[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

@Drac we are talking about cross purposes. You are speaking about coming into the EU from outside which of course a protectionist organisation like the EU is keen to control. I and Vote Leave are speaking about the inability to control immigration into the UK from the other member states which given the relative vibrancy of our economy, our language and the wealth of the UK is a major issue

@binners, too cleaver for me - you'll have to explain

Drac - Moderator

So there's no control on immigration in the EU.

I guess this is wrong and you're right then?

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/more-information/the-future-of-the-eu-migration-policy-general-context-and-new-initiatives_en

Does that piece of information constitute as bias coming from European Commission?

Funded by EC and to publish information about EU?

There is ethical concerns there me think.

A bit like asking Tobacco company to publish information regarding the prevention of smoking innit?

A bit like asking Tobacco company to publish information regarding the prevention of smoking innit?

More like the DVLA specifying driving regulations.

Example. Undermining of service jobs. I have a close family member who works in IT recruitment for internet firms, they are against leaving the EU not least as their job mainly involves hiring Java programmers from Eastern Europe who undercut the resident Brits by some margin. So lower cost for business but lower wages and lower taxes for the UK.

Drac - Moderator

A bit like asking Tobacco company to publish information regarding the prevention of smoking innit?

More like the DVLA specifying driving regulations.

Nope, not the same is what I am trying to say.

If you need to justify your views using published information at least use some independent information rather than those from EC or EU.

hiring Java programmers from Eastern Europe who undercut the resident Brits by some margin. So lower cost for business but lower wages and lower taxes for the UK.

mikewsmith - Member

hiring Java programmers from Eastern Europe who undercut the resident Brits by some margin. So lower cost for business but lower wages and lower taxes for the UK.

I can hire 30 in india/Malaysia/indo for the price of 1 UK dev/coder legally and easily how does leaving the eu stop this?

They might be cheap but they are not stoopid.

Hire 3 perhaps but more than that you might as well start a head hunting company(recruitment company) coz there will be plenty of companies wanting your service.

You can outsource part of your work but you are not hiring them at that price.

@mike no you can't - not ones any good and you can't have them on-site in the UK

My ex company moved its finance (accounting) department to India and it now costs more to do the work as wages have gone up, you need more than 1 person as a replacement, limited continuity of people. Also as they are not on-site supervising the work is nigh on impossible. EU is very different as the people can relocate with no visa.

£1bn a month of our money to the EU for starters

Of which we get about £5billion back - just for context. It helps to put things into context rather than just portraying that which suits..

[url= https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ ]Link.[/url]

No you cannot! They might be cheap but they are not stoopid.

Example. We are employing Paramedics from elsewhere in the EU as it fills our shortages quicker than the 3 years it takes to train a Paramedic.

To the world. Not just EU.

mikewsmith - Member

No you cannot! They might be cheap but they are not stoopid

Maths? I can that is the scale of what I've been looking at.

Nope, even with good exchange rate you cannot even hire more than 4 people (being optimistic) [u]as employees[/u] in that part of the world.

DaRC_L - Member

To the world. Not just EU.

Ahhh Chewkw I forgot you cannot extrapolate.

You are referring to Murdoch controlling the world media. I think you have given him too much credit. I really doubt he can control the internet. To control news on telly to some extend yes but internet?

Who said employees, hourly rate grunts. Cheap and desperate ready to drive down the prices and wages of UK people eu or no eu

[i]My ex company moved its finance (accounting) department to India and it now costs more to do the work as wages have gone up, you need more than 1 person as a replacement, limited continuity of people. Also as they are not on-site supervising the work is nigh on impossible. EU is very different as the people can relocate with no visa. [/i]

Ok, so we know now that your ex-company aren't able to add up and/or correctly budget - but tbh that is pretty much like most of the oursources' I've seen and they always 'forget' costs.

And presumably your second point is telling us why the EU is a GOOD thing? 😉

mikewsmith - Member
Who said employees, hourly rate grunts. Cheap and desperate ready to drive down the prices and wages of UK people eu or no eu

Outsourcing is different a different story.

We are not talking about outsourcing.

P/s: Hourly rate? Yes, we love hourly rate in the far east coz the hours will never end. There's a reason why there is no such thing as hourly rate in IT in the far east. In fact, hourly rate is not even common. Yes, please pay hourly rate ...

And let's have a little think about where the UK economy was before the 1975 EU Referendum?

I think the terms "on it's knees" would be accurate, rated 6th in the world just above Italy. Currently we've moved up 1 place, despite the rise of many other economies such as India & China, and have a vibrant & healthy economy.
So in true British style "Vote Leave" want to shoot any continued success in the foot, grasping defeat from victory.

Britain was, is and will be built on immigration, in the modern age the Germans (George 1 and Handel plus his 12 music manufacturing apostles), Huguenots and the migrants from the Imperial age.
Currently they are paying old people's pensions, propping up the NHS and all other benefits native British people have come to expect as some sort of entitlement.

The [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control ]illusion of control[/url] with regards to local nationalistic politics and is the basis of delusional "Vote Leave" arguments around sovereignty.

Should keep you busy for the afternoon...

@Drac yes indeed and I would expect them to be able to get a visa quickly and easily under a system of controlled immigration with verified qualifications - simples ! Also they would pay for that visa instead of us paying into the EU and having no control over who comes.

@MrLeb - I included the rebate, also the economic benefit from trading with the EU we would still get even if we left and even if we had had no free trade deal (possibly reduced but as we import more than we export if there where tariffs we'd likely be a winner). It's quite impossible for us to get back 5 times what we put in, it's a zero sum game if we where getting so much out other countries would be losing massively, which they are not. We pay in massively on a net basis, its how the EU works - the intention is to grow / develop the whole and therefore come out better off. Except that isn't working. The €350bn gift to Greece alone has undone any good work IMO

@br I'd be happy to see a visa based system where we could hire the best whether they be from India or Hungary rather than the current system which is massively skewed in the Hungarians favour and we PAY for it to be that way.

@Drac that long Brexit film covered that very eloquently. It was a fact that excessive government control had held the UK back post the war, it is a fact that Labour under Foot (?) fought an election on the manifesto we would withdraw from the EU as membership prevented the Labour government having the controls it wanted. This is one of the reasons Corbyn has been a lifelong eurosceptic/Leaver

Posters here again are assuming Leavers are anti-immigration. We are not, we a pro CONTROLLED immigration. We are against the EU, we are pro Europe

from nazis to nessie, now

[img] [/img]

DaRC_L - Member
The illusion of control with regards to local nationalistic politics and is the basis of delusional "Vote Leave" arguments around sovereignty.

Should keep you busy for the afternoon...

[b]Vote Leave[/b] coz there is nothing to fear.

That does not even take 30 seconds of my time.

Drac yes indeed and I would expect them to be able to get a visa quickly and easily under a system of controlled immigration with verified qualifications - simples ! Also they would pay for that visa instead of us paying into the EU and having no control over who comes.

I'm sure you're on crack.

I'm sure you're on crack.

Vote Leave coz there is nothing to fear.

As for we have to Remain or Murdoch will take over, come on 😯 The fellow isn't going to be around too much longer and we are talking about our future for many many decades to come why give Murdoch power he doesn't have ?

I see Goldmine Stacks Chairman has come out vote Leave singing a letter to The Times saying the UK would prosper outside. A personal opinion vs the (US?) corporate position of remain and a donor.

@kimbers Shergar too (even if Osbourne can't pronounce it correctly and he should leave the wise cracks to Boris, he reminded me of that fellow in Good Morning Vietnam trying to do the jokes)

Paul Mason in the Guardian (only quoted the first bit 😉 )

The leftwing case for Brexit is strategic and clear. The EU is not – and cannot become – a democracy. Instead, it provides the most hospitable ecosystem in the developed world for rentier monopoly corporations, tax-dodging elites and organised crime. It has an executive so powerful it could crush the leftwing government of Greece; a legislature so weak that it cannot effectively determine laws or control its own civil service. A judiciary that, in the Laval and Viking judgments, subordinated workers’ right to strike to an employer’s right do business freely.

Its central bank is committed, by treaty, to favour deflation and stagnation over growth. State aid to stricken industries is prohibited. The austerity we deride in Britain as a political choice is, in fact, written into the EU treaty as a non-negotiable obligation. So are the economic principles of the Thatcher era.

A Corbyn-led Labour government would have to implement its manifesto in defiance of EU law.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory ]linky[/url]

From the same article.....

[i]Now here’s the practical reason to ignore it. In two words: Boris Johnson. The conservative right could have conducted the leave campaign on the issues of democracy, rule of law and UK sovereignty, leaving the economics to the outcome of a subsequent election. Instead Johnson, Michael Gove and the Tory right are seeking a mandate via the referendum for a return to full-blown Thatcherism: less employment regulation, lower wages, fewer constraints on business. If Britain votes Brexit, then Johnson and Gove stand ready to seize control of the Tory party and turn Britain into a neoliberal fantasy island.[/i]

Sounds great!

I would expect them to be able to get a visa quickly and easily under a system of controlled immigration with verified qualifications - simples

I see Goldmine Stacks Chairman has come out vote Leave

I was honest enough to say I wasn't quoting the whole article. He does however finish with the fact he's for Brexit.

If so – even though the political conditions for a left Brexit are absent today – I will want out soon.

If he wants out now is the time, we won't be asked again

Junky

I see you have not ranted about the establishment

yes consistency is indeed boring 😛

Very funny
Chapeau

@MrLeb - I included the rebate

Yes, you did.

BUT, you left out how much EU money comes BACK into the UK AFTER the rebate & AFTER we've paid in which is roughly £5b....reducing payments to £8bish - QUITE different to your figure of £12bish...

Come on, stop treating folks like fools! Stop leaving out facts which don't support your argument - you just make yourself look really rather silly when you're so easily found out.

CAVEAT: I'm no economist & I may well be wrong with those numbers & misunderstood....if so 😳

(Though, I think I'm on pretty solid ground!)

jambalaya - Member 
I was honest enough to say I wasn't quoting the whole article. He does however finish with the fact he's for Brexit.

So what? It's Paul Mason - who cares?

reducing payments to £8bish - QUITE different to your figure of £12bish.

This is a big frustration with both sides of the campaign, every statement is built on lies and half truths

the battlebus is a classic example of a lie being written high n mighty as truth (standard practice for bojo)

[img] [/img]

its just remarkable that all of a sudden certain Tories have mysteriously forgotten about Thatcher's rebate! 🙄

Is it remarkable? They have lied consistently about all the key issues - the fact that the are "bold" enough to put lies on the battle bus just shows the contempt with which they hold the UK public. Its utterly shameful and they should be judged very harshly.

If everyone is telling lies then who are the fools? Just asking like.

Even in the world of modern politics, Boris has an extremely elastic concept of what constitutes the truth.

An interesting article in the Guardian the other day sums him up pretty accurately, referring to him and Donald Trump as [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/13/boris-johnson-donald-trump-post-truth-politician ]post-truth politicians[/url]

What a brilliant line - post-truth politics/politicians.

Very apt indeed - and the greater the lie the better.

And this is the leader that Jamba prefers to Galloway

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/mar/24/boris-johnson-interview-eddie-mair

Ed Balls has spoken - we are doomed.

Indeed I do DrJ, our next PM I say.

Some quite remarkable "polls" today both carried out but the same company with same adjustments after (I am always suspicious of that bit) one by phone which shows Remain clearly ahead and the other by internet a narrow lead for Leave 😯

Indeed I do DrJ, our next PM I say.

Well, you're both disingenuous with the facts so I'm hardly surprised..

Is it remarkable? They have lied consistently about all the key issues - the fact that the are "bold" enough to put lies on the battle bus just shows the contempt with which they hold the UK public. Its utterly shameful and they should be judged very harshly.

Hence why if Brexit DID mange to put forward a coherent argument I'd still find it hard to vote for them.

Serial BSers the lot of them & not to be trusted!

In.

Jamby read why they did the polls PLEASE

Vocal folk are online using it as a soundboard where as the "silent majority" are clearly voting stay

See also

Scottish referendum
General election
THis one
ETC

Essentially the internet attracts the "passionate" or the "deranged" depending on your POV

STW attracts the passionately deranged - that a general joke at us all and not aimed at you to be clear

Ok bike to be ridden time

My mother in law was staying at the weekend. broadly i would describe her as extremely Christian, an politically lefty/liberal in terms of compassion/redistribution of wealth/social mobility, as long as it is not complicated by those troublesome other religions or sexual/gender orientations.

In a long and rewarding debate on Europe, it transpired that none of the arguments in this thread or the mainstream media actually matter- she wears a Vote Leave badge because (I quote) "It's God's will."

Any other brexiteers or remainers got God on their side? Not sure I can think of a scripture-related argument either way...