[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Yes kimbers

The grown ups will ensure a deal. But lots of noise in the meantime

Both sides lose from no deal - why would either side accept that?

Both sides lose from the UK leaving - why would either side accept that?

Hmmmmm......

Both sides lose from no deal - why would either side accept that?

Maybe because one side DOESN'T want a deal, look at the paymasters funding the Brexit campaign and ask what they want. These are people who will loose nothing from the chaos and infact stand to gain from the new opportunities.

You talk about adults in the room, sorry to tell you but there are none on the UK side.

The grown ups will ensure a deal

Britain , the Isle of Man pore precisely, and the place's boss, QE2, are getting some proper bad press in Germany today. The TV channles are indignant that German companies have avoided about 15 000 000 000e in tax through IOM fudges.

Both sides lose from no deal - why would either side accept that?

Because the EU states have so little to lose and are feeling so sore about IOMgate that they really can say "no deal is better than a bad deal".

mrmo - Member
https://waitingfortax.com/2016/06/22/the-out-campaign-and-the-attitude-to-tax-of-its-funders

How will the brexit voting public respond when they find out they have been shafted? Still waiting for an answer.

The majority are not clever enough to know. All they want to see is less foreign people.

Mefty - I get happier every day I see another nail in the coffin of Brexit. Of course I’m getting happier since June last year.

I fear you may cause a blip in future statistics.

Perhaps, Mefty, perhaps.

Personally I doubt it, because if Brexit is cancelled the majority will be happy, if it goes ahead 95% of folk will get despondent pretty quickly.

But for now, when one's government is a joke, the best thing to do is laugh at them. Can’t vote them out just yet, so it’ll have to do.

Mrmo

Well the people I am dealing with must be a mirage then. Odd when I shake their hands they feel oddly real

Don’t confuse the nutters with the people who are doing the real work

Because the EU states have so little to lose and are feeling so sore about IOMgate that they really can say "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Yes the IoM really is a swing factor here 😯

The majority are not clever enough to know. All they want to see is less foreign people.

*fewer.

They're not clever enough to know the difference between less and fewer. Or interested.

Don’t confuse the nutters with the people who are doing the real work

So who are these people, that you know about but the rest of us are too dumb to recognise? Are we to believe that behind the shambolic nonsense spouted by Davies and co there are armies of realistic and hard-nosed individuals negotiating away despite constantly being undermined by the codswallop emerging from the government, and that at the last moment a Norway-like deal will be revealed and sold to Parliament and the public? I'd like to believe it, but there is more evidence for Santa Claus.

Is that a serious question?

Why would we want a. Norway deal? Doesn’t suit our needs. That would be silly

I try not to look at this thread for the sake of my ticker!
Therefore this may have been done. The fact that the telegraph is printing it is significant.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/exclusive-poll-shows-public-have-lost-faith-theresa-mays-handling/

Is that a serious question?

Why would we want a. Norway deal? Doesn’t suit our needs. That would be silly

Yes it's a serious question. Forget Norway - it's just an example of some halfway house that's not membership and not WTO.

that suggests they had faith to lose 😉

JY it's all based on faith, there never was any rational basis for it.

Yes it's a serious question

Well that’s quite worrying.

I think were as stupid as think we could leave, stop paying, not have immigration and retain trade as they needed us more than we needed the
When reality finally sinks in they will blame the EU for being inflexible rather than themselves for being stupidly unrealistic

I think arrogance or hubris or stupidity are better explanations than faith

Both sides lose from the UK leaving - why would either side accept that?

Don’t confuse the nutters with the people who are doing the real work

I agree with DrJ on this.

Who are these people? Please tell us? I mean this seriously. I stand to lose my job if there's a cliff edge (I work in automotive stuff).... I am currently job hunting (well, window shopping, but getting ready to move)

Well that’s quite worrying.

Maybe. But can you answer it, or do you only have more sneering?

That's one question we [b]can[/b] all answer DrJ.
Unconstructive sneering only, of course.

It doesn't take much to swing opinion, THM. It only took a few lies to get Brexit. It'll only take a few truths to convince Europeans that taking a hard line on Brexit negociations is in their best interests.

I know one of the Brexy civil servants, my boss a few* more - verdict is nice guys, intelligent, but lacking in gravitas and experience. Or put it another way, rather too likely to do whatever daft thing their minister asks of them.

No there aren’t teams of grownups behind the scenes. There may be a few, that might be enough, but don’t bet your house on it.

*quite a few

you choose to feed the troll what you expecting to happen from the exchange?

He gave up saying anything months and months ago

Of course, anyone who cares a jot about what is going on would know the answer.

So if people are going to call Brexshiteers thick, then they should be able to demonstrate different standards themselves. Unless .....

I think the main issues are that the folk doing the negotiations are seriously lacking in intellectual capacity and apart from when they go to the EU they are living in an echo chamber that simply reinforces their own position and no one ever questions it.

Del;uded fools in other words. Utterly stupid intheir action. completely incapable of doing any of this right.

Every day the bad news gets worse. History will not trat them well

No deal is possible from here. No significant progress on the major stumbling blocks has happened at all.

Paltry offer on EU citizens that is never going to be accepted, complete fantasy over NI and an unwillingness to pay our way.

Its donald ducked

THM - the facts generally back up Brexies being thicker* than the stalwart British remainers - though I accept that is a generalisation.

*perhaps didn’t take as much advantage of the education on offer would be a better way of putting it

Empty words THM. You have assumed a holding pattern. Waiting for the current Conservative government to form a plan that is both achievable, and acceptable to all ministers*.

[i][ *almost added "acceptable to half the country", but that would be ridiculous ][/i]

Tick.

Tock.

Of course, anyone who cares a jot about what is going on would know the answer.

Maybe. But I don't know it. So help me out and tell me what it is,

"Brexshiteers" are thick, xenophobic, gullible or have vested interests. I thought we'd worked that out around page 150.

If thm can rant about his own definition of austerity then let's get something right.
No deal is a know incredibly shit outcome.
Anything else is a deal - getting a deal in itself is easy and not an achievement.
Unless it's a carbon copy of one of the others any think agreed will be unique and bespoke.
In summary it's all meaningless here.

The options now are damage minimisation or sword falling. It's a question that goes unanswered but when would the "must happens" accept that it shouldn't happen?

It doesn't take much to swing opinion, THM. It only took a few lies to get Brexit.

Ah, that old chestnut.

[quote It'll only take a few truths to convince Europeans that taking a hard line on Brexit negociations is in their best interests.

Truths??? Thanks for keeping the comedy element up, it was getting a bit tense ^

Try reading a Dutch or Danish paper

The brighter folk worked that out hence why THM has been left behind

Just take the piss back folk, or dont feed as there is zero chance of actual debate, you must have realised this by now.

Ah, that old chestnut.

Look into my eyes… there were no lies… the public will not turn against Brexit under any circumstances… it is not possible… their will is immutable…

Why on earth do you guys keep feeding the troll. Just ignore him. Basic rule of the internet.

I think the main issues are that the folk doing the negotiations are seriously lacking in intellectual capacity

Given the flow of untruths you post on this thread, that takes same balls to make such an accusation. Wow!?!

From direct experience I know that you are miles off the mark and the accusations rude and unfounded. Plus ca change

obvs they lack our self restraint TJ 😉

*perhaps didn’t take as much advantage of the education on offer would be a better way of putting it

Perhaps as they are slightly older, there were fewer higher education opportunities on offer - plenty of workplace ones though but they don't count for the statistics.

I've only read Spanish, German and French papers in the last week and would stuggle with Dutch or Danish. In what way would Dutch or Danish be different apart from the fact that Holland is another country under fire in the Paradise papers?

You're as thin on information as ever THM, this isn't a guessing game you know. Be brave, present some information or even some opinion.

the less well educated you are the more likely you are to be a brexit voter and right wing

its obvious why some dont like this fact but that alone wont stop it being a fact. Clutching at straws is more likely an example of it than a counter 😉

PS not everyone right wing is thick as mefty shows on many many occasions ....others on here much less so

As one of the Edukated why do YOU think the Dutch and the Danes might think differently?

You're as thin on information as ever THM, this isn't a guessing game you know. Be brave, present some information or even some opinion.

😯

You brought it up. Weird. So much effort going into saying so little.

Perhaps as they are slightly older, there were fewer higher education opportunities on offer

Even when accounting for age, it still held true, been through this with ninfan/jambs

I'll try and find the link

Edit, here's one
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

If I should have read something in a Dutch or German paper link it. Because asking dumb, random questions about which papers I read isn't getting this thread anywhere.

What are you on about, THM? Nobody here has a clue.

Have you watched TGV?

Junkyard - lazarus

obvs they lack our self restraint TJ

I am famous for it - or is it infamous?

Edukator - want the dutch news in English?
http://www.dutchnews.nl/

NOte - my sister runs this site so please all click on it to give her more advertising revenue so she can retire in riches

Grown ups … some good people moved from FCO to the two new ministries… some have gone back… some have left the service entirely… find one still "at it" that'll give you a positive line and I'd be suprised. As for those who thought they had wisely stuck with the FCO… worst time of their career seems to be the consensus at the moment.

Those things may be true, kelvin, but they don't answer the question that I have asked three times now,

Nobody here has a clue

That’s a bit harsh, but some comments suggest you might not be too far off the mark 😉

More sneering; no information.

If you hadn't added a smiley to show me that was in jest I'd have thought you were being a dick.

Good job I didn’t mislead you then isn’t it?

You could extend the same courtesy as some people who are new here might think that your posts are serious. I thought that for a while until you proved me wrong

But can you answer it, or do you only have more sneering?

All he does is sneer, even more so now the niches left by Jamby and ninfan are there for the taking. It'll only take a few more steps for him to go all batshit chewkw on us.

As an observation on the leave voters having less intelligence than remain voters: assuming a normal distribution, it would be safe to say that 52:48 more or less cuts down the middle of the population. We all know that under a normal distribution the mean is equal to the median. It's just possible that all but the 2% over 50% who voted for leave are below average intelligence 💡

That rhetorical question would be better ended with "!" or ".", or you should have left off the smiley.

So what next disqualify voters because they are not intelligent enough??

Wow this comes from people who like to throw the patronising accusation around. What water for that steam iron?

Where is Ninfan?

Bullied off the forum?

#prayforninfan

It's never a question of where Ninfan is when he disappears. You just have to work out who Ninfan is when he reappears.

teamhurtmore - Member
So what next disqualify voters because they are not intelligent enough??

Thought ninfan was either banned or trying more logins, he could also be preoccupied with a massive boner over terrorism and mass shootings

Ninfan is also capable of some good postings and is informative on access and stuff. He is at least entertaining as a troll

So now that Patel has gone and Johnsons fate is in the hands of the revolutionary guard...

There's 2 less brexies in the cabinet

Chin up lads!

he is not but he is bright. Never understood why bright folk troll - I include THM in this as he could easily just explain his view but he prefers to insult folk and patronise.

Ninfan just wanted a reaction and to be contrary if we were all right wing he would pretend to be Stalin and threaten pogroms for the reaction.

As an observation on the leave voters having less intelligence than remain voters: assuming a normal distribution, it would be safe to say that 52:48 more or less cuts down the middle of the population. We all know that under a normal distribution the mean is equal to the median. It's just possible that all but the 2% over 50% who voted for leave are below average intelligence

I struggle with this a bit (I know it's at least partially tongue in cheek), and Junkyard's comment on the previous page about right wing ness and education level. It all seems a bit too neat for me, I think tying intelligence directly to education level is a bit suspect. I'm not sure how you define intelligence as there seem to be lots of different types, plus you'd have to allow for social norms, groupthink etc. Anecdotally, broadly true I think but I'm sure everyone can think of exceptions to prove the rule!

broadly true I think but I'm sure everyone can think of exceptions to prove the rule!

I think its hard to argue with this graph - its been a while since we had one 😉

[img] [/img]

I struggle with this a bit (I know it's at least partially tongue in cheek), and Junkyard's comment on the previous page about right wing ness and education level. It all seems a bit too neat for me, I think tying intelligence directly to education level is a bit suspect. I'm not sure how you define intelligence as there seem to be lots of different types, plus you'd have to allow for social norms, groupthink etc. Anecdotally, broadly true I think but I'm sure everyone can think of exceptions to prove the rule!

Well, it is a bit tongue in cheek, but under a normal distribution by definition half the population is of below average intelligence. This was something that with delicious irony Gove famously failed to grasp in an enquiry as Education Secretary a few years ago.

There was a fairly famous scientific study conducted on this a few years ago: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611421206

[url= http://www.****/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html ]Even the Daily Wail reported it :lol:[/url]

As for the comment about not letting less intelligent people vote, of course that's idiotic. However, there is definitely at least an opportunity for discussion on how to improve voter education and engagement on the issues upon which they are voting. I don't think anyone can argue with a straight face that everyone who voted in the referendum fully understood the implications of their vote. To improve democracy you need to improve voter understanding of the issues at hand. That's where dog-whistling from Farage et al. was so destructive.

But are graduates necessarily more intelligent? Plus, that's a pretty noisy graph, I think the right-hand half of the line is struggling a bit!

True for remoaners too Zokes. The staggering amount of BS posted by remoaners since the result shows education is required all round - even on very basic facts

You really have run out of things to say.

Edit, here's one

I don't think it addresses the point, which is when I went up to university in the early 80s only something like 10% did, so fewer of my generation would have been through higher education. It doesn't follow my generation have lower IQs than younger generations where attendance at university was much higher. However, it is not really an important point as the average age of leave versus remain voters is far closer than the stereotypical view would suggest.

However it is a good link because it includes this gem from Dominic Cummings

the better educated are more prone to holding irrational political opinions because they are more driven by fashion and a group mentality.

Which is nicely encapsulated in this thread by the fact that anyone disagreeing with the pervasive view is called a troll.

Anyway the view of smug remain voters that they are more intelligent than leave voters provides a convenient fig leave to hid the fact they couldn't mount a sufficiently persuasive argument to convince their fellow citizens.

As for the comment about not letting less intelligent people vote, of course that's idiotic. However, there is definitely at least an opportunity for discussion on how to improve voter education and engagement on the issues upon which they are voting. I don't think anyone can argue with a straight face that everyone who voted in the referendum fully understood the implications of their vote. To improve democracy you need to improve voter understanding of the issues at hand. That's where dog-whistling from Farage et al. was so destructive.

Agree with this, but don't you think a lot of young graduates voted remain, without fully understanding the implications, because all their friends were? Probably not in the same numbers, of course!

Anyway the view of smug remain voters that they are more intelligent than leave voters provides a convenient fig leave to hid the fact they couldn't mount a sufficiently persuasive argument to persuade their fellow citizens.

Which is nicely encapsulated in this thread by the fact that anyone disagreeing with the pervasive view is called a troll.

Ninfans not labelled a troll just coz he's rightwing, that'd be coz he's a troll, anyone banned for making comments about raping someone's mum, gets the troll tag from me.

As for Dominic Cummings, his latter comments about how brexit's going are far more appealing to this smug remoaner

Which is nicely encapsulated in this thread by the fact that anyone disagreeing with the pervasive view is called a troll.

Anyway the view of smug remain voters that they are more intelligent than leave voters provides a convenient fig leave to hid the fact they couldn't mount a sufficiently persuasive argument to convince their fellow citizens.

Well said. More inconvenient facts hence the desperate need to bully and intimidate others who disagree

Same old culprits as always.

Amusing to run through the backgrounds of the immediate negotiating team and then read the crass insults directed at them ^

Great how people condemn themselves with their own posts and have no shame in doing it either!

As for Dominic Cummings, his latter comments about how brexit's going are far more appealing to this smug remoaner

Not if you read what he said rather than what was cherry picked by the papers.

lol THM, if you can't see ninfan trying desperately to be on the extreme position of anything while struggling to keep up with himself in terms of consistency in any kind of argument, failing to answer any question posed (well we all know who are guilty of that one) complete ignorance of any evidence posted to the contrary etc.

the desperate need to bully and intimidate others who disagree

I cannot decide if you are blind to the fact that you do all the things you object to and abhor in others or you do not have enough self awareness to realise you do it.

i dont know which option paints you in the best light...you?
Was your last ban for excessive politeness ?
Thought not

Oh the irony oh the irony.

DUYOFCW