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So the Greek crisis was all down to those nasty Germans,
That's not what I said, so no point responding to the rest of your diatribe.
yes economics has laws - something politicians ignore at their peril in the LT - hence we KNOW that the Euro is toast. It confounds basic laws of currency arrangements - hence the damage that it continues to exert across Europe
There are two sided to every story. The Germans are as much to blame as the Greeks. Montagues and Capulets in the same misguided love agair. Pity the young in that story....
Indeed Hurty. The Euro is a ridiculous and unworkable nonsense. And it is indeed six of one, and half a dozen of the other when it comes to the inevitable crises. But I was just highlighting the ludicrous attitude of Corbyn and the left towards the EU.
If only there were some way of being in the EU but outside the Euro? Surely that would be perfect? The best of both worlds?
Oh....
something politicians ignore at their peril in the LT
Supposing that politicians give a flying fart about the LT. That's someone else's problem - the young mostly.
ut I was just highlighting the ludicrous attitude of the left towards the EU.
And I was highlighting the rose tinted specs that some people use when viewing the EU. It has benefits, and I voted Remain, but it's far from perfect even beyond the mess that is the Euro.
I couldn't agree more. The EU is profoundly undemocratic.
But in this case it is most definitely the lesser of two evils
I walked away from this thread some time ago, it wasn't helping my frame of mind if I'm honest. Most of us agree Brexit is probably a disaster, those that don't, don't care, they're happy for others to pay the price.
But feel I should drop this here as I recall Jamba saying loss of the EU's agencies was of no consequence to the UK. "Good riddance", in effect.
Loved JRM trying to explain that trying to overturn Brexit is anti-democratic.
Given we all agree he's a bright if misguided and self-centred lad, he knows that all democracies overturn previous votes. It's what they do. The only question is does one do it via the ballot box or debating chamber (democratic) or via force or corruption (undemocratic).
Of those the Brexies and Brexit seems to be in the corrrupt, undemocratic area.
😯
[the only important news in past 48 hours is the growing, if incomplete, consensus amoung the Gov as to the nature of the transition period - progress....]
Keep negotiating guys and girls...
To negotiate you need aims and objectives, not sure there is a consensus around those two things...
IS that because the majority of the MPs and probably the public now oppose it that its anti democratic or is it because he is massively pro Brexit?Loved JRM trying to explain that trying to overturn Brexit is anti-democratic.
I am not really sure how we get another vote given Mays insistence but it will take some cross party rebellion by both sets of Mps's against their leaders.
It may well come to this but at this moment in time I see little likelihood of such a scenario but it could occur if Brexit negotiations are a total shambles/complete mess.
Hum interesting not a single post from the Remainers on the EU Commissioners travel disgrace or the Polish Chlorine / Formaldahide chicken issue (required treamsnt to stem Salmonella outbreak) or Dutch egg scandal. EU vested interests in farming to the fore mixed with that epically proportioned EU gravy train.
It's taken 3 years of legal battles to get the EU to disclose [b]anything[/b] about their travel and even then they refuse to release any detail other a brief 2 month period. Private Jets Brussels to Strasbourg. Remember these are civil servants not heads of Government (well excpet in their minds where the contrary is the case). I saw a piece on Newsnight where someone was tryin to compare Junker's trip to Rome to Theresa May's trip to see Trump. Internal EU meeting versus going to meet the keader of the most powerful nation on earth undertaken by our elected head of state.
https://order-order.com/2017/08/09/eu-mired-summer-food-safety-scandals/
https://order-order.com/2017/08/09/junckers-junkets-commissioners-spend-e500000-travel-two-months/
Criticise the EU, point its flaws and required fixes? Absolutely. It's far from perfect.
But leave the EU to improve food safety? Get real.
If there is a second referendum and leave win it again, would you accept the result? or would you campaign for a 3rd ,4th etc?
I'm open to a 2nd referendum if it looks like something material has changed, but I dont think it has
Post Brexit farming regulation explained.....
Julians - Well given remain won the first referendum and leave the second...
No, you accept the result of course, and I do, but not the position which you keep fighting. That's democracy. We get to keep on fighting for what we believe in
Same as Farage who said before the second referendum that if it was 52:48 he'd want a third referendum.
julians I think I'd keep campaigning until I decide leaving is good for the country, the young in particular.
but you're right now is certainly not the time for a second referendum. when the real world conequences of leaving start to become evident, that may be it, because leave voters will truly know what they are voting for.
personally I also struggle with the concept that other people voting my valued rights off me without my consent, and off my daughter, who was born with them, is democracy. double that when it's the elderly (in my family too) who quite frankly have no skin in the game and are voting about how they feel about what happened 40 years ago, regardless of the consequences on those who have to live the best years of their lives with the result.
(as you see, no, I'm not over it) ;-).
[quote=julians ]If there is a second referendum and leave win it again, would you accept the result? or would you campaign for a 3rd ,4th etc?
Personally I would accept a vote if it was informed and not one with unachievable goals and blatant lies. Its obvious we wont get what Leave campaigned for as it was at the time.
the will of the people and the move from soft to hard Brexit?I'm open to a 2nd referendum if it looks like something material has changed, but I dont think it has
More popel realise the "arc of propseroity" leving the EU was pie in the sky and the crushing if "red tape" means the erosion of your rights?
I think a hard core of voters will always be remain and some [ THM} will accept it now and "get on with it"
A number will always remain opposed to the result
Me less because of the result and more because of how it was won - lies, BS and more lies
Its fair to say Remain also did a risible campaign of fear, fear and more fear till the only money left safe was the money in my kids piggy bank
get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunch
Bon Appetit
-- redacted, not worth it.
-- redacted, not worth it.
teamhurtmore - Member
get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunchBon Appetit
Interesting. Was that aimed at leavers who didn't support the first result or remainers who didn't support the second?
And get over what exactly?
The result neither needs getting over or not getting over. It's history. We're a democracy therefore the fight to protect our children's rights against the wrecking Brexies goes on.
It is the only morally acceptable thing to do.
it has to be a void result anyhow
these foreigners were allowed to vote
in other news
it turns out high ranking civil servants are bent, taking backhanders and living the high life.....ooooh wiff of jealousy, who wouldnt if they could
Talk of another referendum is all well and good, as is the idea that Parliament should have a vote on the final deal but unless Article 50 is revocable (or can be made so) it's all academic.
It is politically whether or not legally - which is why Davies et al are doing their best to alienate the Europeans to remove the political option.
get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunchBon Appetit
Lets all jump to our deaths for Britain!
A way would be found.
Yes that's why Davis is trying to burn the boats.
My expectation is a dramatic toys-out-of-pram walkout, and termination of talks, once the bill is put on the table. That's why the UK's not bothering to do anything now and just letting the clock tick.
There'll also be no selective opt-in continuation of rights for UK citizens, which I suspect the EU would be in favour of, because the UK government won't ask for it.
Tough shit kids, grandma knows best.
Tough shit kids, grandma knows best.
Tough shit kids, Grandma's coming home, along with another million ailing pensioners we'll be swapping for a big chunk of our workforce. Including the key NHS and Social Care workers that would have come in so handy.
No need to jump anywhere - apart from into the dark!
Much better to get beyond the denial and grief phases, accept what is in front of us, and focus on what you can control and do positively
And much, much better than wallowing in self-pity, recriminations (those nasty Brexshiteers lied to us, it's not fair) and wild exaggerations. That just make a bad situation worse.
Its not whether something is bad or good that is important, it's about the character we show in responding
unless Article 50 is revocable (or can be made so) it's all academic
As noted the EU can do fudges easily so if they want us to stay then it is
IGM is wise that the pro brexit nutters may well just be trying to be complete arseholes to make sure this is not an option though I personally go for hopelessly inept dullards guided by a hubris only surpassed by their lack of skill in diplomatic areas
Much better to get beyond the denial and grief phases, accept what is in front of us, and focus on what you can control and do positively
Agreed THM. There's no denial here, a little sadness perhaps for what the Brexies have done to my children, but not grief.
Now in terms of control I am doing what I can (a little here, a little there, nudging the odd company's managers, whispering to the odd civil servant, ranting and raving on here for the humour of it - this forum ain't going to change anything directly, but...) and it is absolutely positive to try and dismantle Brexit. The means are sometimes murkier but the end justifies them.
One thing that the pre-vote forecasts showed us was that the real hit was actually surprisingly small and subject to very large sensitivity to different assumptions. The damage to our children is far greater from other sources.
Whatever happens over the next 2 (10?) years we are still going to be trading with our European friends, we will still be interdependent with all parts of the world - that is what we do - we will still have our skills and resources and we will still be successful. The degree to which we are the latter depends on how sensibly we react to what is in front of us and how quickly we move on.
It's is very difficult to do what no one else has ever done - hence our expectations re timing etc should be realistic not silly pipe dreams (that goes for remoaners and Brexshiteers). We will get through it. Why? because that is what is in EVERYONEs interests.
I don't need to "get through it" everything was perfectly good before.
How many anti eu demonstrations were there before the referendum? None.
No one really gave a ****. The eu was on par with moaning about the repeats on telly.
A large part of my business is selling Belgian chocolates.
The cost has already rocketed. Once the tariffs go on we won't be able to sell them anymore.
Of course it will all be the fault of those nasty euros.
We try and swallow as much of the price increases as we can.
Your stupid pathetic flag waving is costing me money and maybe even my staff their jobs.
Well done you ignorant ****s.
What %age of the Belgium export market for chocolate is to the UK?
I don't know and it doesn't matter.
What matters is me being able to trade and my staff getting their wages.
Thanks for telling us we are in grief and denial over the result its good to know there is no issue you cannot patronise us on so somethings have not changed.Much better to get beyond the denial and grief phases, accept what is in front of us, and focus on what you can control and do positively
What we can do is oppose it and try and reverse it which is as positive as we can be with this cluster **** of an idea and this omnishambles of a "plan"/implementation.
I can accept your view of just getting on with it but I am not sure why you cannot accept that some folk still wish to oppose it [and they are not all in denial or grief].
Both seem perfectly fine positions for a person to have - only an instance it will be of [economic short term]benefit to us to leave deserves such levels of derision.
Well it does matter. If the UK market is an important export market for Belgium then there is a greater likelihood that the margins squeeze could be greater for the exporter than the importer. What happens if you stop importing B chocs tomorrow. What would your suppliers do?
Tell you what THM I'm going to **** those nasty ****ing euros right over by going bust now.
That'll really show them.
All over this country people like me are facing similar problems
Of course we will face going to the wall with our heads held high.
Maybe in 10 years our glorious leaders will have sorted a free trade on chocolate but by then it will be too late.
That's not answering the question - it's a serious one. What pricing power do you have?
None.
The price in the book is the price we pay.
Shall we phone up hmrc and try and get our tax bill down?
No, that would not work.
Well if you have no pricing power, then your business is [s]fu@@ed[/s] in a very difficult position. If it really is zero, diversification (high end UK chocolates) or exit are your best bet. One thing for sure, you will have to do something. Brexshit ain't go away and parity looks increasingly likely. Good luck
THM while there may be a solution in the future there is already an impact to businesses and consumers and nothing has happened. I think that the uncertainty and stress associated with this is what is frustrating Zippy. It only takes a short term dip for small businesses to fold and if I look at my local high street never come back 🙁
In all honesty I would hope that the government focused their free trade efforts on the basic food stuffs and the power that comes through the undersea cables. Anything that is a luxury item which gets sorted first will perhaps show negotiating resources are not used wisely.
Business plans need to be in place well before any "deal" is announced and the bit of a mess of the process so far is not helping with planning. I know the company I work for has frozen all new works in the U.K. And is moving 3 of the plants to mainland Europe which is shit for everyone
I don't doubt the stress levels - remember I was a remainer who highlighted uncertainty as one of the biggest risks - and for SMEs it is very, very stressful indeed.
I am frustrated too, but life's tough and sometimes shit. But you have to deal with it.
With parity likely on €£ it's going to get tougher for ZK - hence my "good luck"
It's no comfort to him, but exporters of UK chocolate are having a field day 😯
interesting not a single post from the Remainers on the EU Commissioners travel disgrace or the Polish Chlorine / Formaldahide chicken issue (required treamsnt to stem Salmonella outbreak) or Dutch egg scandal.
what? we're supposed to argue your side of it ourselves now?
in any case for the life of me I can't see the link between stuff that shouldn't happen like this and us leaving. people do bad things irrespective of whatever flag waves over their heads. they shouldn't, they know it, and they should be punished for it. how does us leaving alter what other people do?
of course this sort of thing never happens in the UK. [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal ]oh, hang on..[/url]
By 16 January 2013 four subsidiaries of ABP had been accused of supplying adulterated meat. They were Silvercrest in County Monaghan, Dalepak in North Yorkshire, Freshlink in Glasgow, ABP Nenagh in County Tipperary, Ireland and Dairy Crest, Rossington.
as for corrupt civil servants, see any issue of private eye, ever.
EU vested interests in farming to the fore mixed with that epically proportioned EU gravy train.
fair play. we could ask James Dyson about that too, though i understand he's rather keen on keeping subsidy payments going post-brexit. 🙄
What exactly are we fixing here?
I'm being asked to pay a price what will I get in return?
And these uk chocolate exporters get their chocolate from where?
What country can they magically buy chocolate from cheaper than last year?
Why? because that is what is in EVERYONEs interests.
But it's not. In fact, almost the opposite.
Tbc, a practical solution is in everyone's interests (not Brexshit itself!!)
London School of Economics research shows even Remain voters favour a "hard" Brexit. The Lib Dems / SNP / Plyd "soft" Brexit positions are only supported by 60% of their voters
https://order-order.com/2017/08/11/remoaners-lose-as-voters-strongly-back-hard-brexit/
The fields will be full of cocoa, farmers will be rolling in it, chocolate exporters will employ millions...
Oh hang on...
If someone had said before the referendum, that 13 months later and 5 months post article 50, the govt would still be internally debating what sort of vague outline of a transitional plan they wished to ask the EU27 for, they'd have been laughed at.
It's not a laughing matter any more.
What exactly are we fixing here?
I'm being asked to pay a price what will I get in return?
And these uk chocolate exporters get their chocolate from where?
What country can they magically buy chocolate from cheaper than last year?
One that we sign a free or reduced tariff trade deal with, you can have a simple addendum to WTO with specific countries. As per the coffee example the EU applies penal tariffs to roasted coffee beans but not to raw beans so that the value added prodiction is focused in the EU (Germany in particular) at the expense of economic development of poorer countries
Jamba how do I get one of these trade deals?
I'm just sorting out our credit card terminal supplier and then I'll get right on it.
London School of Economics research shows even Remain voters favour a "hard" Brexit. The Lib Dems / SNP / Plyd "soft" Brexit positions are only supported by 60% of their voters
[url= https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.sd7Pwv4rm#.xvka6PJb5 ]Not exactly Jamba...........[/url] A more in-depth analysis. As ever the real answer is somewhat more nuanced than your choice sound bite would suggest and interpretation of the answers has to be done in context of the the study methods and the actual questions asked.
A key point is that they were asked in the context of "assuming that we are definitely leaving the EU how should we do it" and whether they thought that their preferred outcome reflected the outcome of the referendum. These 2 points are key and the outcomes of the study are meaningless without looking at them with this in mind.
"In contrast, Remainers are more divided, with the majority favouring a ‘soft Brexit’ but others favouring aspects of a ‘hard Brexit’. Overall, this means that there is on aggregate higher levels of support for outcomes that resemble the ‘hard Brexit’ position put forward by the government."
Lazy jambas
Rather than being asked simply whether they support EU membership or not, respondents were instead grilled over a series of conditions imposed on Britain as a result of being in the bloc.
its therefore impossible to conclude[ as the question was never even posed]
research shows even Remain voters favour a "hard" Brexit.
The conclusion you reach is complete rubbish, utterly unfounded and simply untrue as it was NEVER EVEN ASKED.
What do you expect from a website drafted by Lord Haw-Haw, Jamba?
Order-order - a propaganda rag run by an Irishman, based in a place where you can buy citizenship.
Hmmm. Not a bunch I'd regard as impartial experts on Brexit (or anything else really).
Gutter journalism.
yes it was odd they quoted the report saying it was a forced choice and then emboldened the claim it proved that leavers supported Brexit
It was pretty poor- is it generally like that ?
Polemic to the point of lies/errors?
IS it just a polemicist blog that does not care for facts or was this uncharacteristic of them - genuine q for anyone who reads it other than when linked on here.
exporters of UK chocolate are having a field day
Are they really? They must be in a special niche because the latest ONS figures show that the trade deficit actually widened in June despite the expected boost from the fall in Sterling.
It doesn't seem hopeful that'll improve any once the higher input costs of raw materials start being fully reflected.
DONT BRING FACTS INTO OPTIMISM
Yes - they are
Yes - it is a niche, but relevant to discussions ^
You are referring to the well known J-curve effect
Jamba - out of curiosity, were you posting from "order order" as a genuine source of information? Or were you just trolling the more fervent remainers on here?
It is pretty obvious that a remainer is not likely to want a hard Brexit, don't think you need to do any research to come to that conclusion. If there has to be a Brexit then a remainer will want the softest Brexit possible which would be as close to not leaving as possible.
Yes but perversely to get as soft a Brexshit as possible you have to convince nos amis that you would take a hard one. The EU don't negotiate, they bully. So you have to stand up to them. - like the bully/bullies on [s]here[/s] the Internet. If they believe that we won't walk away, they will make it hard for us. If they think we won't blink, then they will be prepared to compromise. Negotiating 101
So I want a soft Brexshit with a long transition, hence very happy for the nutters to go on "pretending" that we might just walk away with a hard on
THM - I think the problem is you have more faith in the nutters 'pretending'. I think the silly bastards will happily walk away...
What was your last ban for again?like the bully/bullies on here the Internet.
you seem to keep going on and on about these sort of folk on the internet for some reason yet you seem to have a beam in thine own eye.
You really are in a weak position to lecture us on how to behave on the internet [ as I am to be fair] but not had a ban for a couple of years iirc as I try to be a wee bit nicer these days. Perhaps you could do the same rather than lecture others ?
they will make it hard fir us whatever and they always were as it has to be worse out the club than in it.If they believe that we won't walk away, they will make it hard for us
I am not sure you really do need to convince them we will blow ourselve sup instead of compromising as a negotiation tactic when such an outcome is much much worse for us than them from nuclear treaties to access to the skies its a threat we cannot really deliver on it- see also North korea and Trumps latest I wont compromise spat for how successful that sort of approach is when both employ it. It leads to nowhere but ludicrous rhetoric.
Quite possibly AD quite possibly
They're not pretending.
Excellent
They odds get better then
That's a relief
THM - I think you interpreted my earlier comment about the Brexies damaging my children's future as a financial comment. It wasn't.
While it is undoubtedly true that on balance the nation will be worse of financially and the only real question is how much and how long, it is the societal damage that the nastiness the Brexies embraced both during the campaign and afterwards that worries me most.
This country is a worse place because of them.
That is the slight note of sadness for my children I was talking about.
I agree, the economic argument isn't really the most important for me. I mean, it's clear that economically it's going to be bad, but that doesn't really matter to me personally, I'll be ok and I can understand the argument that it could theoretically be worth paying a bit economically for other less tangible benefits. I resent much more that the country will be socially, culturally, scientifically and politically ****ed up too.
IGM. i know what you mean. Pre vote it was mainly Brexshiteers that spouted BS. Now it's the remoaners who are trumping them with past vote nonsense. Our poor kids much wonder is there anyone left capable of talking sense. What has happened to our society? I had hoped that after the Scottish referendum, we might have seen the end of this.....and that was a very low bar to beat
Never thought our side would outdo the Brexshiteers at ludicrously wild exaggeration and being so nasty and intolerant but reckon they are actually winning that contest now by a country mile
Never thought our side would outdo the Brexshiteers at ludicrously wild exaggeration and being so nasty and intolerant but reckon they are actually winning that contest now by a country mile
Awww come on.
Mind you it worked for the other side, perhaps it's the path to victory! 😉
(Personally, I never used the term Brexshiteers).
Awww cute concern trolling.
its great irony to lament the rudeness of "our side" and then call them Brexshiteers 😆
I hope its sublime trolling satire rather than abject stupidity
still looking good i guess.
THM - to be fair though, the remainers even now have refrained from killing people they disagree with. Unlike say, ISIS or the Brexies.
Yes but perversely to get as soft a Brexshit as possible you have to convince nos amis that you would take a hard one. The EU don't negotiate, they bully. So you have to stand up to them
Maybe the negotiators do yes, but the remainers who are not involved in negotiations are not going to be looking at it from that angle, i.e. the man in the street remainer such as myself.
its great irony to lament the rudeness of "our side" and then call them Brexshiteers
It's a massive irony to lament the rudeness of one side but lace almost every post with at least one veiled insult. He has a commitment to rudeness rarely seen even here.
igm - Member
THM - to be fair though, the remainers even now have refrained from killing people they disagree with. Unlike say, ISIS or the Brexies.
Don't do it, IGM, don't do it. Think of the children - YOUR children.
They deserve to be spared exposure to wild hyperbole. Brexies now running around killing people. Is that a 😯 or an ironic 😀
For the snowflakes, some clarity. We agree that Brexshit on balance is crap. Hence its Brexshit. Someone who supports the crap idea is therefore a Brexshiteer. They may be perfectly nice, indeed sensible but they are still "eers" of a crap concept. THat is not being rude, it's simple making an accurate observation. They are supporters of an idea that is sh1t.Much more accurate that the familiar terms such a swivel eyed loons etc. on which comment is rarely, if ever, passed. Anyone mention a plank?
Some of my best friends 😉 (and forumites, family members, tennis partner *) are Brexshiteers. None of them run around killing people and I am happy to have a beer with all of them too.
* that reminds me, where did I put my racket....have a lovely morning
Interesting study by the LSE and Oxford University.
It seems there is a middle ground amongst leavers and remainers. I don't know what the term is for something in between hard and soft but it seems that's what type of brexit the public want.
As the Bard of Barking once said, 'sweet moderation, heart of this nation'