[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Left off the Evening Standard which has descended into the abyss as gideons gobshite

It's hard to descend when you're already pretty close to the bottom. That said, Gideon's continued tormenting of May, and his glee whilst doing so, is quite something to behold

It's a subtle as a brick and makes the standard ridiculous - a quick 5 min giggle at rhe end of the day, nothing more

It's a subtle as a brick and makes the standard ridiculous - a quick 5 min giggle at rhe end of the day, nothing more

Sure, but the Standard's standards have always been low. At least now it's amusing as opposed to just irrelevant.

I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

However in reality I do think the EU is punishing the UK for daring to leave, it's childish and making things difficult.

Given the speech last week about a European police and military it was a good call to leave...those at the top want (and are headed towards) a massive federalist state like a European version of the US...some may welcome that but plenty don't.

The anger directed in the UK's direction stems from the fact we're a net contributor...when we leave the EU will lose billions each year, that impacts their cosy project for a more integrated Europe and leaves Germany and France (mainly) footing the bill.

As someone who voted to leave I have no problem with the UK honoring its financial commitments that were agreed in 2013 and last for 7 years I believe, that's fair and decent...but a penalty or 'divorce bill' on top of that takes the mickey...a country leaving shouldn't be punished for wanting more independence, it's smacks of totalitarian politics...do what we want/say or else...this is the main theme most people like me have given for wanting to leave, the EU seems to want to operate like a dictatorship...there is nothing wrong with the UK wanting its own courts to be the highest level a case can go, there's nothing wrong with the UK wanting to set its own immigration figures, there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep an independent currency etc...yet the EU seems to think it has the right to overrule all these things.
In a supposed democracy I feel powerless when the EU goes on another ego trip grabbing powers from individual nations.

While there are some people who voted out for xenophobia and racist reasons the main theme among my social group was what I just wrote above, we want UK courts and politicians running the country not a convoluted system operating remotely from Brussels that can overrule.

If the EU's finances are so dire that they need propping up by the UK for years to come and then a whopping great lump sum on top then it just reinforces my view that as an organisation it's not fit for purpose and should have been culled a long time ago.

Look at how the EU are currently behaving towards Hungary, Poland and the Czech republic for a massively underreported example of what I mean...these countries have seen the reckless move that Merkel made with regard to uncontrolled immigration and the subsequent strain on infrastructure and have said 'No'....they will take migrants but they want to do it in limited numbers and at their own pace...perfectly reasonable I think.
The EU however has other ideas and are currently threatening them with sanctions and fines for not taking the numbers they've been ordered to take....what a lovely organisation the EU is, how very Democratic of them to issue orders and then fined for not complying...it's like they know the mess Germany made of the migrant crisis but won't admit it, instead they seem to want to spread the misery around other countries.
Poland have quite sensibly said that large numbers of migrants from other cultures and religions will take time to assimilate to their deeply rooted Catholic culture and may cause friction in the beginning....again a realistic and sensible appraisal of the situation....not according to the EU though who seemingly just want to cover their ears and not listen to valid concerns of member states.

Personally the quicker this country is out of that mess of a bureaucracy the better.

deviant - Member
I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

However in reality I do think the EU is punishing the UK for daring to leave, it's childish and making things difficult.

That is not punishing the UK, that us not being awkward it's telling the UK what it needed to at least work out before starting all this.

deviant - Member
I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

While in practice, when the UK is making a load of impractical demands, we can all see why it’s difficult.

The basic problem is that the UK did extremely well out of Europe and the EU, and much as certain elements want to “take back control”, they don’t want to be the party / people forever associated with the UK giving up the huge upside.

That help?

I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

Well it's all been talked about here.

1) So much of our country is governed by EU institutions. So many of our activities are done as part of the EU. Scientific research, banking processes, regulations, frameworks etc etc. Lots of stuff the EU government does there is no-one in the UK doing it. So we have to re-create a big chunk of civil service.

2) Leaving the EU fully requires closing our borders. But Ireland is still in, so we cannot close the UK's borders to the EU without closing the NI border.

3) The hundreds of thousands of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens here cannot simply be sent home. But they are where they are because of EU FoM. So what are you going to do? Send everyone home?

4) Huge parts of our economic activity are based on moving goods, services and people around the EU freely. It will be much harder if we leave the single market and customs union. We'd need armies of bureaucrats to manage it EVEN IF our trading partners were prepared to put up with the ballache. If a UK company two years ago only just won a contract against a German competitor, they sure as hell won't win it now on renewal.

5) A lot our high skilled workforce is from the EU. Are they willing to fork out for visas and deal with all the terrible red tape, whilst people are abusing them in the street simply for being foreign? Probably not. They'll leave. What are we going to do then?

If you think it's simple even in theory, you really don't know what the EU actually gives us.

Why is the EU being childish? They cannot continue to give us all the benefits without any of the commitments. Why would they? They won't act against their own interests for our benefit. We're now a competitor instead of a partner, remember.

Personally the quicker this country is out of that mess of a bureaucracy the better.

If you think the UK has the skills to solve any of these issues simply and clearly you're deluded. There's going to be a [i]massive [/i]amount of extra bureaucracy. It'll be a far worse mess.

it's telling the UK what it needed to at least work out before starting all this

Hook, line and sinker 😉

Not really, entering a 2 year time limited negotiation with zero clue about the 3 fundamentals seems a little foolish really. You know like turning up to do a deal and not knowing which company you walked into.

Lots of stuff the EU government does there is no-one in the UK doing it. So we have to re-create a big chunk of civil service.

😯

How weird. Totally the wrong way round in the case of one industry you note. And then this

We're now a competitor instead of a partner, remember.

😯 ^2

@deviant I think fundamentally you're a nationalist, your identity is tied to where the borders are. Personally I put membership of the world's biggest free trade area, and the right to freely live work and study in the wonderfully diverse continent, above which city the court is in.

Immigration - the govt has had decades to deal with this, most comes from outside the EU, and many Brits move to the EU too, counterbalancing that.

I don't believe there was any prospect of UK being in the Euro. And the police/army thing, _if_ it had happened we'd have vetoes or opt-outs. (By leaving, we don't).

As for the racists & xenophobes, you're not, but they voted with you (or you with them) to produce the win. Worth a thought.

Listening to Europe 1 this morning the 20bn was presented as an initial payment with a total payment of 60-100bn.

I think those against the ECJ need to look at some of the rulings against the UK, the ones that concern individuals treated badly by British justice rather than just the price of beer. However some tories would much rather gun down unarmed "terror" suspects rather than arrest them. The ECJ put an end to Britain's "shoot to kill" policy in NI.

Agree payments and obligations on exit

They want us to pay for a budget that we agreed to even though we may no longer be in the EU and not longer have access to the market - that is a bit like leaving the gym payiong for it and not being allowed to use it. We do owe clearly but the EU position is ambitous

Solve the NI Border

Agree EU Citizens rights who live in the UK

I wonder if both sides views are designed to not get a deal ?

To be clear I like the ECJ and dont want to leave it as we need an independent check on our Govts power and Mays real objection is they stopped her treating people in custody terribly. I dont want that to go unchecked and whilst our courts would work without a written constitution [ so parliament can change any law] that is a meaningless power/check.

The ECJ put an end to Britain's "shoot to kill" policy in NI.

Do you have the correct court ? You may be correct, but I thought it was the ECHR. Can you confirm?

THM, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, that would be better than just being 😯 ed at.

Can you explain yourself maybe shed some light?

ECHR indeed, THM.

Ok so what has the ECHR's role in ending STK got to do with Brexshit?

Mol

1. You comments are inaccurate re financial services
2. Ditto re competitor v partner

I was replying to:

.there is nothing wrong with the UK wanting its own courts to be the highest level a case can go,

If you want ECJ rluing against British counrt decisions there's a good choice too. For example overriding the throwing out of the mother of a British child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Court_of_Justice_rulings

Ok, but what has the ECHR and its role in ending STK got to do with brexshit?

Well the comment was posted on this thread. I'll repeat as you seem to have missed it:

there is nothing wrong with the UK wanting its own courts to be the highest level a case can go,

An attempt to censor what's discussed on the thread, THM (adds random question mark THM style) ? (and another ofr good measure) ?

On the contrary - encouraging further discussion and clarification and also seeking to ensure (1) that points made are accurate and (2) relevant

This is something that you value yourself, indeed you recently made the comment about how poor people's understanding was of the issues involved were

In this case, you comment in response to an earlier post failed in both counts above. A cynic may suggest that this was a deliberate tactic - after all people referred to as remoaners do this a lot. Are you in that camp? Alternatively you simply did not understand the role of the ECJ or made a simple mistake. Let hope it was its the latter 😉

Either way, the ECHR had nothing to do with brexshit as we all know, or at least should do

As you were....

oh and I respect the democratic process.

Oppose or obstruct?

Frankly it doesn't matter whether WE think it's a bad idea. We lost. It's happening.

Either way, the ECHR had nothing to do with brexshit as we all know, or at least should do

So you knew the answer (you wanted) all along and were just being difficult and trying to make me look foolish. Now I understand.

No I wanted clarification on the role of the ECJ - the point you were using to make someone else [s]look foolish [/s] appear mistaken.

We can leave it up to others to decide who ended up looking [s]foolish[/s] mistaken

But on ECHR, yes I am well aware that this has nothing to do with Brexshit. You "should" be aware of that too. Or if not appreciate being edukated on the matter

That is one of the benefits of discussions 😉

No I wanted clarification on the role of the ECJ

It would have been so easy to sak for it, or even provide it as you are clearly aware of the role.

That's your problem here THM, you put more effort into being a **** than debating the issues.

Frankly it doesn't matter whether WE think it's a bad idea. We lost. It's happening.

No I wasn't. I did not know so I asked you politely to clarify. You made claim, so it was only safe to assume that you knew.

Do you have the correct court ? You may be correct, but I thought it was the ECHR. Can you confirm?

You can insult your way out of that if you like. Or simply accept that you were wrong and move on

Remember that Jambas got abused off here on the basis of making things up, so standards have to be kept up don't they. Otherwise we would all be terrible hypocrites wouldn't we?? And no one would like that.

Anyway thanks for the clarification on who was involved.[b] At least I learned something. [/b]Cheers 😉

We can all voice our opinions - look how many pages we have here.

Well not all obviously as some are now excluded or have excluded themselves

Any questions was an interesting listen this weekend.

Brexies being very clear, particularly when it was pointed out that folk may be changing their minds, that folk are not allowed to change their minds.

Democracy?

R4? Is it worth downloading?

Fortunately both (important) sides "may" be changing their minds slowly. We might even get to start some proper negotiations soon.

Here's hoping....

There are two "both sides":

the in/out issue and the UK/EU issue. Which ends up as:

day to day variable UK position/consistent EU position

Proper negotiations are not going to happen if one side spends all of its time shifting the jumpers that make up the goalposts rather than heeding the ref's whistle to start the game.

Brexies being very clear, particularly when it was pointed out that folk may be changing their minds, that folk are not allowed to change their minds.

Democracy?

There's a David Davis quote on this.

Ah here http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-countries-democracy-brexit-vote-article-50-second-referendum-a7629636.html

[i]However, it has emerged that in a 2012 speech on the European Union (EU), Mr Davis said: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”.[/i]

We might even get to start some proper negotiations soon.

There's not much room to negotiate from what I can see. Unless the maybot has some kind of mystery ace up her sleeve that no one in the EU or the UK has previously considered.
Given the governments shambolic performance so far, I'd strongly advise against holding your breath.

THM, regarding the ECHR, we cannot leave it while in the EU, and May (along with many other Tories) has made it clear that she wishes to leave the ECHR. So while leaving the EU does not automatically entail leaving the ECHR, the link seems clear enough.

THM - possibly worth a download. I was driving to Glasgow again so I had the time. There’s probably only ten minutes of it worthwhile - some of the rest was entertaining though.
Any answers in some ways was better.

No it's very different CPN but I am well aware of why remoaners are happy to confuse the issue.

But again, you first sentence does not appear to make sense. Unless....

Cheers IGM. might check out AA!!

Matty - given how far apart the sides (that matter here!!) are I would suggest that there are acres of room to negotiate. We just need to get to the starting point...and not the false one

Or simply accept that you were wrong and move on

My second post on this page was:

ECHR indeed, THM.

If you were following second by second I originally posted "EU" on the previous page in realtion to the IRA, then edited it to ECJ because I knew the IRA thing was a human rights issue rather than EU but typed ECJ rather than ECHR. When you correctd me I instantly acknowledged You were right (second post on this page), and "moved on". What followed was a gratuitious attempt at a putdown on you part, THM. You can't be content with being right you have to spend the rest of a page being a **** about it.

UNFAIR
THM is clearly here to help us all understand things better hence he speaks with such clarity on issues and never obfuscates or patronises or alludes to things he never quite says

Bless 😉

Ed - I can't help it if you have an established track record of making claims on here that do not stand up to scrutiny. Normally that's obvious. In this case it wasn't.

Don't blame others if your errors are poInted, especially if you are happy to claim that others have a weak understanding of the issue involved and are/were happy to give Jambas such a hard time when he made things up. Otherwise that would be....

And subsequent posts show clearly that you didn't move on as you now claim. "Reformed" ?????

If you were following second by second I originally posted "EU" on the previous page in realtion to the IRA, then edited it to ECJ

Well I commend you for having the honesty and balls to add that you got it wrong twice. Chapeau

[quote=mattjg ]Gotta have a free press

I'm not sure we have that at the moment in any real sense.

I'm not blaming anyone, I recognised my error in print the instant you pointed it out.

ECHR indeed, THM.

You've now spent nearly a page patronising, putting down, accusing me of making things up and defending the indeffensable: Jamba's grossly misleading posts. Why.

Well not all obviously as some are now excluded or have excluded themselves

There's that claim again.

Who has actually been banned? To be honest, you have to be going some to get banned on here, so it must have been personal or very nasty for an official ban.

If people have excluded themselves because they can't hold their position any more, or they have flounced....well....tough shit.

As it is THM I think you're the only one holding the red white and blue line right now. FWIW, I genuinely think that the Brexit we are going to get is going to be so watered down that it is a deserved two fingers to the people who voted for it. The Trump-ites are also beginning to realise what an utter moron they've elected.

The alt-right have had their day, the grown ups will be back soon.

Cos it's a distraction from the actual issue of the brexit disaster that he's so keen to support.

No I pointed out Jambas mistakes too - and we engage off line now too. We still disagree on most things. You are not making another thing up too are you?

Anyway, enough before this gets out of hand.

In that case Danny we will both be happy

I expect much the same and keen for the uncertainty to end. Brexshit is a lose:lose. Both sides merely need to limit the damage. And the EU have other much bigger issues to address - € and why it's terminally fu@@ed

Oh and macron has some rioters to pacify too!

I find it very interesting that the term remoaners is still being used. Given the likelihood of difficulty the government will face when they try to force their 'vision' through the parliamentary process with their very shaky majority (not to mention the House of Lords) and the back tracking that will probably ensue, perhaps we need to change the terminology from remoaners to regainers. And maybe from leavers to grievers.

Oh and macron has some rioters to pacify too!

Somewhat [s]less[/s] fewer than expected.

For what it is worth, and read the thread and you’ll see my views and exchanges, I have also exchanged communication off thread, if not off line, with Jamba and he has been a gentleman in those discussions.

We disagree violently on Brexit, and I do understand why some on here get riled by him, but I think for the main our conversations have been respectful.

And he has been a thoroughly decent human being over one particular matter too.

And if you’re listening Jamba, you’re still a daft Brexy whom I will fight (figuratively) until my last breath. I also uphold your right to be a daft Brexy.

By the way, l could still see this coming out as technically leaving the EU while signing on for the 4 Freedoms and paying some club subs.

Which I could live with.

Clearly the loss of control over standards, regulations etc wouldn’t be great, but other than actually remaining, we loose that control anyway.

(Strange to think that the Brexies actually believe we'll have more control at the end of this, when one way or another it will be less.)

#brexitbetrayal still the funniest thing on Twitter right now

Jamba is polite and intelligent. I've conversed with many Brexies, he's a rare example.

I still haven't figured out what he's on though. He's bright, but nuts.

#brexitbetrayal still the funniest thing on Twitter right now

you made my day.

If uber can get 500,000 signatures in 48 hours so can we. #Brexitbetrayal

I can best describe #TheresaMay as a Rottweiler with no teeth. #Useless #Brexit #BrexitBetrayal #BrexitShambles

At a time when UK needs a churchillian Leader, we have two utterly ******* useless traitors. @theresa_may & @jeremycorbyn #BrexitBetrayal

This Brexit shambles is all double Dutch to me! #BrexitShambles #Brexitbetrayal #brexit #brexitspeech #lies #EU #StopBrexit #florencespeech

I voted to leave the EU, not cling onto it with my fingertips. #florencespeech
Disgusted with our politicians. Not worth cup of cold piss.

Well he is funny.

Oops ze Germans agree with Macron, infact go further, Tories trashing their reputation abroad & at home

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-may-germany/echoing-france-germany-says-may-offered-nothing-concrete-on-brexit-idUSKCN1BY0CI

Tho obvs the Germans saying things they think important for own elections right now

Lee Hurst really doesn’t come across that well on his twitter feed now does he?

The comments were making "some" sense until we got this:

“Thank God, the EU is more unified than ever before.”

But the idea that the speech was going to give details is a laughable as the quote

Do you think he meant united not unified?

Grammatically and definition-wise I’d tend to agree.

Is it? No idea. How would you measure that? A referendum?

Not everything I post should be taken seriously.

It made me smile while half watching strictly on record !

Wild night eh?!?

Probably beats my night.

Though there is a second bottle of Fraoch in the fridge.

they're right, she didn't.

May hit the net, ball still firmly in UK's court.

To stretch the analogy, by asking for a transition without offering anything, she gave the EU an automatic serving machine.

I suspect it's all a build up to a toys out of pram walk-out.

I had to google Fraoch!!

Better than picture of mini THM this week with a can of McEwans Export. I had warned him how awful it was but he needed to try for himself

I am drinking Eden Mill gin which is rather nice

Worth googling, THM.

Jamba is polite and intelligent. I've conversed with many Brexies, he's a rare example.
I still haven't figured out what he's on though. He's bright, but nuts

The view from Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4294708

It appears to me he finds something of advantage in Brexit to him, personally.

As opposed to....?

As opposed to the country or the people in it, as a whole.

What does that mean? Nebulous comment.

And look ^ for how much self - interest is behind remoaning and the attempts to deny the wishes of the majority of voters.

Awesome 😉

I am very surprised THM needed this explaining to him
Were you really not aware not everyone was voting out of selfishness/self interest?

Cue - we should cancel brexshit despite more people feeling they wanted it because a minority view it not to be in their interests - blimey we have even had the price of Belgian chocolate as a reason to ignore a vote

But only one [s]side[/s] person is acting out of self interest. Remoaning gets better

[b]everyone[/b] was voting out of selfishness/self interest?

Both sides?

😉

I dont think people do that
I can even accept that some RW folk vote that way as they think it will be the best way to make everyone richer* as wealth trickles down or some such so not even all of those voters are doing it out of self interest

* you are probably an example of this

But only one [s]side [/s]person is acting out of self interest. Remoaning gets better

It's late.

This is silly.

Whole thread, really.

And shame if ooor old ed again (sorry) but look st this pearl

'mm suggesting British people boycott anything even vaguely connected to Brexit. And more generally draw in spending and save for hard times which asa bonus may result in an economic downturn that will sabotage Brexit.

But let's focus on Jambas instead 😉

You have to love this forum for the things it throws up!!!

Why the edit CPN?

This is a giggle thread now. The serious stuff ended a long time ago. It raises lots of smiles though!!! 😀

CaptainFlashheart - Member
It's late.

This is silly.

Whole [s]thread[/s] referendum, really.

Ftfy 😉

Can I just say, I didn’t vote out of self interest. Brexit thus far (opening skirmishes as it were) has been very good for me financially and in terms of job interest.

If you want to stretch a point, you could I suppose say I’m interested in a society and economy that works for all. And I do think remaining in Europe will benefit our, and my, children.

But personally? It’s been fun and lucrative so far and that shows no sign of abating.

Still don’t want it thanks.

Note: I accept as THM has noted previously I’m not average. In what ways I’m not average can be left for another thread.

If you look to the American examples people vote to be worse off for a shot at the American dream that everyone can do anything when in fact the majority are stuck with what they were born into.
A lot of the Brexit lines were about that - I know people will suffer but it's for the greater good (undefined waffle about what that meant) all this without the shackles* BS and EU dragging us down etc. was there to make people feel like they could get more by simply abandoning the EU and doing what they had already been doing.
* Shackles like Employee Rights, Health, Safety and Environment, rational trade deals that protect members etc. (EU and US will struggle to do a deal as equals - doing a deal with a minor player is easy)

also for the benefit of THM's dogged defense and comparison as one of the people who called out Jamba on his constant stream of BS and clearly biased sources he never once admitted being incorrect, the best was to claim the facts were actually just opinions and should be treated as that. 99% of other posters when presented with a correction accepted that and moved along. The frankly pathetic fishing/patronising teacher act which appears to be done to make yourself look better and belittle others is just dull. It dilutes what you say the rest of the time.

The term remoaner is great though it's like a little Stop Reading Here Label...