[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

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n achievable deal to be arrived at in a timescale that means that businesses and border agencies can prepare for it? Are you asking me that?

No something far more important. So why services over goods for example? Why not both? The easy question first...

Cake and eat it strategy is a high risk game

True, but then ....

being played by those that don't have to pay the price of failure.

You are kidding 😯 ???? HIstory is waiting, pen at the ready to cast her judgment - good or bad.

Odd. I dont know any remainers who thinks along those lines.

Me neither, hence my choice of the more appropriate sub sect

Millionaires losing their political legacy is trivial compared to what others stand to lose.

Their £5 each way bet on the 3:30 from Brussels ?

being played by those that don't have to pay the price of failure.

Tony Blair has never paid the price of destabilising the Middle East and failing to win the hearts and minds of the people of Iraq. He just got richer.

I really don't see May paying the price of Brexit. Just as the poor of Iraq suffered most, so will the poor of the UK.

Perhaps, but to the same extent as the poor of Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain

All better of inside the EU than outside it. All remember how nationalism and facism are no strangers to each other.

All better of inside the EU than outside it.

Nice to finish the evening with a rip snorting joke, Thanks.

Well, look at back at the 20th century history of those countries before membership.

See also Poland and the Eastern European countries now in the EU.

Good summary here

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-views-the-next-three-months-are-totally-unpredictable-11019976

Though I think something being missed is that Brexit was 2 fingers to the elite, Cameron Osborne the Eton toffs etc

Now the Brexiters are the elite, why do you think labour want Moggy to be Tory leader...

And Corbyns surprise success was again 2 fingers to the elite

All Brexit has delivered so far is inflation, political paralysis, it hasn't fixed the housing crisis, public/private debt, unemployment maybe low but wages are tanking, food bank use still rising, libraries still closing, social mobility still a fantasy for many.

The Tories are banking on Brexit keeping them in power, I think they are overestimating how much prime care about it compared to how much they just want their lives to improve, it's becoming obvious to all that Brexit can't fix that, or problems have always been in Westminster not Brussels.

Sadly I think Brexit will still happen the hard core xenophobes in government (those that resent foreigners having influence over British plebs as that is their God given right) will get it through however they can no matter how bad the deal is for the country. That's how much they hate the EU

All Brexit has delivered so far is inflation, political paralysis, it hasn't fixed the housing crisis, public/private debt, unemployment maybe low but wages are taking, food bank use is still rising

Blow me - not laterally mind - I hadn't realised it had happened already, That DD bloke has surprised us all!

Exactly and it hasn't even happened yet !

Watching my weekly shop bill rise , can't say im feeling generous to the brexies either

& That's the point your missing thm, those voters who came out for the first time & voted Brexit expected to be reaching the sunlit uplands by now...

You think the world is sitting around waiting for Brexit?
People are "getting on with it", as you keep proposing they should.
The costs start as soon as people and business change to fit.
Some of that cost hasn't happened as early as many predicted, because UK consumers bought the easy Brexit lie.
Even that will change at some point soon, sadly.
Would like to be wrong.

People voted for change. But change for the better. What happens when that proves elusive?

Thm (& jambs)

These are the people that swung it for the brexies, they want their unicorns.

It's only 12 mins- well worth watching, to understand what fueled brexit's win

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p05c0qm4/britains-forgotten-men-series-1-part-1

You think the world is sitting around waiting for Brexit?
People are "getting on with it", as you keep proposing they should.

Excellent, more progress. It's get better doesn't it.

The costs start as soon as people and business change to fit.

Perhaps but kimbers was wondering why the benefits were not accruing already. Can you help him?

(Might watch on the train tomorrow kimbers;-) )

Which benefits?

Seriously, unless they work for Tate&Lyle, what benefits are you expecting people to see, at any point in the next 5 years?

Worth watching all 4 episodes, it's a UK most of us are removed from

Kimbers many things fueled the Leave win, mostly though that the EU hasn't worked for most. It's been widely noted that a significant part of the Leave vote was anti-establishment. When you have Osbourbe/Cameron/IMF/Banks/Big Business pro-Remain the there is a problem. IMO the bewotnatbthe EU is "good" for the City was a key weakness for Remain. Working class voters (quite rightly) see Freedom of Movement as a big negative, low priced competition for "their" jobs, they are not dreaming of foreign job opportunities.

Edukator the EU favours the elite and big business. The "poor" voted against that and for something different. They'll be rewarded for that foresight.

How will they be rewarded?

What rewards will they see, at any point in the next five years?

Millionaires losing their political legacy is trivial compared to what others stand to lose.

Corbyn and Tony Benn before his are lifelong Leavers. Why not Left Leave's material and/or the Labour Leave sponsored piece @ninfan posted ? Have a look at the map, Leave was strongest in Labour held constituencies, thru won it for us.

We've done Minford. Keep up. Stand behind him if you want.

Why focus on 5 years Kelvin, thats a very short time line 2 years of which we will still be in the EU and who knows exactly what transition deal we'll have. If we are able to sign our own deals immediately post Mach 2019 we will have lower food prices, cheaper cars (Japanese and American) and many more export opportunities. We'll be free of ludicrous and irrelevant EU bureaucracy which holds business back and we'll distance ourself the EU debt crises.

We have a bright and vibrant future ahead of us and fhe "spoils" will go to those who embrace the opportunity

What rewards will they see, at any point in the next five years?

Jams that'd be the poorest regions, Brexit hasn't delivered what they were led to believe it would, since the vote- it's the opposite, more benefit sanctions, more homelessness, less money in the pocket.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/e9950ffe-f660-47fb-a109-198efad8882c

fhe "spoils" will go to those who embrace the opportunity

Okay Jamaba, 20 years… paint us a picture… feel free to focus on selected industries or geographical areas if you don't want to paint too broad with your brush strokes… how will "the poor" be rewarded for voting to Leave the EU…?

fhe "spoils" will go to those who embrace the opportunity

So how do these striking McDonalds workers 'embrace' the opportunities of Brexit?

Or for that matter, how can I?

[b]If [/b]we are able to sign our own deals immediately post Mach 2019 we will have lower food prices, cheaper cars (Japanese and American) and many more export opportunities.

Which countries have said they'll sign deals with us that don't just follow what they sign with the EU first?

What happens to our meat farmers? Where is more convenient than Europe for sourcing fuit, veg and salad?

Why will imported Japanese cars cost less than the cars they were building here to take advantage of our EU membership? What happens to those building cars here?

Name some significant export opportunities currently unavailable, that require is to Leave the EU to capitalise on?

How do "the poor" get their rewards in all this? What growth industries will be giving them better paid, more secure, employment?

cant wait to here how brexit is going to deliver what these guys think it will

warning sweary!
skip to 3:47

If we are able to sign our own deals immediately post Mach 2019 we will have lower food prices, cheaper cars (Japanese and American) and many more export opportunities.

The pound has already fallen by more the import duty paid on Japanese or American cars, Jamba. The EU rate is 4.2%. And 0% on foodstuffs. Things will be more expensive unless the pound rises to pre-Brexit vote levels.

which benefits?

Good question. Kimbers listed a number of criteria against which he assessed the impact of Brexshit (even though it hasn't happened yet). All a bit odd and random IMO. Why not add explaining the meaning of life, understanding why Englands wendys underperform and solving the which tyre question once and for all.

I would have thought the appropriate starting point was to focus on what Brexshit is about and what we are changing. So it is about the nature of our relationship with our largest trading partner and the RoW, the rules of engagement with both and the nature of any jurisdiction overseeing these relationships.

At its core Brexshit is about delivering a way of trading in goods and services with the EU without accepting the four freedoms and the jurisdiction of the ECJ plus enhancing (allegedly) our ability to trade with the RoW. Given that we are and always have been a trading nation, these are important questions.

So it see,s to me that the starting point should be to assss Brexshit on

1. Has the volume of trade in goods and services with our largest trading partners increased, reduced or stayed the same (it has fallen as a member of the EU, for reference)?
2. Has the cost of this trade been reduced, it's efficiency enhanced and consumer choice increased?
3. Have trade disputes been settled more effectively and more efficiently (without recourse to the ECJ ?)
4. Has the reduction in the volume of net migration into the UK had a positive impact on the labour market - both supply and demand?
5. Has the volume of trade with RoW increased, has its cost reduced and it's efficiency improved ?
6. Have we done this by ignoring the standards set for trade within the EU?
7. Has the level of autonomy over the nature of our trading relationships increased, decrease, stayed the same?
(Linked to bureaucracy question)
8. Has SBS* outperformed MSCI Europe index (*Seamus' Border Solutions for the uninitiated)
Etc.

We should only be assessing Brexshit against the issues its addressing. Perhaps after that we can see if it has had a secondary impact on wider issues.

distance ourselves the EU debt crisis

Given that we have no financial liabilities relating to the euro zone other than ongoing ones (eg, via the IMF etc), this seems an equally vacuous goal to assess Brexshit by

We should only be assessing Brexshit against the issues its addressing. Perhaps after that we can see if it has had a secondary impact on wider issues.

The impact of anti EU standpoints in the rise in hate crimes against foreign nationals rightly and legally in the UK.

The impacts to education, science, technology and the UK's standing in those areas along with research and the impact of losing Euro finding and collaborations.

An assessment of the impact on the UK's trading partners where the deals are currently with the EU.

The impact of any overtly [s]patriotic[/s] racist press coverage has had.

Plenty more criteria but I doubt it's worth checking back to see if Fred from Burnley or Trish from Hull now have jobs.

uncertainty - obvious, check
Investment - mixed
Hate crimes - plus ca change
Education and science - negative
Press - no change - actually the bugle has become less pro Brexshit and more balanced, the remoaners press less so

But the folly of all this is that Brexshit does not address directly many of the issues under debate, so it's a false dream for many.

But the folly of all this is that Brexshit does not address directly many of the issues under debate, so it's a false dream for many.

It won't even reduce the EU regulation Jamba disliked so much.

Of course not. Goods and services destined for the EU market will still have to comply with their standards. We just won't be involved in setting them. Of course we could always run dual standards 😉 but we know what that will do to operation costs and complexity!!

I think the science & tech white paper is out today, will see how that adds up.

Considering we are already losing EU healthcare, education & scientific staff, thanks to the vote & the atmosphere it fostered

The gov has to get this right.

We should only be assessing Brexshit against the issues its addressing.

So, top of the list… increase in NHS spending equivalent to 0.7% of our GDP?

So how do these striking McDonalds workers 'embrace' the opportunities of Brexit?

Or for that matter, how can I?

Of course we could always run dual standards but we know what that will do to operation costs and complexity

Not even sure we can do that in many areas, however much we may be willing to accept increased cost and complexity.
I'm working a fair amount on electric vehicles at present. Yesterday I arrived back from holiday in the Alps in my diesel car. Thanks to common standards / regulation my car works in Belgium, the Netherlands and France. We will need common standards and regulations to ensure the EVs do - and that's not a given as the manufacturers can't agree.

One example - there will be many others.

Chances are though we'll just have to accept what the EU decide in many cases. They used to ask our opinion.

I guess the McD's workers will have plenty of time to work out the best way to efficiently manage their investment portfolio's post Brexit to maximise their long term prospects under uncertain currency prospects before going back to you want fries with that...

Chances are though we'll just have to accept what the EU decide in many cases. They used to ask our opinion.

Indeed, that was my point. Still, we are now in control of being ignored.

David Davis is making a statement today in parliament on 'progress' in Brexit negotiations. So we can look forward to his smug self-satisfied face spending a great deal of time saying absolutely nothing

His briefings are making Enola's previous endless repetitions of the 3 words 'Brexit means Brexit' look thorough and insightful

Quite an achievement

THM - echoing, rather than adding or disagreeing

we are now in control of being ignored.

Wow. I agree with this THM statement.

THM - echoing, rather than adding or disagreeing

I also agree with this.

Chill dudes, we've still got over a year and a half of this. They may have won the referendum battle, but they are losing the brexit war.

Yesterday I arrived back from holiday in the Alps in my diesel car. Thanks to common standards / regulation my car works in Belgium, the Netherlands and France.

You take it for granted until it you find something where there aren't standards. Make sure your campervan or caravan doesn't run out of gas in France or Germany 🙂

Yebbut despite all the above thm actually wants them to win the brexit war, or so it seems...

Don't worry we are as chilled as a post negotiation press conference.

Even silly comments ^ pass with just a rye smile.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/david-davis-to-negotiate-brexit-by-pretending-to-be-deaf-20170905135129 ]David Davis reveals further Brexit 'strategy'[/url]

Most of the new charge points have a Type 2 plug, igm, the idea is to make that the standard in France. German charge points had them too. There are however about 80 different cards in Germany and I'd need about 15 to cover France. The German governement has now ruled that all public access charge points accept a credit card sometime in the future. At present it's the supermarkets that are leading the way, without Leclerc and Intermarché my Summer would have been costly and complicated.

Edukator - it may be about to get more complicated before it gets easier. And paying at the charging point probably won't work for mass roll out.

Hypothetical question: let's say there was a referendum on the terms, including a remain option.

Who would be campaigning for remain? Not the government/Tories ...

Who would be campaigning for remain? Not the government/Tories ...

Indeed

Labour not the Tories are now the party of business & prudence regarding Brexit- thanks to their new single market/CU stance

The Tories have boxed themselves in keeping the hardliners happy

Lol so perhaps, the 2016 leave vote was in fact a "stuff the tories" vote, and a 2018 remain vote could be too.

And paying at the charging point probably won't work for mass roll out.

It works for car parks, filling stations, toll booths; in fact just about everything except the Dartford crossing. There's the issue of charging taking over an hour rather than three minutes but I fail to see how restricting the number of people who can access a charge point is part of the solution. It's part of the "current" problem. That and ICE cars squatting, charged cars squatting, slow-charging cars on the domestic plug squatting (because they don't have the right cable), a roughly 50% "out of use" rate, charge point inaccessible due to market day... .

The most useful thing we own is our "blue plug" camper van adaptor along with a tent in the boot. That means we only have to find one working accessible charge point a day to do 500km a day without dropping below 20%

THM - Member
Even silly comments ^ pass with just a rye smile.

Is that like a healthy, bowel loosening, version of a regular smile?

Regular

Labour not the Tories are now the party of business & prudence regarding Brexit- thanks to their new single market/CU stance

Is this a remoan version of the lie-and-hope strategy that Brexshiteers used. Really kimbers, you BELIEVE THAT 😯

And you're a scientist too!

Lab are as committed to respecting the referendum result as the Tories (ie, split, cough). The only difference is that they have laid out that the transition period would be conducted under certain conditions that are likely to happen anyway. And that = prudence. Still they used that term before didn't they, and look where it got them!

"As committed"

Of course as we all know there's a much higher proportion of leavers in the Tory vote than in labour (where it's a clear minority). It may suit you to claim that labour is "as committed to brexit" but they most certainly are not.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

And shock horror the Government leaks their plan for how to treat EU nationals. Basically as badly as any other immigrant.

Except the difference is we are European and far more tightly related politically, culturally and economically to Europe than any other country or set of countries. Of course one would expect a closer more open immigration position than with places on the other side of the planet.

I suspect many more leaked documents will arrive on our screens - perhaps not from our government.

Given the EU know that the government's position will be unpalatable to roughly 50% of the British people, it's a great way to keep Davis et al on the back foot.

Of course the leak won't be traceable to the EU.

Of course the leak won't be traceable to the EU.

ah, yes, the leak came from the EU

mrmo, I am sure in posting your link that you were equally cogniscent of the current and real tensions that also exist WITHIN the EU re freedom of movement and possible restrictions relating to this. If not, then as a starter simple google Macron (the saviour of le projet) and polish workers and read about that spat. Then place the Guardian's (Remoan Rag) in the correct context

Populism and it's not so hidden bedfellow, xenophobia, are rife across Europe and the world. To suggest that this is isolated to the UK government is an exercise in extraordinary short sightedness and you would never risk that, would you?

Reading the article about encouraging employers to recruit skilled workers from the UK rather than overseas. It seems oblivious to the fact that employers might not actually be able to find the skills in the UK. If employers can't get the best people, and they end up working for overseas competitors, what's that going to do for UK businesses?

This can only be of benefit if we ALSO INVEST IN SKILLS.

FFS.

“Put plainly, this means that, to be considered valuable to the country as a whole, immigration should benefit not just the migrants themselves but also make existing residents better off,” the paper says.

Macron or May?

THM, you are also well aware that their have always been rules in place that the UK government never implemented. Having just driven back from Switzerland, Border controls between Switzerland and Italy, nothing, Switzerland and France, nothing. UK and France about an hour.

There are controls, there have always been controls. Talk about free movement is simply right wing bollocks. It doesn't exist. When most immigration is non EU, something that has always been controllable the whole argument smells of racism and not of control, of addressing any concerns.

Rather come out with more crap, how about the UK government actually being honest for once?

Less labour = labour costs up.

Is the customer willing to pay more?

Unlikely.

So the job gets automated away, or the job moves to the workers who will do it (ie abroad, like the car factories will).

It's not rocket science.

I recall the bloke whining on the Adrian Chiles doc, 6 kids, social housing, didn't look capable of much, voted leave because "the Polish come in and reduce the wages so I can't get a job to cover my costs".

Maybe you should have kept your * in your pants mate.

Are you going to turn out to the factory for an extra quid an hour?

Somehow doubt it.

And you had the f*** temerity to vote my FOM rights off me, and off my 6 year old daughter.

(Yes, still angry!)

As for gangmasters, expoitation, and so on - if it's illegal bloody well prosecute it instead of tolerating it! Don't need to leave the EU for that, just implement the law.

Judgy judgy ^^

The case for remain doesn't need to be made with prejudice like that.

-deleted, as I find myself falling back into the STW echo chamber. should know better.

have a good night all.

It appears that I may be behind you on the intake - however silent pool gin and fever tree tonic should help me make some sense of your post

mrmo - Member
THM, you are also well aware that their have always been rules in place that the UK government never implemented.

Perhaps, but how is this relevant to any of the ^. Looks like I need a double here

Having just driven back from Switzerland, Border controls between Switzerland and Italy, nothing, Switzerland and France, nothing. UK and France about an hour.

Or a triple. Did anyone mention Shengen or was I imagining that. Again relevance?

There are controls, there have always been controls.

Agreed, I used to argue that point with jambas

Talk about free movement is simply right wing bollocks. It doesn't exist.

Wow, there must be more right wing bollox spouters in EU than I thought. And to think all this time and money wasted on addressing an issue that is nothing more than bollox. What a funny old world.

When most immigration is non EU, something that has always been controllable the whole argument smells of racism and not of control, of addressing any concerns.

True but not relevant to the above. We are talking about a Remoan Rag attempt to suggest that an alleged position of the UK is either unique or abhorrent, Get with the game.

Rather come out with more crap, how about the UK government actually being honest for once?

From a man who admits that one of the most mportant principles behind the single market and a major point of contention is nothing more than RW bollox. Who needs Brexshiteers when I side come up with stuff like this. That's a corker!!! 9/10

Anyway, cheers! Time for me to catch up. Lovely.....

@mattjg wasn't that the argument against the Minimum Wage ?

Davies was interesting today, looks increasingky likely to me the Govt position is to agree to pay into the EU budget until Dec 2020 on the basis we have full access to the EU single market (without freedom of movement and able to close new trade deals) AND the future free trade deal we want. Not my first choice but good enough.

"Leak" of the Govt paper on post Brexit Immigration plans is interesting reading. Sky uses Gordon Brown's "British Jobs for British Workers" tag lime

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/revealed-eu-migrant-numbers-will-capped-brexit-leaked-home-office/

http://news.sky.com/story/leaked-post-brexit-immigration-plans-branded-mean-and-cynical-11022214

Meanwhile Macron tours E Europe trying to drum up support to change a regulation that relates to @1% of French Labour but can be used as a mask to cover up the reason for high unemployment and weak performance.

Sounds scarily familiar.... 😉

[i]"Whatabout…"

"…poorly thought out populist anti immigrant policies proposed in other countries…"[/i]

You can do better THM, the polices in the leaked document are as piss poor as the tighter regime May introduced for nonEU workers. I'm suprised at you defending it by deflection. Just agree that it's poor, and hope that it's far from the eventual policies that will be put in place.

"Leak" of the Govt paper on post Brexit Immigration plans is interesting reading.

"Fair and generous " is the official Newspeak line, I believe.

It appears that I may be behind you on the intake - however silent pool gin and fever tree tonic should help me make some sense of your post

I thought you were a rye drinker?

binners - Member

David Davis reveals further Brexit 'strategy'

A tactic used by Churchill when he really wanted to do something stupid and everyone else was saying no. There's a great recording of this in the cabinet war rooms, I can't remember what it is he's arguing for, explosive giraffes or something. If it worked in ww2 it'll work today, what patriot could object to Davis emulating Churchill?

I'm suprised at you defending it by deflection

Not as surprised as I am that you completed missed the point