[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

In contrast the wild accusations in papers and ^ are merely greeted with a combination of and

thatd be because Davis +co ar far more interested in proving to the UK(press) that they are negotiating well with the EU, than actually negotiating well with the EU.

The deal Davis signed up to was to be fully transparrent in negotioations, including regular briefings on our position (May was desperate to avoid this oversight) the UK gov has been enforcing embargos on the big papers until midnight on Saturday so they are released in time for the Sunday papers & tv shows.
Then theres this Hard Brexit support letter being published in the Sunday papers, just seems to be a deliberate attempt to undermine negotiations.

frustratingly the UK science position paper (not deemed worthy of an embargo) lists institutions we wish to continue collaborating with eg paying money into) colleagues at the European Bioinformatics Institute @ the Sanger are still in limbo about what happens post 2020, without a comitment to funding from the UK theres huge uncertainty, science is already a craphole of short term-contracts, this kind of dithering makes life very tough. The UK gov still wont talk actual figures, just assertions of intent. The Tories are terified ofeven suggesting an amount we will have to pay to the EU post brexit.

If the talks stall in October the damage just gets magnified as we move to 2019

If the talks stall in October the damage just gets magnified as we move to 2019

Which is exactly what they want..

Why the F are 40 odd hard line Euroscpetic MP's running the fing show??

"respect democracy at all costs"

Anyway at least when we have isolated ourselves we'll still have nuclear weapons so we can form a pariah alliance with North Korea. I imagine they'll do business with anyone.

[img] ?imwidth=1240[/img]

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/07/europeans-british-dream-uk-immigration-future ]A really interesting, thoughtful piece by John Harris in today's Guardian[/url]

With all the talk of economics, we forget something far more important. What the hell does this say about us as a country? What message does it send to the world about this country? Nothing God, that's for sure. Utterly depressing! 😥

Agreed, the responses to the #lammyreport on Twitter are a stream of bigotry and ignorance

Im not sure that such racism wouldve be expressed to blatantly before the referendum and the endless demonisation of foreigners that we've seen ever since Farage picked up a fag and a pint for his first photoshoot.

will we get the 10Bn we are owed from the EU back now we don't owe them and they owe us?

@mickmcd - yes that's something we can take legal action over as it's our defined capital in the EIB, the EU can't sue us for the "Brexit Bill" as it has no legal basis (as per House of Lords analysis etc). The EU actually want to give us the EIB €10bn back as per their Brexit negotiating document just not now but in dribs and drabs over decades (?). IMO we are better off out pronto to avoid back door liabilities wrt the euro / eurozone debt

When do we commence carpet bombing Dresden Jammers?

To be honest, your posts remind me of what can be said about the attitude of most right wing free-market brexiteers

It's all about the money

You know the price of everything, and the value of nothing

Binners people voted to end freedom of movement, I think you'll find the vast majoriy of Leavers understand there will be some migration. It will be up to our government to decide, if in the future Comrade Corbyn if ever elected as PM decides it should be 1 million a year then so be it.

My company are looking at a bill of ~£1 million to ensure people keep getting medicines once your idiotic idols manage to drop us out of the eu with no Deal.

That depends on what tariffs are agreed/implemented, no ? Many dveloped countries already have zero tariffs for medicines / components. Not sure what costs you are estimating.

Kate Hoey had things spot on yesterday in her speech in Parliament and also in her interview to CNN

CNN: What do the EU want from the UK in these negotiations

Hoey: As much of our money as they can get

To be fair, Kate Hoey is an utter ****!

as it has no legal basis (as per House of Lords analysis etc

It also accepted there were other views available

Essentially its the govts position rather than an actual fact

Although there are competing interpretations, we conclude that
if agreement is not reached, all EU law—including provisions concerning
ongoing financial contributions and machinery for adjudication—will cease
to apply, and the UK would be subject to no enforceable obligation to make
any financial contribution at all.

PS the other day you were explaining how the Brexit vote was a vote against the establishment and here you are a day later quoting the house of lords . Are they goodies or baddies? I cannot keep up with your opinion[s]

@binners **** star ?

If the talks stall in October the damage just gets magnified as we move to 2019

100% certainty IMO the EU Parliament will vote "not enough progress", they just will to show how important they are. The Junker will make some grand statement aboit democracy. It's all dreadfully predictable. Then sometime in 2018 EU leaders (well Germany and Macron) will bang some heads together and it will be a frantic rush to agree something with minimum disruption for all sides. Junker / Parliament will be told to fall into line

something with minimum disruption for all sides

Any chance of fleshing it out a little to say something we could debate?

This "respect democracy at all costs" thing is stupid. Just because something was voted on does not mean it is the best course of action.

This democracy thingy is proving pretty difficult still I see

So we have ignore the vote and use the current process - hmm, so no progress then. No shock there.

So we have ignore the vote and use the current process - hmm, so no progress then. No shock there.

Ignore the democratic process?

What's democratic about an overhaul of our laws with no oversight from parliament?

If you're so keen on democracy let's see you make a stand!?

That depends on what tariffs are agreed/implemented, no ? Many dveloped countries already have zero tariffs for medicines / components. Not sure what costs you are estimating.

He works in pharma so Brexit costing them big, not to mention the proposed immigration laws

Btw, I thought it was about sovereignty, not controlling immigration, is hard to keep up with what we were going for, as we all know absolutely no one was talking about jeopardising our place in the single market either 😉

THM: something can't be both democratic & irreversible

This democracy thingy is proving pretty difficult still I see

just because the majority have spoken one need not respect it as you show on those threads.

It would be a strange democracy where one could not object to the govt policy of the day or even the "will of the people"

That is pretty basic stuff.

Those assets you want to pull out of the EIB.… where do you think they are invested?

It would be a strange democracy where one could not object to the govt policy of the day or even the "will of the people"

[url= https://www.ft.com/content/266e996a-948f-11e7-a9e6-11d2f0ebb7f0?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 ]Cake and Eat it[/url]

Please use the sharing tools found via the email icon at the top of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/266e996a-948f-11e7-a9e6-11d2f0ebb7f0?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6

Theresa May, UK prime minister, is planning to use a major speech in Europe this month to set out her proposals for a “no cliff-edge” Brexit transition deal, with ministers saying any interim agreement must be “as close as possible” to current relations.

While that message will resonate well with business and Brussels, Mrs May will deliver a much tougher missive to the Conservative party conference a few days later, promising Eurosceptics that her end goal is still to deliver a “clean” Brexit.

About 35 Eurosceptic Tory MPs signed a letter this week warning against a transition deal that keeps Britain in the EU “by stealth”. The letter was intended to send a clear signal to Mrs May not to take their support for granted.

The prime minister’s decision to address Brexit in two different speeches — and to two very different audiences — reflects her two-pronged political challenge to protect the British economy from a difficult exit while holding her fractious political party together.

Ok so we are going to have a transition with no change and then a clean break.... So WTF, cake and eat it again.

She has to appease those who voted Leave for contradictory reasons. And she's doing well at it. Her successor may find it more tricky, as they will have to deal with reality not disparate fallacies.

How about the Irish border Jambalaya ? Still no answers ?
You can't forget those minor détails for ever.

teamhurtmore - Member

This "respect democracy at all costs" thing is stupid. Just because something was voted on does not mean it is the best course of action.

This democracy thingy is proving pretty difficult still I see

So we have ignore the vote and use the current process - hmm, so no progress then. No shock there.

The democratic process produced a hung parliament which should be reflected in hung committees- no?

Are you suggesting we flout a democratic vote? Are you suggesting we change our democratic processes just to accommodate the Brexies?

Yes THM you are finding democracy a little difficult. Now stop being silly.

Igm. Read the post I was referring to rdo the second half

All the brexiteers seem to be adopting the same appsmug complacent attitude

We just bluff and bluster for 18 months, and do **** all, then as the eleventh hour approaches the EU. Panics and gives us everything we want.

Cake? Tick!

Eat it? Tick!

Of course the people adopting this monumentally moronic approach will be immune from the potential economic catastrophe this ushers in. They'll just walk away - like Dave sat in his shepherds hut - and leave the 'little people' to sort out their mess

I wonder if THM would be so laisse faire about the things if Labour were running the show?

My bet is no....

Democracy is continuous. It never stops. The motivations, information, opinions, prejudices, desires and fears of those who vote can and do change and democracy must allow the accommodation of those changes.

The idea that June 2016 created an unchangeable event where the people cannot change their mind based on what they discover later is undemocratic.

Continuing to campaign for a changed plan based on how far the Brexit reality is from the promises made is entirely consistent with democracy. The idea that any subject is closed to debate and change is not.

A nice walk in the mountains and there's another three pages to read on return.

I did think of linking some facts about major trading partners but won't.

Instead I'll link [url= https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologie ]something for THM[/url].

There are three actors in this Brexit farce. The leavers, the remainers and leave apologists.

IMO the EU Parliament will vote "not enough progress", they just will to show how important they are.

Did it ever cross your mind there might not actually BE enough progress?

Then sometime in 2018 EU leaders (well Germany and Macron) will bang some heads together and it will be a frantic rush to agree something with minimum disruption for all sides.

It's quite sweet that the brexies think their best hope is that the French & Germans will swoop in at the last minute and save us from self harm.

It's also completely bonkers, if we want to play hardball, then yes the Germans would be hurt by tanking car sales, but their industry would be hurt infinitely more if the single market & customs union were to be weakened by UK cherrypicking.

The brexies are going to have come up with their own plan to save Brexit, not rely on our European friends, or own the damage they've wrought

Jamba

It is going to cost pharma as we will be seen as a third country as far as medicine manufacture goes.
So every drug produced in the uk will also have to be tested for release within the eu. Hence another lab, and vice versa the uk will need to have every medicine released into the uk tested here. This does not happen at present.
So every pharma company needs 2 labs, one in the uk and one in the eu.
You have no idea how hard it is to recruit at the moment and that is without the threat of restricted access to qualified people.

So yes there is a threat to medicine access in the uk from brexit and in Europe, all the people (being polite) who voted for brexit had no clue on what it entails, and if you don't think we will be a third country go find the ema guidance on brexit

Chris we've made concrete and workable proposals for the Irish border. [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638135/6.3703_DEXEU_Northern_Ireland_and_Ireland_INTERACTIVE.pdf ]Paper here[/url] Barnier has just given up and passed the buck saying it's our problem. Well we have proposed a solution (no border etc), he needs to agree. Davies is also quite right to point out that you can't solve the border issue unless you talk about future trade and customs. TBH I have not bothered to read what the EU just published on the border, they are playing catch up on the position papers

Kelvin we are not pulling assets out ofvthe EIB. We want our capital back, that will most likely be achieved by the EU27 putting in a fresh 10€ bn which is paid to us. All "assets" reamin in place at the EIB. Now of course EU don't want that, they want to let the assets run off (mature) and pay our capital back bit by bit.

@graham thanks. All that could (would) be solved with the appropriate deal though, no ? Are we not the EU's largest Pharma center of excellence ? If they put up barriers they have less access to medicines and/or have to pay a higher
price ?

we've

😆

100% certainty IMO the EU Parliament will vote "not enough progress", they just will to show how important they are.

My word.....

Your blinkered, one-sided arrogance is really coming to the fore...

We may develop a lot of drugs here but it doesn't mean we make them and that is the significant point.
Also and i hope this wouldn't be a consideration but for all new medicine registrations it comes down to priority, europe is a bigger market so the uk will be registered later.
This already happens around the world as it is, so it will have to be a consideration.

I have not bothered to read what the EU just published on the border, they are playing catch up on the position papers

Eh?

The EU had position papers out since July

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en?field_publication_type_tid_i18n=359&field_core_tags_tid_i18n=351

Until a couple of weeks ago we had 4

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/article-50-and-negotiations-with-the-eu#position-papers-

Leaving not just the EU but our own industries without a clue as to what our plan was

I suppose that deciding to have an election instead of doing their jobs might have been a daft idea.

If they put up barriers

It's not the EU that's decided to remove the UK from the ECJ and the EMA !

Besides which the UK govs official Brexit position is to create its own testing regime, (at huge cost) to somehow replicate exactly the work of the EMA for drugs produced here.
That's to try and prevent the delay in new drug registration that Graham is talking about, & it can take years to approve a new drug.
The costs will be huge but NICE holds back a breast cancer drug & the daily fail throws a shitfit, wonder who they'll blame when it's brexit's fault 😉

Still we've taken back control

I suspect Barnier's reaction to British negotiators is much like mine when I read your posts, Jamba. Now read back through your posts and put yourself in Barnier's shoes (or mine for that matter). Having sifter through all the hyperbole, sound bites and distortions of reality to try and find some substance from which to construct: there isn't any.

Kimbers they only just published their position on Irish border (I believe). BTW that earlie paper on the financial statement is thread bare to say the least. They think we'd oay tens of billions on that basis ?

MrLeb the EU Parliament is a total bit part in this process, hence they'll show some "muscle" by voting "no" whatever is discussed. Just look at Verhofstadt, chief negotiator but he is not involved in ANY meetings. Remember the EU Parliament cannot make laws, the Commission does that. The Parliament just just say yes, no or try and amend. It's the tail to the Comission dog.

Edukator, Barnier isn't in a position to negotaite anything. The EU have tied his hands. We are not playing their game and so nothing much will happen for now. We are not paying the blackmail request and have explained how it has no legal basis. Barnier has provided no legal analysis of why the amounts are due as there isn't one.

The British position as you write there sounds like you want a trade war.

I thought it was the UK trying to blackmail the EU Jamba.
Remember our opening salvo of give us what we want or we'll create some sort of tax haven nightmare* 22 miles off your coast.

*you may remember the details better than me I just saw it as small man syndrome.

Remember the EU Parliament cannot make laws, the Commission does that. The Parliament just just say yes, no or try and amend. It's the tail to the Comission dog.

Bit like government and parliament in London then. I know there is such a thing as a private members bill, but in reality...

You are being arrogant by pointing the finger for delays at the EU, whilst somehow the Gov is above reproach & being completely reaaonable...

Laughable!

But hiw can they blackmail us of we hold all the cards?

Jambs are u really disgraced former defence minister Liam Fox? If so I claim my free kick back from the genocidal Sri lankan government

teamhurtmore - Member
Igm. Read the post I was referring to rdo the second half

Re-read it. I get your point about the vote a year or so ago (I don't necessarily agree but I understand it), but on process:
Are we in agreement that parliamentary processes should not be undermined, that the general election result should not be ignored?
Because that is where I see the greatest (and I appreciate you may not) danger o democracy in this country.
MPs not doing something on the back of an advisory referendum (rightly or wrongly) is one thing. Leadsome trying to usurpe parliamentary sovereignty is in another league.

Edukator, we've laid our cards out - we want a "deep and special relationship" a sector specific free trade deal, our priorities are services and manufacturing as per May's statement. Canada has a sector specific free trade deal, no ECJ, no budget contributions. EU has 60 others like that. We'll do one more. As for a trade war if absolutely necessary I am good for that. Remember it was YOU who was proposing a buyers strike.

We will pay what is legally due, ie our budget contributions till March 29, 2019 plus anything else that can be demonstrated is a legal obligation.

MrLeb I fail to see how we are being unreasonable, not paying a ficticious open ended multi billion pound "bill" , playing exactly by the A50 rules ?

"deep and special relationship"

No you don't, that's what ended with Art. 50.

no budget contributions.

You've not bothered to read the UK position papers then ?

They're not very long it's easy enough, but they might cause you to intersect with reality!

Bit like government and parliament in London then. I know there is such a thing as a private members bill, but in reality..

Other than the government is elected.

Nope. Parliament is elected. Government is formed at the discretion of the Queen. Who isn't elected.

London today, anyone going? https://peoplesmarch4eu.org

Meet you for a beer after?

So Europeans can fly into Dublin ( and Belfast ? ) , and hen enter the Uk without any checks , same with goods ?
that is one way of taking back control on immigration . 😆

I'm expecting NI to join the Republic, or failing that, border checks to be at the British point of entry.

nope , no border checks as per the British papers .

if that is the case, lots of cheap flights to Dublin coming , and extra links to the rest of the UK .

Easy enough for Ryanair to set up internal flights from Belfast to London . will add a few hours of traveling but worth it to avoid cost of a visa .

I wonder how much of a bath jamby and thm took on the failure of the eurogeddon fund?

[url= https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-08/eurogeddon-fund-betting-on-euro-zone-demise-shuts-after-losses ]fund that bet on euro failure collapses[/url]

Jambs, the Canada example would be poor for financial services

Re-read it. I get your point about the vote a year or so ago (I don't necessarily agree but I understand it)

Bit odd, as that was not the point I was making. You could try to read it a third time and especially the assumption behind the second bit

Are we in agreement that parliamentary processes should not be undermined,

Yes

that the general election result should not be ignored?

Yes, but not just the GE!!

MPs not doing something on the back of an advisory referendum (rightly or wrongly) is one thing.

Conveniently missing the elephant that is/was the EXPLICIT promise to honour the result 😯

Leadsome trying to usurpe parliamentary sovereignty is in another league.

Which is not what is happening, but never mind. Still no sensible answers to the challenge ahead of us. No surprise. Dinner with partner from Clifford Chance last night and tennis with one from Allen and Overy this morning. They could not give me any evidence to support the wilder remoans being made ^ either.. Not odd that 😉

Go on then, what do you think Leadsom's motion does?

PS - the rightly or wrongly bit covers the explicit promise. Personally I think honouring an explicit promise and there by damaging the country is a bad thing

Also, if that wasn't your point, I'm mystified as to what your point is. Feel free to try and express yourself a little better if you want.

Isn't every manifesto pledge an explicit promise ? And we all know they ain't worth squat....

No (kimbers)

IGM - ok, let's take it in easy steps. What is democracy?

Appears May's spokeswoman doesn't know what a majority is...

However, May’s spokeswoman said the change was vital to avoid long delays to bills through large numbers of amendments being made “by a handful of opposition MPs at committee stage” that would need to be reversed via multiple votes back in the Commons.

"The government has a majority on the floor of the house, therefore it’s perfectly legitimate that it puts to to the house, and thereby MPs, that it should also have a majority in committees,” the spokeswoman said.

Last time I checked it was a minority government - or are they now in coalition with the DUP?

THM - what is democracy? An apparently simple question but as so often not simple to answer.

Democracy - Greek, literally "rule of the people

Except we can't really mean that or we wouldn't need parliament or government. Actually that definition isn't far off anarchy.

So..,

According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

And that definition seems to work ok. It allows for MPs and for a referendum or two, but doesn't tie MPs hands, excepting that they should obey the law.
And in this case Leadsom is trying to arrange for the government to side step the rules which is pretty close to sidestepping the law.
Agreed?

Alternatively THM, why not tell me what you think democracy is? You'll find it's quite complex and quite diverse I think.
And generally not favoured by those who espouse it overly strongly.

Lol he expects an answer that either makes sense or is not overly patronising ...

one of your higher quality contributions Mike, thank you.

IGM , so yes a good start. Democracy is simply the notion that the demos ie, all the people are involved in the kratos Ie power. That's what is promised. At no stage doe it/should it assume a given result* be that a good, bad or indifferent result. That's not its purpose nor is it an appropriate benchmark against which to asses it. So the point I quoted twice is simply a non point.

Democracy does not promise or offer any type of result. It is merely one form of political process/organisation. you could perhaps argue that it gives the best outcome if best is considered in some form of utilitarian idea, but even then...

So that's cleared up. Now the next bit.

What are the two challenges that need to be addressed?

It is merely one form of political process/organisation.

Several forms really.

hey say never assume because it makes an ass out of you and me but one assumes

So Europeans can fly into Dublin ( and Belfast ? ) , and hen enter the Uk without any checks , same with goods ?

one leaving Dublin would also be enter the EU with no checks , seems like a great deal to me

Ok several forms then. Doesn't change the issue.

So what are the two key challenges that we are faced with - with respect to EU legislation?

Democracy does not promise or offer any type of result. It is merely one form of political process/organisation.

THM, so you agree that all the people saying "we have to brexit, because democracy" are basically blowing smoke?

No.

THM - proper oversight to see things aren't corrupted, and ensuring people's lives aren't damaged any more than they have to be.

@mick into Dublin then freely NI for sure. I would guess we'll have something like API dor the leg into mainland UK or maybe not and just rely upon picking anyone up (and deporting) who we find working. EU citizens will have (proposed) 3-6 month free visas

Goods the UK proposed would have technology based tracking depending upin what they where. Also we don't cre about simple stuff, wg foods and everyday goods which would be consumed in NI. You are not going to be bringing in 1,000s of cars or other high value goods by the back door.. pikice spot checks etc can easily deal with that stuff off the ferries into the UK

Before that? Let me be more precise - forget challenges - the two basic issue (technical)

I ask this question in seriousness because (TBH) I am not quite sure of the balance that is being achieved here, so I am trying in my own mind to be very clear about what is being discussed.

The challenge during the week was that the sheer scale of remoaning - characterised by wild headlines and no clarity on the issues involved - meant that it was hard to see the wood from the trees. Another guest last night (good party) worked in PR and we discussed who was in control of the narrative here. Who has the better strategic communications team. The one thing that is clear is that it is not the government, They have totally lost the narrative here, and this has been going on for a while.

Google great repeal bill (crap name isn't it) and your get pages (highly manipulated) of newspaper stuff with little actual factual content or decent analysts. It's very hard to understand what is happening here. I am happy to admit that I am still trying to work (some of) it out

I'm expecting NI to join the Republic

Sorry thm but basically you have drifted to your tory roots(unbiased my arse) the 2 positions ar not compatible, respect for the referendum and accepting of votes on legal transition doesn't make sense.
That is where you default to the bad school teacher persona of being patronising to sound right.

Not as good as your previous post Mike. No need to apologise either.....as crap as starting "with respect" 😉

Goods the UK proposed would have technology based tracking

Still lots of froth but no answers to the basic questions

We need a bill under the second of my points, and if all it does is transfer EU based legislation into fully UK legislation then that's fine.
But as I understand it, it can't. For example if the current version of a law goes back to the ECJ then what does a fully UK one do?
So the laws will need fettled, tinkered with, to make them fit. Which again is fine.
But the government is reserving that right to ministers not parliament in some cases - now I get nervous.
And the Brexies are trying to change the committee rules to get more of their people (government people if I'm being fair) in the committees that will edit, amend and redraft the bill to see that the right oversight goes to parliament or government.
Now I'm really nervous - what are they trying to get through that they need to ride roughshod over the conventions of our democratic process to do it?
And what other parts of our democracy were they intending to do away with?
It's bad in itself and looks like the thin end of a wedge to me.
Governments are not to be trusted - that's why a strong parliament is necessary.