Relax binns, go and have a ride.
Brexshit and the demise of Labour have plenty of time to run still....
Doesn't matter what I think Molls. What gets on my tits is that its now some kind of moral obligation for everyone to just accept this lofty metropolitan idea of a multicultural utopia, which cannot be questioned without having non-believers hysterically labelled as racists
I don't think that's necessarily the right conclusion from Richmond, Zak Goldsmith lost it by being nob, plain and simple.
I don't think this is fair, my analysis based on living here is:
(i) Inertia
(ii) Resources
(iii) Brexit
Binners, when exactly was Britain a monoculture, and what to you want doing with those who's culture only overlaps with yours, rather than matching it exactly?
I'm not expressing an opinion one way or another on multiculturalism
What I'm questioning is a lofty metropolitan assumption that everyone has to accept large-scale immigration as unquestioningly wonderful, and if you dare to suggest that it isn't all absolutely marvelous then you're a racist.
Because its exactly that arrogance that alienates and excludes people, by labelling them, and thus casually dismissing their concerns
Thanks for the list TJ, nice to have a few objective reasons.
I think the Brexit will give a higher priority to some of those, and in a straight choice between remaining in the UK or remaining in Europe, Europe would win. I look forward to a declaration of independence if ever Brexit goes through.
Binners - from where I sit immigration is a good thing. The NHS in which I work would collapse without immigrants. They contribute to the economy more than non immigrants so make the country richer
Binners - [b]from where I sit[/b] immigration is a good thing
And there you have it. I think its good, therefore everyone must.
I haven't expressed an opinion. Merely highlighted a lofty metropolitan attitude to the racist thicko's in the provinces, who's concerns are not legitimate and can be thus waved away
without having non-believers hysterically labelled as racists
Well that gets on my tits too. If there's one thing I am for it's decent thought and proper debate.
Edukator - I find it very interesting that the exit vote did not lead to an increase in the independence vote. Its a real thorny conundrum for the SNP
A large strand of opinion in the SNP want out of the UK AND out of the EU. 30% of all snp voters voted out of the EU. Around 20% of SNP votoers did not vote for independence in the referendum
The SNP have to unpick this and find some way of meeting their aspirations as well
Anecdotally I know a fair few died in the wool unionists who have said they would chose an independent scotland in the EU over being in the UK outside the EU but for some reason this is not reflected in the polls.
AS the disaster that is leaving the EU becomes more obvious perhaps this will change but time is not on the SNPs side because they would need to get an independence referendum thru before the UK leaves the EU to remain the successor state.
Binners - not waved away at all. Labour needs to challenge those views and explain an alternative narrative but somehow lacks the bollox to do so.
I want to see labour challenge the false reporting that leads to folk having these anti immigration views not to pander to them.
Public opinion can be changed by political parties. However labour lack the bottle to even attempt to do so.
"Well that gets on my tits too. If there's one thing I am for it's decent thought and proper debate."
This.
The vote was close. Focussing on real issues instead of name calling could easily have produced a completely different result.
It is a lot more difficult to explain the benefits of immigration in rural areas, or where there is low immigration. It is similar in France where the FN Scores highly in places with low immigration.
people make their mind with the information available to them not so much first hand experience.
true OOB - I think its one of the reasons Scotland voted in so decisively - not one single significant politician north of the border was for out and the SNP especially focussed on a positive campaign not a negative one.
I don't live in a city.
I am not a man of means.
My voice isn't listened to anymore than yours.
I am not a part of any Metropotian Elite.
There are lowlife like me who can see what the immigration blame game is all about.
And I will call it out at every opportunity, because you can be sure those seeking to blame immigrants will not stop. Ever.
There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
Me too, Scotland seems a much nicer place than England. (thinking about moving there)
The cold and wet puts me off though as weather is important to me. Not sure whose fault the weather is but I would imagine the brexiters have something to do with it.
Merely highlighted a lofty metropolitan attitude to the racist thicko's in the provinces, who's concerns are not legitimate and can be thus waved away
Of course, it must be remembered that remainer sentiment is not an exclusively metropolitan elite thing. Remain majority was pretty slim in most areas and plenty of rural non-southern constituencies backed remain.
I know you're not saying that, but plenty of non-metropolitan remainers might also think leavers as thickos. I don't think it's particularly healthy to risk painting it as a London vs everywhere else divide.
It's nice to see that such is the desire in some people to argue, that in the face of a lack of opposition people are happy to start arguing with others in the same camp.
😆
tjagain - MemberBinners - from where I sit immigration is a good thing. The NHS in which I work would collapse without immigrants. They contribute to the economy more than non immigrants so make the country richer
I'll forgive you for being misinformed on this subject as I believe you were still banned from this forum when it was last discussed, though many who weren't seem to have hazy memories as, like yourself, they quote opinion as proven fact.
On the subject of immigrants being net fiscal contributors, the actual results are not as clear cut as you try to make out.
The majority of studies only look at tax paid vs services used in a current instant, and do not take into account stages in a person's life when they are more likely to be dependant on the state, because it is too difficult to work this out.
And a question for you tj; do you think a constantly increasing population is a good thing?
I've not said at any point its a London thing Molls. I've said its a metropolitan thing.
And what I'm saying is that Multiculturalism looks very different in Middleton than it does in a cosmopolitan (and financilly better off) City Centre,.
Yet we have people, for example the leader of the Labour party, who absolutely point blank refuse to acknowledge that fact, never mind actually engaging with it, and airily dismiss those people who raise the subject as bigots and racists.
Which is manna from heaven for UKIP, who are happily sweeping up all the voters the labour party has so pompously and arrogantly dismissed as such
And a question for you tj; do you think a constantly increasing population is a good thing?
How else are most of us going to get our state pension paid for?
grumpysculler - MemberHow else are most of us going to get our state pension paid for?
Whoa there grumpysculler, I'm prepared to get into an "answering a question with a question" rally with tj as my Jewish heritage allows, but what are [i]your[/i] ethnic credentials for such an exchange?
🙂
Apart from the massive financial pyramid scheme the world seems intent on following, there isn't a single issue facing mankind that could not be mitigated by reducing our overall population over time. The quicker the better.
welshfarmer - MemberThe quicker the better.
WWIII? 😕
No one mention ponzi schemes...
Binners replace "racist" with "xenophobic" and you have a more accurate assessment. People appear to swallow stories that feed unfounded phobias and this makes them afraid. Yes, there is a job of education but equally some people are deaf to facts as these threads illustrate all too clearly.
No I don't sBob. However given the huge increase in world population then a small increase in our own seems about right - and we have more UK citizens living in the rest of the EU than we have EU citizens living in the UK so if all EU immigrants went home our population would be larger.
I'd happily trade all the pensioners we export for all the economically active young folk we import.
[quote=sbob ] welshfarmer - Member
The quicker the better.
WWIII?
I was thinking more along the lines of improved education (especially for women), improved social and economic conditions worldwide and increased availability of contraception.
But I guess your idea might be closer to what we will actually get
plenty of non-metropolitan remainers might also think leavers as thickos.
Actually I think it is the leavers who are quick to label the working class leave vote as in skilled, lacking in prospects, not as capable or hardworking as immigrants etc.
Strangely it seems to work for them.
tjagain - MemberNo I don't sBob. However given the huge increase in world population then a small increase in our own seems about right
I'm not sure what "seems about right" means. We're not going to reduce our (Earth's) population and the drain on its resources by only increasing our population "a bit".
I'd happily trade all the pensioners we export for all the economically active young folk we import.
But they won't be economically active for ever, like electric cars it is just moving the problem not solving it.
Anyway, you now have two genuine concerns that many Brexit voters (not that I was one) had that are not down to racism or xenophobia.
Apart from the massive financial pyramid scheme the world seems intent on following, there isn't a single issue facing mankind that could not be mitigated by reducing our overall population over time. The quicker the better.
Yup. Phosphates crisis.
EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as part of Brexit negotiations,
Suits me but seems a somewhat odd idea
The quicker the better.
sbob - MemberWWIII?
stop at one, halve the population in 30 years.
stop at one, halve the population in 30 years.
Yup, better than letting starvation, disease, war and global warming do it.
China managed it.
Why an odd idea TJ?
It is a brilliant idea. It means that Brits leaving abroad won't have to worry too much about their future. And it pushes the UK government to do something about eu migrants living in the UK.
tjagain - MemberEU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as part of Brexit negotiations,
Suits me but seems a somewhat odd idea
I'm already in the process of using my **foreignness to get an *EU passport. 😀
*As in passport for an EU member state, for the pedants, which is all of you. 😛
**Can't look at that word without thinking "mmmmm, Guinness". 😆
Is it being proposed because EU passports do not currently exist?
Re the opt-back-in.. wow.
That's quite a political bombshell, in some ways, isn't it?
cchris - 'cos folk like me would be UK citizens - but the UK is not in the EU but I would remain an EU citizen. What happens when my rights as a EU citizen are in conflict with my rights as a UK citizen? would I still have redress through the european courts even tho Westminster no longer recognises them?
It only applies to freedom of movement, nothing else.
A bit like a permanent visa.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Is it being proposed because EU passports do not currently exist?
i think you mean the EU dont issue them not they dont exist.
Here is a nice wee picture for you and then one for your franglais as well- I have no idea what it says as its beyond me
[img] http://www.nsl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FRENCH-PASSPORT-large.jp g" target="_blank">
http://www.nsl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FRENCH-PASSPORT-large.jp g"/> [/img]
And the sooner we get all that ****ing forren riting off its front the better.
, monarchy thing?
No Unicorns, one of them is on the front of my [b]UK[/b] passport which means - apparently - that they exist.
cchris - 'cos folk like me would be UK citizens - but the UK is not in the EU but I would remain an EU citizen. What happens when my rights as a EU citizen are in conflict with my rights as a UK citizen? would I still have redress through the european courts even tho Westminster no longer recognises them?
TJ is right here. The EU citizenship "offer" is a wheeze by Brussels to try and maintain the influence of European Courts within the UK. IMO it is most definitely not about protecting the rights of UK citizens in Europe, it's a (petty and ridiculous) threat to kick them out of Europe if we don't agree to European Court jurisdiction in the UK
My view it's a non-starter (European court and rights within the UK). If you like in UK you are subject to UK law only under the jurisdiction of UK courts only. EU citizens can remain
In other news I see now Cameron in not PM he is free to start calling for change in the euro, as he rightly says it can't realistically survive in it's current form. Too many states have had no growth for too long as a result of their membership, they need their own currency and a devaluation.
jambalaya - Member
Bob Edinburgh voted Remain for the same reasons London did, financial services.
Glasgow was 67% remain.
What was their motivation?
Bob, my view is that Scots recognised that if UK leaves the EU an Independent Scotland is MUCH less likely as it would most certainly have to rejoin the EU from scratch, ie no opts outs and definitely taking the euro. That is a hard sell to Scots and will create a period where an Independent Scotland is not in the UK or the EU. Plus you have the (daft) logic that it's better to have Brussels in charge of your laws than the Tories in Westminster.
Welsh, agreed the World's population is out of control. It may even be the long term sustainable UK population is more like (say) 40m than 65m
