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Thatcher's decision to privatise them all in the first place was an ideological one too
One that IMO has got us into this mess.
Given the pigs ear that these people are making of running their own parties, it beggars belief that anyone would want them controlling more of our economic resources. And people say that Brexshit is self harm 😯
(They screwed up enough in the past, what does Einstein say about learning the lessons of history)
Given the pigs ear that these people are making of running their own parties, it beggars belief that anyone would want them controlling more of our economic resources. And people say that Brexshit is self harm
Given how private companies screwed up and caused the banking crash, who would ever want them running anything.
People are generally idiots.
Covenienetly ignoring the role of Central Banks (covering their previous mistakes) and regulators in the process. But I suppose Gordie did single handedly save the world, God bless him, so let's not be too harsh...
Care to tell us which privatised industry is an example to all? As said the European model looks much better to base future nationalised resources on.
European model???
Start by answering the first part thm which privatised industry is awesome.
2nd part like the German rail companies etc who managed to be good and profitable enough to bid for UK franchises
whattiler has it - this is the core of the left wing argument against the EU - it would act as a brake on any socialist government.
Then you also have the right wing little englanders and racists like Hoey who are in the wrong party
fortunately most lefties can see ( as Corbyn has agreed) that the EU also acts as a brake on the right wing by ensuring a basic set of workers rights. Removing these rights is the main aim of the right wing leavers
tjagain, you're right, those on the left who voted to leave the EU were basically taking a gamble on leaving the EU and in the future getting a socialist government, win/win.
If they didn't get a socialist government and they are faced with beingoput of the EU with a right wing government intent on deregulating even more then the struggle carries on. Most of the old school left (certainly the ones I know), it's all about the struggle, it's what they live for.
Covenienetly ignoring the role of Central Banks (covering their previous mistakes) and regulators in the process. But I suppose Gordie did single handedly save the world, God bless him, so let's not be too harsh...
Who we keep on being told are the problem , too much red tape. Too much regulation, etc etc.
True
Central banks have even taken to stealing of us these days in order to keep the bubble going - and then have the temerity to wonder why people are still gorging on expensive consumer credit
More tears ahead
I am still awaiting Jamba and THMs presdictions of the collapse of the euro and both Greece being kicked out and Germany leaving the euro that they both so confidently made years ago coming true
You read our posts now! Remarkable...and without abuse. Ok that's not true....
The euro has already collapsed - unless your German. Plus you may need to check what I actually said. Not that that matters of course...
It says a lot about folk IF they are happy to subject large sections of vulnerable people to unemployment, wage deflation, loss of savings, substantial declines in living standards etc. How selfish is that?? For what reason? To sustain an unsustainable and flawed project.
With [s]friends[/s] comrades like that, who needs enemies??
As THM appears to be answering me and as I addressed him I thought I would unblock to see. Waste of time that was
I don't block Jamba - he is polite and does not bait folk. So no answer from THM apart from this:
The euro has already collapsed
Funny - I can still get Euros. NO one has left it. Its not collapsed
Indeed, waste of time facing up to reality. Ignore the damage to the poor young and elderly of Euroland. That's what the euro elite do in spades, so you are in good company there. Pity those who suffer though, ingnord by those who prefer an "I'm alright jjack"* attitude
* hope I didn't misspell that.
Of course you can still get a euro, and people are still suffering thanks to the political elite who don't care.
I love it when the UK is considered a disaster area when unemployment is at/near lows and yet Euroland still has appaling levels of unemployment and yet is a success. That is a very interesting derivation of logic....
Always knew you were a brexiteer THM
I love it when the UK is considered a disaster area when unemployment is at/near lows and yet Euroland still has appaling levels of unemployment
Must be something in the air Gordi?
I have always been pro Europe but anti the Euro - for obvious and good reason
Also the UK has a huge amount of hidden unemployment that does not exist in euroland. Study somewhre on this thread IIRC.
But still. the euro has collapsed apparently. somewhere in an alternate reality
😀
Lest check what doesn't exist and how big it is
I wonder what Eurostat says
In 2016 there were 9.481 million underemployed part-time workers in the EU-28. In addition to this, 8.782 million persons were available to work, but did not look for a job, and another 2.270 million persons were looking for jobs, without being able to start working in one within a short time period. These two last groups are normally jointly referred to as the potential additional labour force. [b]In total this means that in 2016 in the EU-28, 20.533 million persons had some resemblance to being unemployed, without fulfilling all the ILO criteria for being so. This is almost the same amount of persons who were unemployed according to the ILO criteria (20.908 million).[/b]
Here's an article that may be of interest to all the progressive remainers whose glasses are half empty. Written by an economics professor who backed remain.
I particularly liked this passage
For the stalwarts of the status quo, the events following 23 June have brought a catastrophe of historic proportions. No obvious way presents itself to reconstruct the antediluvian neoliberal order that served them so well
And this
I deeply regret leaving the European Union, but must accept that the probability is great that the June 2016 referendum will in due course result in a UK government committed to social democracy, not neoliberalism.
The painful truth is that the vast majority of British households will be better off out of the European Union with a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn than in the European Union under the yoke of a Conservative government led by anyone. Had the referendum I supported passed even by the narrowest majority, David Cameron would still reside in 10 Downing Street with no election until 2020. The right wing of the Labour party would still pose a constant threat to the progressive leader. At the very least we should temper our Brexit regret.
It has been very long time since the Law of Unintended Consequences rewarded us at all, much less so spectacularly.
Interesting analysis in the Gruniad about how its impossible for the UK to do all the trade deals it needs in the timespan available. We simply do not have the people with the expertise and the timescales are absurd.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/04/britain-leave-single-market-trade-deal
More banks moving out of the UK
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/04/rbs-plans-move-to-amsterdam-for-post-brexit-hub
Car manufacturers in despair https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/04/uk-car-industry-facing-an-utterly-demoralising-brexit
NO control of UK fishing waters
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/03/eu-fishing-boats-can-still-operate-in-uk-waters-after-brexit-says-gove
Irish border makes hard brexit impossible and so on.
every day how bad a clusterfart it is gets more and more obvious.
A reduction in the banking sector may not be a bad thing according to this (albeit pre referendum) Guardian article
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/01/east-coast-rail-line-returns-to-private-hands ]cos public sector cannot provide an effective service[/url]
private sector is not a panacea. properly motivated public sector can provide quality services, at a profit, and pay back in to the coffers, reducing overall tax burden.
privatising profit and publicising debt is not the answer. ffs.
C'mon people there is no argument for leaving it's guess work at best, the argument for staying is (primarily) based on existing fact and evidence.
But and it's a big but... dogma is more attractive than facts and evidence. Jamaba, ninfan and to some extent a more reasoned THM are simply plying the dogma, with all due respect gentlemen (and I really do mean with respect) none of you or Boris or David or Theresa or Liam have a "scooby do" about post Brexit and there in lies the problem? It's all bollocks and guess work which rarley leads to success.
The usual suspects will now do whatever it takes to to try and make this work - bleachy chicken, steroid beef, Danish fishing etc
Its worse than that oldmanmtb - we know all the things that will go wrong and are happening and the huge difficulties but leavers ignore all that for ideology and illusion
teamhurtmore - Member
You read our posts now! Remarkable...and without abuse. Ok that's not true....
And yet thm still can't tell me which privatised industry we should hold up as an example to others. What a surprise.
Meanwhile we have 19 months to get it all done and Theresa May has headed off for a 3 week walk (there'll be another next year too no doubt).
With the amount of work necessary (see TJ's articles above) no one in the cabinet should be having holiday until the job is done.
Old man - not sure why your are placing me in the same camp as Jamabas and Ninfan given that I was a remainer, who argued agaist their false points and noted the factual vacuum that lie behind their and the Brexshiteers' case. BTW what has happend to Ninfan, has he been bullied, hounded, censored, banned into silence?
I do accept that I was on their side - and the side of commons sense and logic - when it comes to the Euro. How anyone would willing accept the misery that this has caused our fellow Europeans is beyond me.
But back to the point, unlike remoaners I am prepared to accept the decision of the democratic process and deal with what IS in front of us not what I WISH was in front of us. Two totally different things. There is nothing to be gained from rehashing the lost arguments or trying to bully people into submission by constantly posting factually incorrect arguments and wildly exaggerated claims - see above for evidence.of this.
So where I dio agree with Jamabs and Ninfan (again) is in debunking the BS that remoaners are using to make a tough job even tougher, although I don't always agree with the points hat they make to do this.
Posting endless articles from rivals papers be it the guardian on one side or the Brexshit Bugle on the other adds nothing to the debate. We know their views and all we see is events distorted through their own particular magnifying lenses. Neither are particularly accurate.
So there is no dogma on my aside. Indeed I am one of the few who is flexible enough to argue for one choice but then to accept the result of others who rejected it.and then get on with dealing with the consequences. That is what we should all be doing not hiding behind entrenched ideology and illusion in an attempt to bully those who won the debate.
Mike, the reason for not answering directly is that the question is far too simplistic. I cannot imagine anyone arguing that they would want to return to the lack of choice, poor service, poor efficiency levels of the pre-privatised world. I am old enough to remember those days and they were grim. But each privatisation needs to be assessed on its own merits since there will always be positive and negatives. Even in the one that was only partial and badly executed, there has been a significant increase in the ability to deliver and serve large number include myself on a daily basis. It's much, much better than it was. I accept that if I lived 30 miles east, however, I may have a different view.
Any way looking forward to some more remoaning exagerations over the next few days and months....always fun to read 😉
THM, it's clear that you are delighted by brexit so long as you can blame it on someone else. Which is pretty cowardly IMO.
Well you are entitled to your opinion however wide of the mark/grossly exagerated it may be - unlike (it seems) Ninfan.
Meanwhile I have just hired an Italian, a Norwegian and a ****stani all to work in London. That's called getting on with things....
Any way looking forward to some more remoaning exagerations over the next few days and months....always fun to read
No exaggerations from THM, ever, obviously.
Indeed I am one of the few who is flexible enough to argue for one choice but then to accept the result of others who rejected it.
Sounds like May.
In fact, you always seem to back the position of whoever is the current Tory leader.
I think I might be repeating that observation, apologies if I am.
On the contrary, read ^
If there is anyone I am backing, it is the combination of Starmer and Hammnond - that's the beauty of not be constrained by party dogma, you can say it as it is rather than as instructed by a party hierarchy.
Don't feed the troll
Quality 😀
Ie, don't engage with anyone who can pick apart your arguments (sic) with ease and on the basis of facts (remember them). Again see above...start with European unemployment falsehoods as an easy starter for ten!!
I think he's just trying to help me avoid contact with a condecending, arrogant hypocrite… not sure his use of the word "troll" is fair… not a term I would use here and now.
I'm not wise enough to take such advice though.
If there is anyone I am backing, it is the combination of Starmer and Hammnond
What have we heard from those two that contradicts May's position of trying to make the best of a bad decision?
"The best Brexit possible"
That's what we have to do, as grown up as it sounds. 😉
The best Brexit possible - and it is entirely possible - is no Brexit at all.
"Have" to do? So you say… but others disagree. We've had our "we want something other than EU membership" vote… next comes the… "do you want this specific actual alternative to EU membership" vote. No idea what form that'll take, but if it doesn't happen then the post exit years will be politically very damaging indeed.
Fingers crossed DD
They may well be, that's true. But that is what we have to deal with.
We "want" a bespoke deal not one of the existing alternatives for ensuring continued access - that makes it harder still. Even more important not to cloud the whole debate with remooaner or Brexshiteer BS. Stick to the facts. They are all there...
Remember even the doomsday scenarios were not that bad - hence the need for Osbourne and others ^ to deliberately misquote and exaggerate them.. Remember when some were arguing that the cumulative effect over many years was actually the effect over one. You can make it up! Consistently...
Anyway a bientot, weather's lovely but might not last
"Bespoke deal" … more empty words. No more meaningful than "Brexit means Brexit."
Any deal will be a bespoke deal, as it will be between the UK and the EU… a one off… nothing prexisting to use here.
There is no deal possible unless May and her cronies forget their "red lines" which they seem to be doing on the quiet. Nothing we can get will be anywhere near as good a deal as we have now and nothing will undo the damage that it is doing to the country.
^ + 1 tj
Alice is a remainer, the queen is a leaver.
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
"You couldn't have it if you did want it," the Queen said. "The rule is jam tomorrow and jam yesterday but never jam to-day."
"It must come sometimes to "jam to-day,""Alice objected.
"No it can't," said the Queen. "It's jam every other day; to-day isn't any other day, you know."
"I don't understand you," said Alice. "It's dreadfully confusing."
The painful truth is that the vast majority of British households will be better off out of the European Union with a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn than in the European Union under the yoke of a Conservative government led by anyone.
Blimey. Its as fanciful as the hard brexiters dreams.
Whenever THM posts about "accepting the decision" or "getting on with it", All I see is weakness.
How anyone would willing accept the misery that this has caused our fellow Europeans is beyond me.
I think many of us Europeans who can remember the difficulties caused byt volatile exchange rates and vulnerable currencies are more than happy to have Euros in our pockets rather than Francs or whatever.
The main losers are currency traders - do you do any of that, THM?
"Bespoke deal"
It's bound to be isn't it? Considering no-one has done such a stupid thing before.
The painful truth is that the vast majority of British households will be better off out of the European Union with a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn than in the European Union under the yoke of a Conservative government
Possibly. But we have not been offered that binary choice, as far as I'm aware.
Well we were offered the choice albeit in two stages, the referendum and the General Election. As the article says the referendum result led to the events of the general election and we wouldn't have had one if it wasn't for the result in the referendum.
Sometimes if you want something to happen you need to stick your neck out or just accept the status quo.
I'll take a Conservative government, in the EU, over what Corbyn can do outside the EU, any day. And I voted Labour. Their manifesto costings pretended the loss of government revenue due to Brexit was peanuts. Deluded or deceitful… you choose.
That piece smacks of the "smash the system to bring on the new red dawn" side of left wing politics that should stay on the pages of the Socialist Worker.
Nail, head, hammer there Kelvin!
Really? To quote someone else in a previous post, with comrades like you....
I thought it was quite measured. I guess you wouldn't like this one from before the referendum then.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/enrico-tortolano/eu-and-other-neoliberal-nightmares
I'm not sure if Prof Weeks hasn't noticed, but we still have a Tory government
Labour menifesto was all carefully costed and its yearly cost was less than the bung to the DUP in total.
For all the abuse that Jambas gets and yet we have more posts like this
Labour menifesto was all carefully costed
Is there not a point at which posting things that are patently untrue becomes embarrassing? not even a tad? Do you and others actually believe this stuff, do you not bother to check if its true or do you simply not care if it's untrue. Is it the Jefferey Archer syndrome? Now wonder the SNP get away with their shenanigans......
Kelvin both the comments you objected to earlier are true. We are seeking a bespoke deal rather than choosing to adopt any of the four pre-existing ways of engaging with the EU. And yes, whether we like it or not, Brexisit does mean Brexshit. It's just the form that is uncertain along with the timetable.
Time to get with the game.
Likewise, the form of a "bespoke deal" is as nebulous as you like… no deal, remain, bespoke deal… the only three options… all possible deals on leaving are "bespoke deals". All the other countries with EEA involvement have their own deals, as do all countries with strong customs and trade arrangements. All bespoke deals. The thing is … "bespoke deal" just means "a deal" … it says nothing of the form, content, or compromises involved.
bespoke deal
Brexit means Brexit
red white and blue Brexit
...
I should probably add… we have a bespoke deal now.
But, we have not sought the EEA option - a least not from the outset. We have rejected the off-the-shelf options, hence the antonym is........a [_______] one
So,if we do not adopt an exitsting off the shelf deal, what type of deal will we have?
X post - we do, a bloody good one, and one that wont be bettered
Shame that a majority of folk didn't vote to keep it, isn't it?
what type of deal will we have?
An expensive one
[img] 
[/img]
Probably lies as it's in the torygraph
But enjoyable that it will have have plenty of brexies frothing over their kippers tomorrow morning
over their kippers
Bravo 😉
Pun-tastic there Kimbers - like it.
what type of deal will we have?
Any deal we get will be a bespoke deal… a bespoke deal is a bespoke deal… repeating the term ad nauseum doesn't give it more morning.
Morning, meaning… whatever.
morning means breakfast!
£36Bn? It's David Cameron's bequest to the nation.
morning means breakfast!
> small round of applause <
£36Bn?
The current PM has been VERY careful not to draw any redlines, or back herself into any corners, when it comes to an exit bill, or continuing payments to the EU. Unlike some ministers who stood in front of the red bus. Her most pragmatic move.
so we offer as a starting point 36 billion. What will our actual payment be? Its clear the EU negotiators are getting totally fed up with the lack of progress. NO deal gets more likely day by day and how couldany responsible ( Ha! ) politician think this acceptable.
Second referendum please
The EU, as always are pretending to negotiate but putting your in a neck lock first instead - read Varoufakis for how this is done in detail.
We know the opening gambits and we know where the deal is likely to be struck. No need to get hung up on the noise. The final number is simple being flagged to test public opinion. Predicted 30-40 on here ages ago.
The more important question is what is committed by both sides once this hurdle is crossed, It's a negotiation after all...
But even the 36Bn is only offered as part of a trade deal, which only provokes the obvious question (on the side of the EU negotiators)...what will the UK pay for brexit without any trade deal?
However 2nd ref (at this point) is a bonkers idea. Once we have a specific deal a yes/no vote on that would be reasonable. What we will actually get is months of acrimonious politicking and no real progress, followed with a governmental implosion and shame-faced retraction of A50, but only after huge damage has been done.
Except there's a clock ticking on A50; to have a second referendum before that expires the government would need to do something fairly soon.
from other thread
sorry THM its was 2025 not 2050 b4 we break even from Brexit 😳
but that study also predicted that growth wouldnt slow & real wages wouldnt start falling until after brexit, which is making it seem overly optimistic already
*Surprised no-one has commented on Tusk's comments the other day. Strong words.
[url= https://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-politics-tusk-idUSKBN1AJ2TO ]ExitPol?[/url]
* 😆
sbob - Member
*Surprised no-one has commented on Tusk's comments the other day. Strong words.
ExitPol?*
is this another thing where you brexies predict that [s]austria[/s] [s]holland[/s] [s]france[/s] poland are about to leave the EU and make it collapse ?
😆
still Plexit? wouyld please all the little Englanders as then all those pesky Poles would have to leave the UK, regardless?
Also see that EU looks like its witholding 4bn of pre-accession funding from Turkey
The piece above about the eu considering kicking poland out is the start of thr maneuvering/softening people up to cover the future loss of membership fees from the uk IMO.
The piece above about the eu considering kicking poland out is the start of thr maneuvering/softening people up to cover the future loss of membership fees from the uk IMO.
The exit bill will almost cover their next funding round entirely!