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We have one of those already. It's taken a long time, and a lot of effort on all sides, to achieve it. The endeavour you have pushed for risks all that has been achieved, and you'll be looking to blame others for not finding a new solution, and implementing it, in less than two years. Nice of you to pretend you give a shit about Ireland though.a sensible border arrangement
1 and 2 are Oxford and Cambridge, Imperial College in the mix too.
All of which have warned that Brexit will damage them & science + research in the UK....
Sooner or later business is going to have to stop moaning and get on with the job
AHH yes it's business' fault they won't sign up to May's freaky propaganda letter saying brexit's gonna be brill
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Once again the brexies are looking to shift the blame.
the EU can agree a Free Trade Deal and a sensible border arrangement with the UK if it CHOOSES. However the EU is playing people against process just like Davies says.
Can you explain exactly why it's the EU's fault and not ours for making unreasonable demands?
UK is responsible for Brexit, not the EU.
Maybe it is time for you to take responsibilities for your actions and stop blaming others.
Can you explain exactly why it's the EU's fault and not ours for making unreasonable
They set a silly timetable that is meant to frustrate negotiations not accelerate them. Classic tactic, but exposed this time round.
UK is responsible for Brexshit, not the UK
😯 which conveniently ignored why people voted the way they did. Marvellous!!
according to Times Higher Education
Not that that would be as biased as a biased thing of course. Britain blowing its own trumpet again. Even if true that's before Brexit. How many graduates does China now produce per year, and the US, and Europe? You say Ireland with 6 million people isn't of concern to EU (it most definitely is as priority Barnier gives to an Irish solution demonstrate - more important than trade), well intellectually Britain is falling behind on quantity and quality, and a couple of elite universities educating wealthy but not especially bright foreigners won't change that.
It's easy to spot when you are exaggerating, Jamba. You let us know with block capitals.
Oxford and Cambridge seem to specialise in producing [u][b]upper-class twits divorced from reality[/b][/u]. Recently we have Johnson, Cameron and May.
It's easy to spot when you are exaggerating,...Oxford and Cambridge seem to specialise in producing upper-class twits divorced from reality.
A wonderful self pawn there Ed. :D. I like plenty of starch on mine...
the EU can agree a Free Trade Deal and a sensible border arrangement with the UK if it CHOOSES
How? the UK insists that it wants to check EU (at least non-Irish) passports at the RoI/NI border, how is this compatible with free unchecked movement for Irish (and returning British for that matter)?
The British navy blocking Irish ports and the RAf imposing a no-fly zone? 💡
got to love these business leaders who already backed brexit and got fully behind it.
dyson wants CAP subsidies left in place, well i guess you might as the biggest landowner in the country who does very nicely out of them, thank you, and witherspoon wants immigration levels to remain the same so his flow of labour remains intact.
i imagine we can look forward to dyson announcing he'll be bringing manufacturing back to the UK from malaysia imminently?
no, i'm not holding my breath either.
I'm not overly worried about Oxford and Cambridge's reputation now - more like in ten years' time.
So now that leaving is most definitely taking place, whether we like it or not, I think we now need to be concentrating on the way its being done.
Whats being proposed today is a ridiculous, and deeply worrying thing to be happening in any democracy. Its shameless opportunism, and indeed a blatant power grab, as even being pointed out by some less mental Tory MP's.
The words 'copy and paste' are being used about transferring EU law into British law by the Brexit bill, but that just isn't the case at all. Some laws will, some laws won't. And what does or doesn't is at the behest of ministers, without any parliamentary scrutiny, thanks to the use of arcane and totally anti-democratic, and anti-constitutional statutes. They've basically given themselves a blank sheet of paper to re-write our constitution
Have a think about that. Enola, Boris, Liam and Dave have got the opportunity to wipe laws out, behind closed doors, without any oversight. I don't know about you but I'd be hard pushed to think of anyone I'd trust less with that kind of power
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/05/eu-withdrawal-bill-executive-coup-brexit ]The EU Withdrawal Bill is nothing short of an executive coup[/url]
We should all be worried where they're taking us. They may be clueless in Brussels, but I'm pretty sure they already know what they're planning on doing with this new executive power. May is an out-and-out authoritarian who doesn't like oversight.
I wouldn't trust this lot as far as I could throw them. Someone is certainly taking back control. But it most certainly isn't the UK electorate
Recently we have Johnson, Cameron and May.
Don't forget our new PM-in-waiting Rees-Mogg.
Moog isn't a minister. Yet.
Oh, the bill also gives full power to ministers (with no parliament scrutiny) to exit without an exit agreement, when it wants, if talks break down. There is no provison for parliament to instruct government to try harder, or adjust its position, in order to get an exit agreement. Good news for the nutters only.
[url= https://thetab.com/2014/05/15/mps-14201 ]Where your MPs were indoctrinated[/url]
[url= https://thetab.com/uk/2017/08/31/the-guy-who-burnt-a-20-note-in-front-of-a-homeless-man-has-finally-apo-47564 ]And who they are before even being indoctrinated[/url]
I believe those rules are called "Freedom of movement", no?
Pretty much. I think he just wants it to come unencumbered by any of those tedious rules about employment rights and such like.
Which is the really fun thing about Brexit. The brexiters dreams of an ideal outcome are generally incompatible with their fellow travellers.
Sooner or later business is going to have to stop moaning and get on with the job
Yes we should all just jolly well toe the line.
that would be a good idea - Brexshit isn't going away, solutions have to be found, and we have to get on with it....
Nothing new there.
that would be a good idea - Brexshit isn't going away, solutions have to be found, and we have to get on with it....
I love this, how exactly, can me, the man in the street 'get on with it' or 'find a solution'?
Other than just carrying on with my life in general, which I think you'll find we all have, and being pretty pissed off that the drop in the pound has made my shopping more expensive, and tightening my belt accordingly, what exactly can I do?
*for the record I think brexit is a terrible idea.
Ah more patronising, are you not at all worried thm about the lack of oversight proposed? The powers being granted there? Feel free to be ambivalent here but give it a rest telling others to be, it's a democracy, people have the power and right to disagree, campaign and stand up for what they believe in.
solutions have to be found
source elsewhere (Britain doesn't have the monopoly on this idea, Jamba)
sell elsewhere
move manufacturing to the continent
switch to continental trading platforms
take school kids to Strasbourg rather than London
increase ferry frequencies to Ireland
apply tarifs to prevent Britain gaining unfair advantage from fiscal and social dumping
Make all those British tax fiddles illegal fro Europeans.
In fact the unusual aspect has been the resilience in the face of all the doommongers. Perhaps there are enough people getting on with life instead of remoaning
People have lives to get on with, jobs to do, goods to sell. All this plus the tsunami of negativity is unblanaced and not reflective of the reality on the ground. Sooner or later business execs will start talking about their plans for post Brexit and [b]opportunities[/b]. They well kniw a CEO who is all doom and gloom will be out in a heartbeat to be replaced by one who seeks to run his business in the best way given the circumstances confronting him or her.
All this plus the tsunami of negativity is unblanaced and not reflective of the reality on the ground
So hang on a second, let me get this straight.
People are telling you of all the problems they are seeing or expecting in their areas, and you are dismissing it even though it's not your area of business? That right?
Make all those British tax fiddles illegal fro Europeans.
Ireland should take the €13 BILLION in evaded taxes from apple the EU says it should and use those to boost it's economy rather than saying they don't need the money.
Sea transport is really really slow and won't work for perishable goods. The Irish are a major exporter of agricultural goods as is France, they need road transport. It's not about sourcing from elsewhere it's about their most significant export market.
Ireland is very exposed to the whims of the EU and they know it and are voicing their concerns publically
They well kniw a CEO who is all doom and gloom will be out in a heartbeat to be replaced by one who seeks to run his business in the best way given the circumstances confronting him or her.
Or perhaps they actually got to be ceo you knowing a thing going or 2, they are telling the truth. So you want to get them replaced with people towing trlhe brexit line regardless of what is going on? Sounds like the sort of idiot you wouldn't want in charge.
Oops Osbourne scores a massive own goal with this cartoon. EU workers just do the low skilled jobs eh ?
https://order-order.com/2017/09/07/standards-kelly-osbourne-moment/
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Jamba, THM - don't assume I didn't read it. As I said I saw almost exactly the same stuff from a Brexy about a year ago.
Given I never believed in economic Armageddon, I'm not surprised it hasn't happened.
I am expecting dead by a thousand cuts though, and the evidence is there for that.
As I said Jamba - Brexies, stuck in a fantasy or stuck in the past, both sometimes both. Your lot need to swap out you propagandists, their all a bit last year.
not reflective of the reality on the ground
f'ing priceless. i've given you several examples of the realities on the ground from our business, the increased costs and complexities, and you've roundly ignored them. funny that.
Sea transport is really really slow and won't work for perishable goods.
There is no alternative to Ireland. It doesn't much matter if goods go via the UK or France in terms of time. Roscoff direct avoids a sea or tunnel crossing and will in future avoid customs formalities which I hope will be slower than the extra time at sea. Im' sure that can be organised..
got to be ceo you knowing a thing going or 2, they are telling the truth. So you want to get them replaced with people towing trlhe brexit line regardless of what is going on? Sounds like the sort of idiot you wouldn't want in charge.
Telling the truth 🙂 I'll let TMH comment on that one in detail if he wishes ! I'll give you bank CEOs talming aboit their balance sheet strength and quality in 2007 and 2008 and they didn't have any "low quality assets", no none, not at all.
It's not about towing the line its about dealing with the world and making the most of it. Shareholders demand positive returns, a whinging negative CEO hankering after the past is appealing to preceisely no one.
Capacity Edukator. I've taken the ferry to Roscoff and sailed in there too. It's a small port and even to Roscoff it's slow. Cherbourg or Le Havre are better options, capacity ?
Ireland needs road transport via the UK and it needs tariff free access to the UK market. WTO tariffs are generally low except for agcriculture where the opposite is true. It's a big problem. PM May deliberately did NOT include agriculture as a priority in her 11 point Brexit plan to put pressure on the EU? Fisheries is potentially nuclear too, French and Spanish fleets would be devastated without access.
Have a look on your supermarket shelves, Jamba. Now consider the costs of alternatives to Irelend or the rest of the EU, transport time (as you seem concerned about the difference between Fishguard and Roscoff), cost, quality... . Short of a ban Brits will continue to consume EU produce in very large quantities becuase there's a shortage without..
Fisheries is potentially nuclear too, French and Spanish fleets would be devastated without access.
As would English fleet without access to Irish or Norwegian waters or importantly to EU markets as we only eat cod
If only there was some sort of large international cooperative union that we could be part of....
Oops Osbourne scores a massive own goal
Yeah massive, it's on all the news channels, I imagine he'll have to retire in shame 😆
Far from it, but that cartoon is a comment on May's leaked plans to specifically keep low skilled (or more correctly low paid) EU workers out of the country, or only allow them in for a maximum of 2 years with greatly reduced rights.EU workers just do the low skilled jobs eh ?
jambalaya - Member
Oops Osbourne scores a massive own goal with this cartoon. EU workers just do the low skilled jobs
Jamba - now you're being foolish. Skilled EU types will be welcomed in according to the government (Dominic on R4 don't you know) so it is just the low skilled EU types she wants to keep out.
British folk will be reserved for the low skilled jobs.
Now are you sure that's a good idea, skilled jobs for EU immigrants and low skilled jobs for British folk?
That's the idiocy of the immigration policy your lot propose - it will hurt the indigenous people more than it helps them.
Oh my god, is the penny starting to drop as to why frictionless trade with our geographically close partners might be key? Some people make/grow/rear/catch actual things, that need to be physically taken to market, not just move numbers around on computer networks.Sea transport is really really slow and won't work for perishable goods
and we have to get on with it....
Fortunately we live in a democracy so I can chose not to.
It's my democratic right.
Well done though for your persistent efforts to try & shut down the debate - it just encourages & inspires the rest of us to dig in deeper.
Keep up the good work!
I don't think the general public quite realise that food costs have gone up by around 25% over the last year. Many of the items that haven't increased in price have reduced in size or weight.
I own a small village shop, and we struggled with the increasing stock cost as they've kicked in.
Andrex went up by 25p for four last month.
Price marked £1 Harribo pack sizes have reduced in weight this month.
We are also being squeezed on margins - where I'd have a 35% margin before its now 24%. This then effects labour and hours I can give to staff.
It's not just effecting my business - the estate that owns the building is increasing rents as their costs start to spiral. And if our rent were to increase to much we'd fold or be forced to reduce opening hours.
Sad thing is that a large proportion of my customers (farming and elderly community) voted for brexit and would be appalled if the shop shut.
Now are you sure that's a good idea, skilled jobs for EU immigrants and low skilled jobs for British folk?
Ushering in a new era of serfdom?
A lot of the 'low-skilled' workers like fruit pickers are transient, turn up for a time, pick a specific crop, then move on.
The problem with Mays 'British workers' theory is that the fruit picking jobs are all in places like East Anglia and Somerset, but the unemployment blackspots in the UK are in places like Sunderland, Hull, Merseyside and North Wales
So are they asking the population of these places to become nomadic, and wander the land? Will they have their benefits stopped if they refuse to temporarily relocate to wherever, and live in a caravan on minimum wage?
Actually... I think I probably know the answer to that already. Have I just inadvertently let slip the next government proposal?
But remember it is the EU fault for not letting the UK have its cake and eat it.
Ushering in a new era of serfdom?
Wasn't that always the plan?
As if people picking fruits and vegetables are on minimum wages !
No one could afford them if that was the case.
The following Conservative MPs have been elected to the Brexit Select Committee:
Peter Bone
Chris Chope
Stephen Crabb
Jonathan Djanogly
Richard Graham
Andrea Jenkyns
Jeremy Lefroy
Craig Mackinlay
Jacob Rees-Mogg
John Whittingdale
(Simon Clarke, Vicky Ford, Gordon Henderson and Anna Soubry were all unsuccessful in their attempt to be elected)
Anna Soubry has made it clear she will vote with the Govt on the Repeal Bill. Add in the Labour Leavers and it looks like it will be a straighforward win
Thats the good thing about voting records, Just like the Iraq war vote, itll be easy to identify those who have brought the country low
Now are you sure that's a good idea, skilled jobs for EU immigrants and low skilled jobs for British folk?
Has there been any mention of low skilled workers from outside EU countries? Seems to me that immigration will continue, but with a workforce "free" of those rights and protections that EU citizens have, the very rights and protections our Government is stripping from us. Low tax, Low regulation, Low wage economy anyone?
This thread is going around in circles a little bit, leave won, the repeal bill will get through, and the leavers currently control the narrative.
As a hard remainer, my view is to defeat brexit, it has to be played out as it will defeat itself. This is already happening with leavers trying to attach the blame for this on remainers and the EU.
What is most important is what happens after we leave, and the first thing is remainers will have to seize the narrative from the leavers. I think there will be a significant shift in the political party's once the preachers of brexit have been put in their place.
Its going to take time, and when we return to the EU, we need to make sure that those who created this mess are held accountable.
Its going to take time, and when we return to the EU, we need to make sure that those who created this mess are held accountable.
if only!
if only!
Always with the negative waves Moriarty.
Its going to take time, and when we return to the EU, we need to make sure that those who created this mess are held accountable.
The issue I have with that, is if we go back, we'll have to go full EU, and there's no way I'm voting to join the currency union.
I don't think I'm alone in that view either.
we need to make sure that those who created this mess are held accountable.
Hi!
The issue I have with that, is if we go back, we'll have to go full EU, and there's no way I'm voting to join the currency union.I don't think I'm alone in that view either.
I don't know how you voted in the referendum, but yes full EU, perhaps the brexiters should have thought about that before starting down this road to their ruin, that the deal we had was a very good one.
The issue I have with that, is if we go back, we'll have to go full EU, and there's no way I'm voting to join the currency union.
Not quite. We'd have to pretend to intend to join the euro
Not quite. We'd have to pretend to intend to join the euro
I don't think they'd let us get away with that.
I voted remain, as although I'm not a fan of the EU, I reckoned that the deal we had was about the best situation we could hope for.
Also, if we try to get back in at some point in the future, will our economy even meet the Euro criteria, who knows? Not me, that's for certain.
Isn't that what Sweden is currently doing? Pretending to think about it? I'm sure we could fail to converge sufficiently....for ever....
But yeah, it's likely to be a worse deal overall than what we have. Most brexiteers will be dead anyway, there won't be any "holding responsible".
I voted remain, as although I'm not a fan of the EU, I reckoned that the deal we had was about the best situation we could hope for.
Indeed. I think anyone with anything between their ears thought the same. In the EU, with all the advantages, but outside the Euro, so with the financial flexibility that allows.
I truly believe that's why Dave (if we discount his monumental arrogance) went for the referendum. I don't think he thought for a second that he was the PM of a country that was so blinded by stupidity/racism/jingoistic claptrap/believing Boris Johnsons straight banana whoppers that they couldn't/wouldn't see it
No... unfortunately, once we're gone, we're gone. There's no way back. I keep praying for miracle that this process can somehow be stopped before it's too late, and the inevitable catastrophe starts to really unfold.
I think it'll be death by a thousand cuts, but as the next few years roll on, the cuts will become deeper and far more frequent
The problem is that everyone pinned their dissatisfaction with the EU on the no vote. People didn't vote for two alternatives. It was the status quo vs the great unknown.
The question that people actually answered was 'do you like the EU?'
No... unfortunately, once we're gone, we're gone. There's no way back.
I know you are a bit of a sad sack binners, And there are many who think that for this one decision democracy will be suspended indefinitely, it won't. When you look at the history of the brexit brigade, how it started, all it went through, and how it has accomplished its achievements, you don't think a return campaign cannot do the same?
Worse than that. Read up on Nirvana Fallacy.It was the status quo vs the great unknown.
No... unfortunately, once we're gone, we're gone. There's no way back. I keep praying for miracle that this process can somehow be stopped before it's too late, and the inevitable catastrophe starts to really unfold.
Agreed, once we have left that is game over. We won't be allowed back into the EU after our behaviour and arrogance over the last few decades.
Looking further, look at the performance of the British economy over the years, it has to be blunt been pretty crap. Looking at the quality of leadership at all levels it is pretty clear how badly the country has been served. Yes it staged a bit of a come back in the last decade but how much of that has been the UK and how much has been the UKs association with Europe.
As for any sense of prosperity, how badly has the UK managed to develop the UK regions? Does anyone think the UK will be any position to replace the various funding streams that have now gone. As for talk of taking back money, by the time all the necessary agencies have been replicated there won't be. Look at the current unemployment level and find workers? Either unemployment has been fiddled and there are lots out of work or there are no workers. Take your pick as too which lie/truth you prefer.
El-bent, it isn't about democracy it is about the democratic wishes of 27 other countries against the desires of one. There was a reason De Gaulle was so set against the membership of the UK.
you don't think a return campaign cannot do the same?
Dunno. That's not really the question though, is it?
Surely the question is why on earth would the EU want to allow us back in after all this shit?
Would you let somebody back in your house who'd come round to a party with, say 27 other friends, got pissed, insulted everyone, tried it on with your wife, then had a barney, curled one out on the living room carpet, smashed a few things on the way out, then refused to pay for the damge?
Loads of homeless people on the streets of Cardiff yesterday. Not seen that many before. None had detectable foreign accents.
molgrips - Member
Loads of homeless people on the streets of Cardiff yesterday. Not seen that many before. None had detectable foreign accents.
What are you trying to say?
Are you trying to say that the gov't don't build houses quick enough?
If we can leave in a way that doesn't cause too much damage to a remaining member (Ireland) and we don't go full on vindictive against the citizens of the other 26, then a future generation might let us back in. Keep on our current track and it's a 50+ year job.Surely the question is why on earth would the EU want to allow us back in after all this shit?
kelvin - Member
Surely the question is why on earth would the EU want to allow us back in after all this shit?
If we can leave in a way that doesn't cause too much damage to a remaining member (Ireland) and we don't go full on vindictive against the citizens of the other 26, then a future generation might let us back in. Keep on our current track and it's a 50+ year job.
There will be no EU bureaucratic system in few years time because the split will come from Eastern European states. The EU bureaucratic system will only remain in two to three countries like France, Germany and Luxembourg. The rest will revert to a new system of trading agreement.
Therefore, trying to prevent change is like trying to stop the earth spinning. 😆
Edit: You are right Kelvin.
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El-bent - Member
Therefore, trying to prevent change is like trying to stop the earth spinning.
Correct for once Chewkw. Don't think for one moment Brexit will be permanent.
System will evolve because that's the nature of thing.
Nothing is permanent in this Universe. Nothing.
For the moment it is the pleasure of dismantling the EU bureaucratic system ... 😛
sobriety - MemberI don't think they'd let us get away with that.
Nah, that's literally the rules- you have to commit to joining, you don't have to make a single positive step towards joining though and there's no provision to pressure you. Well established in practice. Also, unless I'm mistaken, Britain isn't in ERM2 and so isn't actually eligible to join the euro even if we wanted to.
Among the many stupid suggestion, that would take the biscuit
Funny how those who decried CMD''s deal at the time, are fin lay coming round to the recognition of what a great job he did (ruined by the attempt to portray this as an ability to reform the unreformable)
Barnier's whimpering about the bill marked air interesting climb down, keep going DD, when the back down there, you really will have made progress.
Onwards an [s]upawrds[/s] sideways
Barnier's whimpering about the bill marked air interesting climb down, keep going DD, when the back down there, you really will have made progress.
Missed that and scanning the news I can't find it.
A helpful link please?
Barnier's whimpering
I think it's being drown out with whistling and clocks ticking.
Radio interview IGM
Surely the question is why on earth would the EU want to allow us back in after all this shit?
And yet they do - guess why?
And yet they do - guess why?
Cooperation is a good thing
And yet they do - guess why?
Because an unstable Britain is bad for the EU.
Brexit is bad for the EU, it's no secret.
The money? Yes of course the money too.
teamhurtmore - MemberAmong the many stupid suggestion, that would take the biscuit
Who was that directed at? I don't see any suggestions closely above it...
He's talking about he UK joing the Euro, I think. Not that anyone was suggesting it.
I don't know who the CMD deal comment was aimed at though.
teamhurtmore - Member
Radio interview IGM
The one where he was accusing Davis of u-turning on meeting financial commitments?
I thought he was calling Davis out as a two-faced liar. In a very gentle way of course.
Ironically I have been writing a report on Brexshit today and posts were delayed.
It's was indirectly directed at IGM's joke about preventing to want to join the euro. No one is that stupid!!
The deeper I dive into the issues involved, the more convinced I am there will be a positive outcome - at least versus expectations. The alternative is such a lose lose and the economic arguments are so obvious that only ridiculous political self interest could trump this - oh, wait a minute.....
The alternative is such a lose lose and the economic arguments are so obvious that only ridiculous political self interest could trump this - oh, wait a minute.....
The UK's white paper on science today has some worrying issues, particularly about paying into H2020 and beyond, during the transition period, the lack of detail making life very hard for projects planned years in advance -the head of our institute made a joke today about reading the introduction to it but being unable to find the body of the text.
The immigration docs leaked yesterday were worrying enough, no deal scenario would just be too stood to contemplate to I'll & EU research