principle). Either they should have sought a different starting agenda, or done the work required to get those things out of the way in a speedy way. New trading arrangements need to be at least hinted at within the next few months… not all industries can change how they operate in the final hour… and state bodies have shown time and time again that they sure as hell can't.

Have you missed the fact that we have agreed to honour our financial commitments - deliberately or otherwise?

But glad you see the fact that no one can respond at the 11th hour. We need to reduce uncertainty and get on with negotiating the terms of our future relationship. Only one party wants to do that. The one you seem to oddly favour?!?!!

Edukator. I am not predicting I am involved.

And yet you claim to be on a train into London when the negotiations are taking place in Brussels. And you aren't on the EU team so can't possibly know that the UK's tiny gestures towards the three conditions will be sufficient to allow the start of trade talks.

We have decided to end our membership of the EU which is first and foremost a business decision

A little more complicated than that, it's a decision regarding peoples lives, I for one have British family settled in the EU outside the UK, and many other EU citizens like myself have family settled in the UK.

Seems like that's the biggest issue, and the EU seem to agree:

[i]"The Government yesterday released a technical paper spelling out the details of a two-year grace period for EU nationals to apply for settled status once the UK leaves the bloc so that they can continue their lives in the UK.

The Parliament's cross-party Brexit steering group however today said there were still "major issues" to be resolved while Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt criticised the "inadequate" proposal.

The rebuttal comes less than 24 hours before the resumption of the next round of Brussels talks between David Davis and Michel Barniers' teams, in negotiations that will be key to Britain moving to trade talks before its new December deadline.

"EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU were told that nothing would change because of Brexit. The fact that the UK Government needs 25 paragraphs to explain how they lives will change proves this was a fabrication," the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt told The Independent.
"[/i]

😯 Ed

Yes it’s more complicated than that but you have to decide what drives what. The three conditions are only there to delay real negotiations.

Have you missed the fact that we have agreed to honour our financial commitments - deliberately or otherwise?

No, we haven't. We have indicated that we want to ensure that for the current budget period, no other country will lose out financially because we are leaving. We have previously made commitments long past that period, and have yet to say what we intend to do there… some ministers having even foolishly ruled out paying anything towards any of the schemes beyond the end of the budget, including those that we insisted on and pushed other countries into… infrastructure projects linking eastern and central regions for example.

We have decided to end our membership of the EU which is first and foremost a business decision

Not following the thread closely now but - what?

Yes we have. In writing and verbally

As in the EU is working towards ensuring that businesses pay their taxes and the UK seems outraged that multinationals should have to pay taxes too?

Yes it’s more complicated than that but you have to decide what drives what. The three conditions are only there to delay real negotiations.

So, why did 'we' agree to them, and then not do the work or make the commitments required to get them out of the way? A rhetorical question perhaps, sorry. Parliament even tried to get the government to get one of the conditions out of the way BEFORE triggering A50. That might have been wise.

You forgot the smiley there

The data is readily available to prove that this is not the case and to prove that the current government has done th oppositw of what you claim. Dr might even look it up for you. He’s getting into the now....

Yes we have. In writing and verbally.

No, either you missunderstand, or are doing your wilful blindness thing again. We have said that we will only honour commitments for this budget period, but had committed ourselves to projects that run long after that (most of which are in our interests and we'd be wise to maintain funding for and keep them on track, but hey, tell Boris that, as he ruled that out after the PM carefully worded her speech so as not to do so).

Agree?

Have you followed how this process works?

The three conditions are only there to delay real negotiations.

Not ruining peoples family lives and livleyhoods is hardly a 'condition'. It's basic human decency, the the UK government, and you, apparently, take issue with that.

No I do not

I would be very interested to hear how many people will be negatively or positively affected by Brexit, ill start

Brexit may well wipe out my business I sell houses in France to mainly Brits we are already experiencing grave difficulty!

students are no more immune to their own groupthink and social norms than any other group of people! I think this accounts for a little bit of Junkyard’s graph.

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome.

Wanting to stay in the EU cannot be called irrational or dysfunctional. I am not even sure wanting to eave is either - though possibly not accepting what it will mean may be ??
Its really is the last act of the desperate to say group think – what it means is I have no facts to counter this so I will just shout out something I cannot prove.

PS its not my graph its just the facts in visual form.

Have you followed how this process works?

I would be very interested to hear how many people will be negatively or positively affected by Brexit, ill start

I work for a agricultural supplier.... and the expectation is a large percentage of the customer base will fold.

[quote=teamhurtmore]The only difference is that I accept that it is going to happen. So rather than wasting time moaning I am preparing for the new world. It’s actually fun if depressing.

Thankfully not everybody is prepared to capitulate their beliefs in the face of ill-informed idiocy from 33% of the population.

Handily having the balls to stand up for what you believe in is a fundamental cornerstone of democracy - it's called opposition - and the responsibility for opposing poor decisions doesn't stop at MP's.

Research institute here, 2 issues are less funding to go round, tho hopefully government will take up some of that.

More of an issue is that EU colleagues quite worried with future still up in the air, some of them already taken their skills elsewhere in EU

Brexit may well wipe out my business I sell houses in France to mainly Brits we are already experiencing grave difficulty!

I think you'll find your French colleagues are finding things hard at present, Wicki. I'm selling a flat and had regular chats with the agents before finding a buyer. People are waiting to see what Macron does that wil affect the market and rental market before committing. I've decided to just keep what I use myself for the moment, and hope the powder doesn't get too damp (inflation) between now and when/if we decide to reinvest.

The price for the average supermarket shopping basket will go up, UK farmers will lose their bail outs so UK food will cost more.
Imported food will cost more.
Customs clearance queues at ports for imported goods will be longer, that will push prices up.

So we are all affected for the worse, those on low wages the most.

Yey sovereignty!

But not even sovereignty, as the government seeks to destroy Parliament influence with the 'great repeal bill'.

Yay dictatorship?

But not even sovereignty, as the government seeks to destroy Parliament influence with the 'great repeal bill'.

So do we take it that you would not like to see EU law remaining on our statute books after we have left? Odd, I would have thought that would be a top priority?

I'm alright Jack. If brexit ****s up the UK science base then there might even be more scraps for us to pick up, and once the old brexit-voting relatives have popped their clogs my wife and I might piss off to Europe (or elsewhere) taking our expensive taxpayer-funded education and skills with us.

I'd rather stay here under the status quo though.

Removing democratic oversight because of "priorities" has happened before.
You'll be up in arms if our next non-Conservative PM tries that.
Select committees asking pertinent questions is doable (assuming the government actual starts the work this year).

So do we take it that you would not like to see EU law remaining on our statute books after we have left? Odd, I would have thought that would be a top priority?

I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion from my post.

No laws needs should be repealed without full cross party scrutiny and right to veto in parliament.

Allowing the current disfunctional government to cross out what ever bits they don't like is even more criminaly insane than brexit.

Although if it's made legal to scrap large sections of law without proper scrutiny it wouldn't be a criminal act any more.. Which is my point.

Please, Mods, confiscate THM's question mark. Pretty please.

Allowing the current disfunctional government to cross out what ever bits they don't like is even more criminaly insane than brexit.

Although if it's made legal to scrap large sections of law without proper scrutiny it wouldn't be a criminal act any more.. Which is my point.

I understand why you were worried, given ^.

Fortunately, neither point is valid so you concerns are unfounded. You can relax.

I would be very interested to hear how many people will be negatively or positively affected by Brexit, ill start

My 6 year old may move to Poland with her mother.

You can relax.

****.

My 6 year old may move to Poland with her mother.

I would advise that you prepare for all possible scenarios as others would have us believe they have done.

Oh sorry, just your child - can you not put forward a business plan for that? Quitlings don’t really get stuff that doesn’t fit easily on a balance sheet.

ROFL as the young 'uns say - bravo DD 😀

French national living in France after 20 years in the UK.
Wife is english and still have property in UK.
Brexit means my wife might not be allowed to stay in France and I might not be allowed in UK ?

THM - I have a fertile imagination. A pint says if you tell me all your scenarios I can think of one more.
As an aside to that yesterday’s R4 program on Trump was making me think that a move to full European unification might be very smart. The practicalities might get in the way of course.
Strike wise - safe in Yorkshire, cycling the 20 miles each way to work today.

wicki - Member

I would be very interested to hear how many people will be negatively or positively affected by Brexit, ill start

Living on the Eire/NI border there's a very real possibility that a journey I make 6+ times a day will go from being a normal journey to a process of checkpoints, searches and interrogation.

At worst, the relatively dull countryside at the back of my house will become a potential smuggling rout for people and goods seeking to get into the UK unseen, which will probably lead to the area becoming militarised, which would lead to friction with locals, which would equal legitimate targets for dissident republicans.

So Brexit could literally mean I have terrorists in my garden.

So Brexit could literally mean I have terrorists in my garden.

But planning for these things is "fun", we are assured.

The three conditions are only there to delay real negotiations.

Only if you are a deluded brexiteer. For anyone with any sense its a perfectly reasonable standpoint

Or if you are a sociopath who is interested in your own little corner of business and don't give a shit about NI, families being split up and the UK reneging on financial commitments