[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

One of them was wondering how much damage it would do to the UK's European research collaboration

It wont destroy us overnight, the loss of the EMA is a big blow for pharma & drug development, and translational medicine. We will still be paying in to quite a few schemes (according to white paper) but loose input & voting rights on world's biggest collaborative science grant awarding, our research is good enough that we should still win the majority of funding (assuming politics isn't a factor) . Physics is more dependent on EU money than most, so will suffer more, ironically the EU is a major funder of (non-commercial) UK archaeology, so there is real worry that, based on the govs track record, our heritage is set to lose out.
Biggest damage will probably be through loss of FOM, which has been brilliant for research and studying as well as the general anti-immigrant & anti-EU hostility that is our new normal.

I really am amazed that so many think this is still a good idea

I am more amazed that so many people are STILL in denial

May will move the agenda forward slowly. The soft concessions are all happening on both sides. Progress, albeit it glacial. If we could cut out the BS things might progress more effectively - but that's a long shot especially with our media

The soft concessions are all happening on both sides.

List please, I've yet to see anything I'd call a concession.

I am more amazed that so many people are STILL in denial

Let's call it disbelief.

Some Brexiteer cockwomble was on the radio this morning being asked how this border business was actually going to work in Ireland

It seems like David Davis's original proposal involving fairies and magic is still the only option on the table

Let's call it justified scepticism.

If there was a cunning plan, don't you think someone would have suggested it yet?

teamhurtmore - Member
I am more amazed that so many people are STILL in denial

May will move the agenda forward slowly. The soft concessions are all happening on both sides. Progress, albeit it glacial. If we could cut out the BS things might progress more effectively - but that's a long shot especially with our media

I don’t see denial, THM, I see folk accepting it’s going to happen but it will be worse in the future than the past.
Even with a good negotiation and a good deal that’s probably still true.
How much worse? Well it’s hard to say. Will the world end? No. Does it increase the probability of lost growth or even recession? Yes. Does it harm one of the foundations of the longest period of peace in Western European history? Yes to some extent - but do we need that foundation anymore or are we so tied together economically that the job is done? Hmmm - we’ll see.

It’s happening. It probably shouldn’t be, but lemmings love cliffs. The downside may be minimal (though it may not be). There is no appreciable upside.

By the way is your name Neville? There is a reason for asking.

It seems like David Davis's original proposal involving fairies and magic is still the only option on the table

Beware. If you know your folklore, you’ll know the Scots and Irish fairies are in league.

Dominic (350m) Cummings been having one of his epic Twitter rants, over how Davis is sinking Brexit through cluelessness.

It's [u]definitely[/u] not his own fault that is all going tits up though 😉

I like this one

8/ Good heuristic: whenever u catch yourself thinking 'Govt can't be that crap', invert your perspective & you'll usually be more accurate

Dominic Cummings?

Our own personal low-rent Steve Bannon. You take one look at his unhinged ramblings and you wonder how on earth he ended up being listened to by people in Govenment.

But then you look at the people in government.....

We truly are ****ed!

[img] [/img]

Until people lose their jobs and see personally things turn bad brexit will be ignored.

How many people actually care, a third if that, most people are more concerned by paying the bills and x-factor. You have a small number of people who think brexit is good and a small number who think it is bad.

There is a reason why referendums should never happen and it is simply because most people don't care enough to find out the facts. Hence why £350M matters, it sounds alot but is not, regardless of whether it is true or not.

So - comparing Brexit ref and Scottish Indyref:

Would it have been harder or easier for Scotland to leave the UK than the UK to leave the EU? In terms of actually unpicking the various arrangements, rather than economic future?

Well one big difference is there is no cliff-edge. It would have been (theoretically) possible to build up the scottish capabilities over time, separating from the rest of the UK in a gradual process (which arguably has already been underway for many years).

Whereas saying "We'll be fully separate in 2 years and duplicate all of the functions that we currently borrow from the EU" is basically asking the impossible. Especially now it's 18 months and none of this work has even started.

If we do crash out without a deal, what will happen at the ports?
Is there going to be a horrendous backlog because they haven't planned for this?
Does the UK even make enough food for instance?

If we do crash out without a deal, what will happen at the ports?

The head of the Dover Port Authority was on Channel 4 news the other week. His estimate was that even any minor changes to the existing customs union would see twenty-mile tailbacks of artics at every port

[img] [/img]

But what does he know? He's probably some 'Enemy of the People'

If we do crash out without a deal, what will happen at the ports?
Is there going to be a horrendous backlog because they haven't planned for this?

as the government arent issuing compulsory purchase orders for new lorry parks around dover, we can assume that No Deal was never actually considered

just lies to feed the RW press

obvs not just borders that suffer, plenty of jobs at risk in the UK
[img] [/img]

which means we have to accept an off the shelf deal, as unlike THM I dont think we have time, also the EU offered some concessions for Cameron, why would they offer something better for May, especially as her gov has at times threatened to become a tax haven, withold security info and her own cabinet spent the last year squabbling over what it is they want.

If we do crash out without a deal, what will happen at the ports?

I can't imagine the French flattening Calais to build extra custom posts.

The EU position requires agreement between 27 countries, so to try and get a bespoke transition will probably take months to negotiate, then many more months to negotiate a final deal, the UK in contrast has decided that the only way forward is to block the devolved assemblies and parliament and leave if to the executive to make decisions. So remind me who is approaching this from a democratic perspective?

When did I say we have time! It's obvious we need an extended transition. Two years is just a message. It will be longer

Two years is just a message. It will be longer

paying 20bn for 2 years transition will be a hard enough sell as it is, I expect some serious tory subterfuge to hide the costs

the torygraph, mail etc made no mention of the exit bill Im assuming

Two years is just a message. It will be [s]longer[/s] forever

Two years is just a message. It will be [s]longer[/s] forever

or until there is a United Ireland which solves that big problem....

There is no coincidence in the 20

All this noise is about shaping the message for the great unwashed in the U.K. and Europe

The strat comm guys are v busy

"Look we are paying....no we are not really."
"Look they are paying ... phew that was close"

teamhurtmore - Member
All this noise is about shaping the message for the great unwashed in the U.K. and Europe

yep Maybot will rollover on all EU demands and the Tories & the press will do their best to hide the fact that we are losing sovreignity #fakecontrol

The gullible will buy it too

most people are more concerned by paying the bills and x-factor

Right sentiment, wrong order of priorities.

Another ticking bomb under the U.K......

You are right, though. By the time it starts really hitting the deluded little Englanders who voted for this nonsense it will be too late.

Man looking at long customs queue exclaims "I never voted for this". Yes, you did, you just didn't bother to find out that you were voting for it.

Knowing us as nation we will come around to sense a millisecond after the final 'deal' is done and change our minds again.

Beyond farce.

or until there is a United Ireland which solves that big problem....

Probably more chance of that happening.

teamhurtmore - Member
There is no coincidence in the 20

So we keep our exact budget contributions for the entire of the 7 year funding cycle ?

I am more amazed that so many people are STILL in denial

You'll be telling us next no-one should vote for political parties who stand no chance of power 'cos the majority want someone else.

This charade isn't over by any means.

THM, I think it is reasonable to say that there are very few to no upsides to Brexit and getting behind it, accepting it etc. doesn't actually change that fact.

So why not argue against it? Democracy is democracy, if you see something as a stupid idea do you accept "the will of the people" or do you make your voice heard and argue that it is a stupid idea?

If we go back to my earlier point, how much of the electorate bothered to investigate the question and consider the realities beyond soundbites.

Another ticking bomb under the U.K......

Quite indeed. If it went off it would more likely push us away from Brexit. I’m not sure what to wish for.

Of course there is also a ticking bomb in the form of Italian sovereign debt - and should that one go off it would likely push us towards Brexit (in the court of public opinion).

Either of these could go before April 2019. Christ knows what might happen yet.

Mutter Merkel to the rescue again.

Payments through a transition has been the obvious compromise for months - solves the 2020 budget and time problem.

Our glorious leader is about to give her Brexit speech in Florence. Apparently she turned up in a Maserati.

Looks like a tough audience

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/22/theresa-may-warn-eu-eyes-world-us-major-brexit-speech-florence/ ]Just when you think this whole thing can't get any more insane?![/url]

[i]Prime Minister to raise possibility of UK leaving EU early[/i]

Seriously... WTF?!!! 😯

Chris Grayling is a ****.

Seriously... WTF?!!!

Maybe she is playing good cop, bad cop, you need us more than we need you, don't give us what we want and we will walk....

f***ing madness.

Shared history
Shared challenges
Shared future

😀

Necklace (tick)

She's a great orator, isn't she?

It feels like being told off by a particularly useless supply teacher

"You need our spooks and navy."

"We don't want a hard border in Ireland."

slowoldman - Member
Looks like a tough audience

apparently no one from the EU is there, nor the Italian PM, just the british press & entourage she flew out there

great example of what a huge waste of time & money brexit is!

"Trade AND [b]Security[/b]."

You can see what she thinks is her strong hand…

"No EEA, no FTA… something else."

Plenty of time to fill in the details later…

FTA ruled out now because it would take too long, apparantly (who knew?), so we need to be more "imaginative".

Blah blah blah.... cake.... Blah blah blah.... eat it

[b]SECURITY![/b]

Lots of difficulties and problems now being outlined. Nothing hinted at in terms of solutions yet… hold on, arbitration solution time…

She keeps bleating on about a deep and special relationship. That's what we currently have.

…ah, no, just a reminder that it can't include ECJ, no alternative arbitration solution suggested.

Right, back to SECURITY…

Shes lapsed into a BAE Systems promotional video

So much talking but without really saying anything 🙄

So, 2 year transition, and continuing to pay during that time. That's it. Nothing more. Will still upset some.

waffle...waffle...ambition....unprecedented....security........prosperous.....partnership.....strong leadership....smooth and orderly....implementation......move forward.........ahh **** it i can't be arsed to listen to this cretinous gobshite anymore, I'm away to play in the rain n" mud.

[b]SECURITY?![/b]

[img] [/img]

So much talking but without really saying anything

So we don't want the ECJ and accept the UK courts aren't enough.... So another set of courts and who are the judges going to be, and what happens when they declare her in contempt or rule against her?

The idea of a transition is so blinding obvious that it almost needn't be said.

ah Britains future is bright.... yes with a country split down the middle looks really good, with regions that have been ignored for decades. etc.

and as long as the EU do what they are told it will all be fine....

Here's what I want!

Make it so!

Best question from Sky! Cuts through the waffle.
No real answer.
So not a FTA, and no EEA, and no hint about which the new relationship should be closer to.
No movement.
No clarity.
No decision made on "our side" yet.

[Faisal Islam]

Can we demand that the Europeans give us a Brexit deal which stipulates that we don't ever have to see Theresa May or Boris Johnson ever again?

Basically saying that politically I cant sell Norway or Canada option so the onus is on the EU to come up with an alternative.

Shirley the onus is on the UK if were the ones that want brexit?

Thinking, is May proposing to establish a "EEA" with one member and then invite the EU to join?

"What exactly do you want from the EU, and Germany, after this speech?"

> insert waffle <

[ question was from Süddeutsche Zeitung I think ]

Can we demand that the Europeans give us a Brexit deal which stipulates that we don't ever have to see Theresa May or Boris Johnson ever again?

Shirley the onus is on the UK if were the ones that want brexit?

Chris Grayling is a ****.

Yes. Yes, he is. Virtually everything Grayling has touched has gone wrong, the recent legal challenge to swingeing cuts during his tenure at the Justice department are the latest in a long catalogue of failure. If he were handed a broom, he'd grasp it by the wrong end.

'Let's think creatively'

=

'I don't have a scooby what's coming'

She's had 15 months to think creatively, but instead she's fannied around with elections and meaningless waffle, and today is more of the same. Clueless, hopeless, incompetent buffoons.

Clueless, hopeless, incompetent buffoons

Quite.

I missed the speech - can somebody summarise the substantive points she made?

yep.

.........

Does that help?

I missed the speech - can somebody summarise the substantive points she made?

The Norway and Canadian models won't work for us, can we have a bespoke deal, please? No rush, none at all.

We're actually going to play really nice on common security policy now.

Can we have some "creative" ideas, please?
*note: the combined intellect of the Conservative cabinet is incapable of moving the game forwards.

No deal really won't work for us.
*note: Six months after triggering Article 50 without knowing what we actually wanted, we realise that we made a colossal mistake and we hope that you feel a bit sorry for us and continue with the existing arrangements for a while, apart from the bits we don't like, even though it doesn't make any sense.

The damage it's doing to the reputation of the Conservative party is immense. Every cloud and all that.

martinhutch - Member

She's had 15 months to think creatively, but instead she's fannied around with elections and meaningless waffle

When you think of it that is actually [i]quite [/i]creative. "Right we've got a job to do. Instead let's call a general election and destroy our own majority for no reason". You wouldn't have thought of that, would you?

Biggest face palm in history of the world.

But......I don't get it.

How are we going to have an extra £350m a week for the NHS when we are going to have to pay £20bn over two years?

I can't put my finger on it, but something feels wrong here.

And what about the unicorns?

Over the last year I have thought, from time to time, that I might be able to shrug this off and become one of the "let's just get on with it" tendency.

But I can't and I won't. I have a seemingly bottomless well of contempt that I can delve into for the morons who landed us in this predicament.

Is there anywhere where I can find an article with a positive spin on it?

Is there anywhere where I can find an article with a positive spin on it?

I'm sure, in this post-truth world, someone will have a crack.

But remember, not everything on the internet (or indeed anywhere) is true.

Jamby would probably have had a go, but he's flounced.

there is no positive spin. only John Pienarr and Death.

Positive response from Barnier in general but with expected caveats on Ireland (shock horror) and details (no really)

this road we're kicking the can down..... how long is it actually?

I always thought a large proportion of the leavers will have checked out before we actually leave; I'm beginning to think it won't be an issue for me either - and I'm 'only' 48

Is there anywhere where I can find an article with a positive spin on it?

No chance! Anyone with a brain is despairing of this madness. And all the swivel-eyed Daily Mail brigade will be apoplectic as she failed to tell Johnny Foreigner to **** off!, then order the carpet bombing of Paris!