[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

THM - not suggesting for an instant that all Brexies are murderers. However there is an interesting study, which I did post up a while back, showing how many traits they have in common with ISIS supporters (not the bottom bracket).

I was merely pointing out in response to your assertion that the remainers are now nastier than the Brexies that the remainers haven't got close to the extremes some Brexies got to (however much will power that is taking).

I'll see if I can find the survey linking the Brexy and ISIS traits.

Whattiler - flaccideers? 😉

Igm - you are proving my point again, spare the kids, Your kids. Refrain from wild exaggeration, it's in THEiR interests

[oh and just compare the behaviour of Brexshietters on here v our side who have tried - and succeeded in part.- suppressing them, abusing them, lying about them and getting them banned. Planks?!? Very unpleasant. ]

whattiler - that is a non-story in terms of what remainers want as there is always huge social pressure to go with the majority, however slim and whether or not it is a good idea.
The interesting bit is actually the Brexies who want to keep our relationship with Europe as it was 18 months or are willing to pay £12bn a year for access to EU markets (when we only pay £8bn now!). The balance point was £6bn plus a healthy £20bn settling of current commitments - so ten years plus before we'd win on that (if ever).
There does seem to be an immigration issue looking at the charts, but given our employment situation that isn't going to change - foreigners will still be able to come here. Of course we are going to lose our ability (to some extent at least) to go live in Europe. Cutting our nose off to spite our face?
Mainly that survey shows (confirms?) we're mad.

It seems there is a middle ground amongst leavers and remainers. I don't know what the term is for something in between hard and soft but it seems that's what type of brexit the public want.

I think the middle ground is a soft Brexit
- Leavers want a hard Brexit
- Remainers want no Brexit

Difficulty comes with what does a soft Brexit exactly mean...

One for your playlist IGM (JADB) 😆 ISIS 😳

THM - you are suggesting that me typing stuff on the internet with no threats veiled or otherwise is worse than the barrage of nastiness including threats of vilenc that one nutter acted on, the defacing of foreign related buildings etc carried out by folks supporting Brexit?

Really?

No hyperbole there, no wild exaggeration. Those things happened.

Now I'm sure that you know some lovely Brexies. I've met one that is OK too (perhaps more than one). But it is a bit like meeting a lovely old dear who wouldn't hurt a fly but is profoundly racist or something.
Nice people perhaps, but a nasty movement / grouping / result.

theocb - nice one. May I dedicate it to the UK's Brexit negotiation team?

Nasty result true - but we can and will get over it, if we try

. Of course we are going to lose our ability (to some extent at least) to go live in Europe.

Are you suggesting that the EU are going to use human beings as bargaining chips? Whatever next? I hope we are prepared for that eventuality....

one nutter

Both words prove my point exactly - QED

If that proves your point you may need to make it more clearly.

My point is for all that you suggest, rant even on occasion, about how nasty the remainers are being to the poor Brexies, there is precious little evidence of it. There is plenty of evidence the other way, the pinnacle of which was murder, but supported more generally by leafleting campaigns, gutter press headlines, defacing Polish community centres.

It may not be general, but it's not isolated.

This country is no longer the place it once was.

As for the EU using people as bargaining chips, perhaps but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the simple mechanics of raising barriers to people moving, equally on both sides, will not particularly affect people coming to Britain because there are twice as many immigrants as there are unemployed - so we'll still need a flow of people, the EU less so.

Of course if we successfully wreck the economy and trash the currency that will sort immigration for the Brexies.

just compare the behaviour of Brexshietters on here v our side who have tried - and succeeded in part.- suppressing them, abusing them, lying about them and getting them banned.

again? citation required, or at the very least 'report post'. it's not hard.

Planks?!? Very unpleasant

sorry - what does this mean/refer too? must have missed it.

oh and just compare the behaviour of Brexshietters on here v our side who have tried - and succeeded in part.- suppressing them, abusing them, lying about them and getting them banned. Planks?!? Very unpleasant.

Again lectures from the man who was the most recently banned person on here about HOW WE NEED TO BE MORE POLITE
Oh the ****ing irony.

remind us again exactly WHY you were banned...were you targeting an individual by any chance?

THis is going all through the looking glass

Whilst I dislike your smarm and patronising attitude on here you have never slipped this far from rational its just plain weird
Still you are getting attention so I guess we get to see just how far this plays out

Still hope its satire as it is not rational

Are you suggesting that the EU are going to use human beings as bargaining chips?

we are going to lose our ability (to some extent at least) to go live in Europe

Do you disagree and think afterwards free movement will remain- would you like to negate his point rather than mock it?
You agree free movement will be reduced so WTF have you made this point ?

This is desperate trolling THM

I shall leave others to feed you

Guys, THM and I disagree. I appreciate his lack of argument on that point, but I don't feel bullied or mocked. Merely that he has missed the point.

I can be pretty robust on here at times shall we say and others will do the same to me.

Que sera.

I'm a big boy and this is only an Internet forum - it isn't like racist graffiti or yelling abuse at school kids.

Ask him why he was banned

I just find it tedious that someone serially banned lectures us on good behaviour- its not like I would dish out this advice as I am also in no position to offer advice - though I have tried to get my own house in order re that... no ban for a couple of years the odd deleted post no warning either iirc so I just worked on me rather than telling others what to do.

Your last point re curtailed movement afterwards is clearly what will happen so I have no idea why he chose to "mock " it a he must agree that freedom of movement we have now will not be the same afterwards so your point is true. He has deliberately missed the point as it was very simple hence he mocked rather than try factual rebuttal - whilst also telling us all to be polite.

I agree its not bullying - I dont really see that on here just the more fringe posters being serially challenged and mocked for their views and how the facts dont support their claims. This i call rational. Sometimes its impolite but i guess that is inevitable when some folk wont listen to facts and want opinions on them - the survey posted being the most recent example and its not bullying to point out the flaws in the non sequitur conclusion drawn from it. Its actually helpful if they would bother to listen.

I take real offence at the implication by most people on this forum that everyone who voted to leave the EU is racist. I'd love to have seen you say that to the late Bob Crow and seen what reaction you got.

I didn't believe last year that everyone who voted leave was racist, though I knew a few who did and are.

But a year on it is becoming harder to give some of them, including some on here, the benefit of the doubt. Check a few likely characters' posts on other threads to see what I mean.

Now just because you're racist doesn't inherently make you wrong on every topic.

But it needs taking into account.

I take real offence at the implication by most people on this forum that everyone who voted to leave the EU is racist.

I dont recall someone saying all leave voters were racist- Ernie voted leave and he accused Jamby of playing the race card on the debates FWIW

Leave voters did so for many reasons racism was the reason for some though by no means all.

Stop making things up or provide the evidence that majority did this 🙄

man, this thread has descended into a special kinda shit! 😆

I too know people who voted to leave who are racist, also people who voted to remain who are racist.

The majority of people I know who voted to leave are trades unionists who have been on more counter protests against groups like EDL and Britain First than you can imagine. People who have been at the forefront of anti-fascism for decades. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

Back from tennis - let's see what have I missed 😉

I think I'm being accused of tarring everyone with the same brush.

I of course do not recognise that in my posts, but hey...

Guys, THM and I disagree.

Sometimes 😉

I appreciate his lack of argument on that point, but I don't feel bullied or mocked.

How can you be, you are on the OK side?!? ITs the Brexshiteers who cop it (and to a much lesser extent, anyone who points out how stupid the remoaners exaggerations are/have become. )

But on the living in Europe issue, IGM, you seem to be suggesting that we may face some restrictions in the future. I agree, this may be the case although the I am more optimistic that the EU would not be silly. BUt we shall see, BUT, and it's an important BUT, when May hinted that she wanted to get guarantees on this issue up front - quite sensibly IMO - and agree reciprocal arrangements, the remoaners get in a huff about playing polictics with peoples's lives and using people as bargaining chips. Not shit Sherlock - of course the EU would never do such a thing would they?!

Morning Joe, why the surprise, it's been raining hard! 😉

Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

you seem to be suggesting that we may face some restrictions in the future. I agree,

Why did you [s]troll[/s] say this originlly to him then if you agree?

Was it to balance up the attacks on the remain side?

Are you suggesting that the EU are going to use human beings as bargaining chips?

Glad you enjoyed your tennis and glad the winks are back to cover up your love of the troll

What was the ban again ...were you perhaps unfairly targeting someone and got banned...most would call this bullying.....anyway thanks for the lectures on bullying.

May fell short on the guarantees (relative to the ones the EU gave) and they don't apply to future FoM do they? The EU were quite open and fairly generous on citizens rights by comparison.

May, as always, was all talk and incompetence.

Tbh IGM I haven't follow the details on FoM closely enough recently. I am getting my hiring in quickly instead. But as someone who is in complete support of total FoM, I was very happy for May to insist on this being agreed up from - yes make it an EXPLICIT bargaining point because you knew it would be an issue and the EU would have no problem bargaining with it.. But naive remoaners thougt that this was a bad idea indeed.an immoral one. BIzarre....

It was a rare occasion where I agree with her, in that it was important to have this agreed as a first and top priority. We should have stayed firm.

yes make it an EXPLICIT bargaining point

Are you suggesting that the EU are going to use human beings as bargaining chips?

Perhaps when you get consistent an informed debate can break out?

But naive remoaners

Is this you being polite then with folk you disagree with
STOP THE BULLYING

It was a rare occasion where I agree with her, in that it was important to have this agreed as a first and top priority. We should have stayed firm.

Actually the EU agreed with that too. May claimed to agree with it then backed off when she actually had to put something on the table.

I do not find her impressive. If we had for example Ruth Davidson in the chair this would all be going a little better. Not that I always agree with Ruth, but she actually has some ability.

I think I'm being accused of tarring everyone with the same brush.

I of course do not recognise that in my posts, but hey...I'm just another delusional brexie

Interested in why you have kept this type of crap up for the last few months then?? 'fellow travellers', 'ISIS members have similar traits to a leave voters', 'worth noting that leave voters are racist'

Desperately trying to tar everyone with the same brush by any chance?
Quick tell us more about how you believe you're some sort of kingmaker in the negotiations 😆

JY - given I don't regard myself as either naive or a remoaners (not actually sure what a remoaner is) I'm finding it difficult to take offence on a personal basis.

theocb - kingmaker? Certainly not. Very small cog in a very large number of large machines.
Keep trying. 😉

And months? There's years and years of this to go. The Brexies took 40 years to get another referendum, I'm hoping to get a result sooner, but I'm patient.

Oh and find me the non-factual bit.

Oh and find me the non-factual bit.

I'm stumped tbh. Triple lollies.

But on the living in Europe issue, IGM, you seem to be suggesting that we may face some restrictions in the future. I agree, this may be the case although the I am more optimistic that the EU would not be silly. BUt we shall see, BUT, and it's an important BUT, when May hinted that she wanted to get guarantees on this issue up front - quite sensibly IMO - and agree reciprocal arrangements, the remoaners get in a huff about playing polictics with peoples's lives and using people as bargaining chips. Not shit Sherlock - of course the EU would never do such a thing would they?!

Someone's been smoking something it seems. About the only thing the tories have agreed on from the start is that they want to end freedom of movement.

IGM , you are much better informed on this that I am. Being a fan of full FOM I am very much in the minority on this issue and have blanked it out in the short term. It's too depressing

TBC and to repeat, I do not find May impressive (other than in the very short honeymoon period when she first became PM). As I have said before, I would prefer a combination of the likes of Hammond and Starmer than the current bunch. But that isn't going to happen because petty party policies will always get in the way.

(BTW I enjoy our debates and hope that comments on the previous page did not get misinterpreted)

indeed captain - at least some of them. Crazy idea. But they are not alone in that stupidity. Both major parties have a xenophobic wing that have to be catered to.

So it's hardly the EU being silly then is it.

Who said it was?

Of the Westminster bunch, who sadly look a little second rate these days, I'll agree with Hammond and Starmer.

Sadly we appear to want grown ups as politicians - so no chance also agreed.

BTW I enjoy our debates and hope that comments on the previous page did not get misinterpreted

If and when I take offfence I will be very clear about that. I enjoy a robust debate and from my point of view that's all it was.

I did take offence at something someone else said on this forum, said so, we took it to the PM service, and I think sorted it out. No moderators were involved.

Like I said, big boys rules. No harm / offence should ever be intended, but if it's caused, folk know where they can PM me.

Not even a debate tbh, just thought attempting to link Brexshiters to ISIS was far fetched. Very far fetched. Nothing more esp given the evidence at that point was the "one nutter".

The Brexy-ISIS thing was a survey about 18 months ago (pre-vote, though I think it was published after I can't recall) of 24,000 folk as I recall which asked questions along the lines of "do you support the death penalty?" or "do you support public flogging for sex crimes?" amongst a whole load of more mainstream questions about affluence, class, political allegiance etc - all the normal stuff.
The questions that correlated best with Brexit voting intention were death penalty and public flogging - things ISIS was doing at the time.
I am not suggesting that Brexies support ISIS - I suspect quite the reverse, though I don't actually know that.
Rather I suggest that there are parallels in some of the regressive and reactionary thinking is displayed by both.
How it comes out reflects your cultural background and influences.

Is that a little less far fetched?

Marginally

PS not was I suggesting Brexies are terrorists - thought hadn't crossed my mind (though you have gone and planted it now).
Wreckers? yes
Widespread nasty actions with an absolute pinnacle way beyond anything the remainers have done? undoubtedly, that's documented.
Encouragers of hatred / racism? well that poster of Farage's was pretty near the line, make your own mind up
But not terrorists - I wouldn't accuse them of that.

teamhurtmore - Member
Marginally

I'll take that 😉

thm, you specifically talked about the EU playing silly buggers in respect of freedom of movement. Since May insists that FoM will end, it is entirely specious to claim it has anything to do with the EU.

I will leave you to reread what I actually said.

On the issue of FoM it seems to me that the decent thing to have done would have been to say "we recognise that people have personal lives that are inextricably linked with the freedoms that the EU has provided over a long period of time, and that to revoke those freedoms would create pain where none is deserved. We therefore unilaterally undertake to ensure that nobody currently benefitting from the UK membership with regard to FoM will suffer in the future as a result of the UK's unilateral decision to leave the EU" (or equivalent lawyerese)

Of course other countries woukd then be able to play silly buggers, human bargaining chips etc. That is for them and their consciences.

apparently this was suggested in cabinet [ according to Osborne] and the only person to object was May

I think it was posted on here and an article in the evening standard on this

The Brexy-ISIS thing was a survey about 18 months ago (pre-vote, though I think it was published after I can't recall) of 24,000 folk as I recall which asked questions along the lines of "do you support the death penalty?" or "do you support public flogging for sex crimes?" amongst a whole load of more mainstream questions about affluence, class, political allegiance etc - all the normal stuff.
The questions that correlated best with Brexit voting intention were death penalty and public flogging - things ISIS was doing at the time.
I am not suggesting that Brexies support ISIS - I suspect quite the reverse, though I don't actually know that.
Rather I suggest that there are parallels in some of the regressive and reactionary thinking is displayed by both.
How it comes out reflects your cultural background and influences

Oh dear oh dear, the STW fact checkers are going to have a field day with this horse shite... surprised it's slipped through the net to be honest

theocb - about your normal standard. Check away. I'm in the mood for some comic relief today.

By the way are you enjoying Brexit slowly disintegrating?

I know I am.

[i]MY[/i] normal standard.. delusional as ever kingmaker.

Post up this Brexit/ISIS survey for starters. Let's all have a look at what makes an ISIS member tick and see how the survey interprets that info and connects it to people who voted leave. I'm intrigued, I'm hoping you haven't made one of your looooooong leaps again.

Fact checking 😀

Brexit isn't disintegrating - we are moving closer to positions of compromise. Even the nutters are closing in on a decent transition period. It's getting better each week....The nutters are becoming marginalised

theocb

Oh dear oh dear, the STW fact checkers are going to have a field day with this horse shite... surprised it's slipped through the net to be honest

No one will even bother. He's equating ISIS, The Islamic State, probably one of the most vicious evil bunch of murderous degenerates on the face of the earth with people who voted leave. This ties in neatly with the [i]STW Leftist Village Echo Chamber™[/i] worldview that anyone who voted leave is at best a xenophobe, which means racist, and obviously a bigot and misogynist too.

I voted remain fwiw, but when I see this kind of blatant intellectual dishonesty, the desire to lie, mischaracterize, slander, and dehumanize people because they have different political opinions it makes me sick.

What's amazing is that people who act like this and spout this BS, either in public or online still can't see how they themselves are part of the problem. How their attitudes and actions have fractured politics, destroyed rational political debate and contributed to the shit storm we're currently in.

....awaits another three week ban.

[IGM - just picked up the message thx.. Interesting thoughts. But more importantly, very, very best wishes]

Gentlemen - start by reading what I wrote rather than what you'd like to think I wrote.

Following that, read this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544

Then follow it through to the referenced survey.

At no point, just for the avoidance of doubt did I say theyd surveyed ISIS (sorry to disappoint theocb).

😀

THM - the mood I'm in today this is positively uplifting. And thank you for your last but one post.

Jimjam - I know I'm part of the problem - or at least a problem. And I'm content with that - I can be no other way.

Been there recently - keep posting/chatting/arguing 😉

😀 ..not disappointed, it's exactly as I thought, another delusional misrepresenting a report to make looooooooooooooong and offensive leaps to suit their own bias.

How can we fact check the claimed connection between leave voters and ISIS members if you don't have any facts on ISIS members?

Read what I wrote.

And assume that while I may set out to challenge I do not set out to offend. So be not offended but thoughtful. For by failing to do so you argue my case.

😀 So the link between leave voters and ISIS members was just your own made up horse shit? Not offensive no siree, very considered and thought provoking Captain delusional.

Thanks.

I'm guessing that you didn't read what he wrote then?

theocb - nope.

Have you read the paper based on the survey referenced in that article?
Do you deny that ISIS have previous for capital punishment and flogging?
Ok - so both groups share some values. Agreed?

Now no one is saying that Brexies are terrorists (one Brexy or Brexy influenced individual excepted)

However both groups are quick to offence, demand one version of the truth which all must believe (perhaps a little exaggeration for effect, but you remember "enemies of the people" or "crush the saboteurs"?)

The thought processes are disturbingly similar.

Of course background and culture leads to a different expression of those thought processes - thankfully.

And yes I prefer Brexies to ISIS.

But on a brighter note, thank you, you have provided a fun diversion on an otherwise difficult day.

both groups are quick to offence, demand one version of the truth which all must believe (perhaps a little exaggeration for effect,

Perhaps....perhaps???? 😉 you finish the night with the fun medal _ theocb is a distant second

Oh go on - joint first place for him

No chance 😉

[anyway, sleep well and very best wishes and +vibes ]

[quote=jimjam ]He's equating ISIS, The Islamic State, probably one of the most vicious evil bunch of murderous degenerates on the face of the earth with people who voted leave.

I'm not sure about an IQ test before allowing people to vote, but a comprehension test before posting on STW might improve the standard of debate.

Yes It's difficult to "comprehend" this 😉

THM - to be fair though, the remainers even now have refrained from killing people they disagree with. Unlike say, ISIS or the Brexies.

Excuse me IGM 😀

Two people doing the same thing does not mean that those two people are the same.

Stop trolling THM!

Lame excuse e4-e5

Right THM, that's you banned for the same offence as jimjam. I can't think of a single other reason for your post than your inability to comprehend - feel free to offer one up though...

Isn't it past your bedtime anyway?

😀

At least IGM had the grace to elaborate in private - but carry on. Watching gross exaggeration is fun.

😀 "banned" for not swallowing BS - brilliant 😀

Guys - while this is factually correct, let me accept I worded it badly.

THM - to be fair though, the remainers even now have refrained from killing people they disagree with. Unlike say, ISIS or the Brexies.

I was not suggesting both ISIS and brexies should be on the list of proscribed organisations - merely that one or more of their supporters might have transgressed on the old Thou shalt not kill thing.

I do not equate them although they share some values - according to news on ISIS and research surveys on Brexies.

THM has seen my wider theories on angry people.

THM - explain as you see fit. Disagree as you see fit.

Bravo IGM,

[now where's my teddy as its beddy byes 😉 night night kiss for aracer ]

aracer - Member

jimjam » He's equating ISIS, The Islamic State, probably one of the most vicious evil bunch of murderous degenerates on the face of the earth with people who voted leave.

I'm not sure about an IQ test before allowing people to vote, but a comprehension test before posting on STW might improve the standard of debate.

Oh LOL! You just insulted my intelligence! The exact same reason I got a three week ban (that in addition to multiple warnings for abusive behavior towards forum members, despite not having been abusive to forum members or receiving any warnings for any abuse!).

I mean, it's almost as if the moderators of STW Left Wing Echo Chamber Village would fabricate evidence in a sham trial that only they themselves preside over!

It's cute that you think you can hide your dishonesty behind an attack on my ability to comprehend written English. Let's just let people character assassinate anyone with an opposing political view point then argue the semantics of whether or not they meant to draw unfavorable comparisons with ISIS.

Jimjam - please, I do not equate them. I equate some of their values.
If that is a problem, send me something nasty by PM.

As I said, I challenge deliberately, any offence is accidental.

PS if you think this is an echo chamber (and arguably to some extent it is) you should wander by some of the Brexy echo chambers. I find them fun and horrific in roughly equal measure.

Ignore. The forum is drunk