[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Well we dont really need to do too much more talking, we know where the EUs lie

First, unity. Unity is the strength of the European Union. President Juncker and I are determined to preserve the unity and the interests of EU 27. This determination is shared by all governments.

Second, being in the European Union comes with rights and benefits. Third countries can never have the same rights and benefits since they are not subject to the same obligations.

Third, negotiations will not start before notification.

Fourth, the single market and its full freedoms, its four freedoms, are indivisible. Cherry picking is not an option.

so, lets get on with it

so, lets get on with it

even Cake & Eat it Johnson is starting to wise up

He reckons negotiations will be wrapped up in <18mths, which means theres not much to negotiate!

I think all thats open to question is how much of an international laughing stock we make ourselves before we have to accept the inevitable.

Everyone with anything between their ears knows that there is no cherrypicking to be done. Its all or nothing. When they say that thats the only deal on the table, they really aren't joking!

*awaits Jammers coming along with his fantasy wishlist*

Mr Barnier, making his first public speech on the issue, was appointed to the post of chief Brexit negotiator on 1 October this year by European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, who said he "wanted an experienced politician for this difficult job".

The chief negotiator said he had spent time speaking to European member governments and said the Brexit negotiations had been informed by four main principles.

These included the "determination for unity" and a pledge to not start negotiations before being officially notified by the UK of its desire to leave, via the triggering of Article 50.

He also said: "Being a member of EU comes with rights and benefits. Third countries (non members as the UK will be after Brexit) can never have the same rights and benefits since they are not subject to the same obligations.

"The single market and its four freedoms (which includes freedom of movement) are indivisible. Cherry picking is not an option."

I know she is a lady but is it OK to call Enola a ****?

I think all that's open to question is how much of an international laughing stock we make ourselves before we have to accept the inevitable.

We can't even send a gunboat anymore to intimidate Johnny foreigner (fleet manoeuvres recently)

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Everyone with anything between their ears knows that there is no cherrypicking to be done. Its all or nothing. When they say that thats the only deal on the table, they really aren't joking!

Respectfully, I disagree. Both sides are merely outlining their starting positions. I would suggest that everyone who has studied EU history knows full well that there will be compromise of sorts. Which is one reason why this current fannying around is not helpful

The only things to be settled are how much do we owe the EU - estimates are around 60 billion and how we pay this and what euro institutions like europol we are going to remain in. There is no deal possible on trade as its clear to get tariff free access to the single market we need to accept freedom of movement.

We might see some nasty bargaining over the EU citizens in the UK and the UK citizens in the EU

Of course UK can cherry pick.

EU bureaucrats can say whatever they like.

What can they do? Embargo UK? Punish the individual EU states that want to deal with UK?

I double dare them.

Well the French do have nuclear weapons

binners - Member
Well the French do have nuclear weapons

Of course UK can cherry pick.

What are you on about?

We will be a third country as regards the EU soon, so any agreement that gives us access beyond that of any other third country that doesn't have an agreement needs, er... agreement! The days when we could wave our veto and contributions around and make the EU do what we want are coming to an end. Soon. Might be wise to belatedly seek more common ground with countries that have the audacity to not have English as a their first language, and be sited conveniently close by. Agreement is needed…

Of course UK can cherry pick.

I think he means that people from the UK will literally have to cherry pick, and other fruit picking, due to lack of immigrants.

kelvin - Member
What are you on about?

We will be a third country as regards the EU soon, so any agreement that gives us access beyond that of any other third country that doesn't have an agreement needs, er... agreement! The days when we could wave our veto and contributions around and make the EU do what we want are coming to an end. Soon. Might be wise to belatedly seek more common ground with countries that have the audacity to not have English as a their first language, and be sited conveniently close by. Agreement is needed…

It's negotiation innit.

EU bureaucrats can set whatever rules they want. We bend it.

We can set whatever rules we want. They bend it.

We negotiate.

Or we can play the rules bending game. 😆

What can they do? Embargo? I double dare them.

HoratioHufnagel - Member
I think he means that people from the UK will literally have to cherry pick, and other fruit picking, due to lack of immigrants.

Of course UK can cherry pick...What can they do?

Ah, so we're going to [i]force[/i] EU countries to trade freely with us?

Maybe send round Danny Dyer and Ross Kemp to sort them out?

[i]"We ain't payin no import tax. Y'get me bruv?"[/i]

TJ any "defined benefit" type pension is a ponzi scheme, as soon as payments in stop it fails also the assumptions for "fully funded" are a best heroic or at worst a fantasy. There is simply no way of knowing the future inc how ling people will live

EU exit liabilities, a matter for discussion varying between zero and the ludicrous numbers from campaigners. Things like pensions for EU bureaucrats are not our liability in my view but I can see us paying those as and when they fall due, €6bn over 30yrs I believe (even that seems a very high figure). As for loans etc that's a fantasy. None. Research programmes, we have already said we will fund/match grants to our Universities, broader programmes are not our concern once we are gone.

Of course there is "Cherry picking" - Canada didn't sign up for THE single market, together with the EU they oucked the areas on which they wanted co-operations.

Just caught up with last nights Newsnight, Evan Davies was absolutely priceless

OK, Good luck with that

He said to the incredibly dull and faceless EU bureaucrat who was claiming suport for the EU has been going up in Europe since the Brexit vote

Red, White and Blue Brexit. Genius as no one is poking fun at Brexit is Brexit anymore 🙂

I jumped the gun a bit declaring the Supreme Court hearing boring. It got pretty interesting.

Dont Pannick brexiteers 🙂

GrahamS - Member
Ah, so we're going to force EU countries to trade freely with us?

Force? No force needed. It's all about money.

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other.

Sort the EU bureaucrats ... what can they do? Embargo the individual nations?

I double dare them punish the individual nations who want to trade with the UK. 😆

centralscrutinizer - Member
I jumped the gun a bit declaring the Supreme Court hearing boring. It got pretty interesting.

Dont Pannick brexiteers

The fate is sealed I am afraid for the remainders.

I double dare the Supreme Court to reject the will of the people.

I double dare the Supreme Court to interfere with the Govt.

I double dare the tail wagging the dog.

Jamba - stop talking nonsense. You can keep calling it a ponzi scheme but it isn't. Go read a dictionary

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other.

Right so if, as you seem to be saying chewkw, individual EU countries CAN make actually trade agreements with whomever they like without being punished then... umm.. why are we leaving?

I mean, [i]not[/i] being free to make trade agreements was one of the best arguments I heard for leaving. And I suspect, a major factor in a pretty decent number of leave votes.

Gisela nails it here

Research programmes, we have already said we will fund/match grants to our Universities

As far as I am aware UK Govt will only do this for successful funding bids up until we leave the EU.

Nothing has been said on how this loss of unconstrained fundamental research funding will be replaced post-Brexit. There has been some muttering about "research to drive business" which isn't what the EU money funds, and the double accountancy that is the Global Challenges Research Fund siphoning money away from fundamental research.

There has been no statement on how the UK will maintain its position as a world leader in fundamental research and every time the question is asked there is deafening silence. This probably explains why many researchers at my institute are looking to leave the UK (quite a few have already got offers elsewhere) and why the ones who are remaining are very, very concerned for the future.

So please, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, stop fibbing or talking about things you obviously know nothing about.

I double dare the Supreme Court to interfere with the Govt.

The job of the Supreme Court is to interpret and rule on the law.
If the government is doing something legally dubious then it is absolutely the duty of the Supreme Court to "interfere" with that.

And NHS workers can keep denying it and misunderstanding how their pensions work - which is worse?

NHS workers (currently) have a (potentially vulnerable) unfunded occupational scheme whose only present saving grace is the fact that it is backed-stopped by the Exchequer, Beyond that it has the characteristics of a ponzi scheme. Thinking it is safe is folly.

Gisela nails it here

Nails what exactly? A UK coffin?

I realise that there isn't any point in trying to explain the difference between accepting the outcome (yes/no) and defining how it will happen (never stated or voted upon), but really, please try and understand. Maybe once you do the country can get around and unite to try and make something of this shitshower you have landed us in rather than your constant triumphalist cry that a minority of hardliners can claim that 37% of the country can dictate what happens for all of us.

You wanted democracy and sovereignty but you get it for the whole country not just the bits and people you want.

 

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other

Negotiate is the key word there. We don't get to ignore the EU and pick what we want, we have to negotiate.

We will either be seeking an agreement with the EU for when we leave, or, far more likely, if the long term EU countries have any sense, we will leave with no agreement, and then be seeking to get one sorted ASAP from the position of a n other third country. But agreement is what we will indeed be after… not us cherry picking what we want.

Related to all this, you all saw Trump's latest Twitter talk of a 35% import tax on goods made abroad by USA companies? And big tax breaks for those "bringing jobs back". And ramping up the race to the bottom as regards Corp tax?

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other.

GrahamS - Member
Right so if, as you seem to be saying chewkw, individual EU countries CAN make actually trade agreements with whomever they like without being punished then... umm.. why are we leaving?

The "paper works". The irony is that there are so much paper works to deal with it's slowing UK exit. See the EU bureaucratic entanglement ... 😆

In the meantime do let the PM warm up her chair first before we move into full swing.

Nobody in this world can magically turn things around with the bureaucratic entanglement. Unless you are Stalin or Mao in that case it will be over night change.

I mean, not being free to make those trade agreements was one of the best arguments I heard for leaving. And I suspect that a major factor in a pretty decent number of leave votes.

Someone please invent a new hobby of smashing the EU bureaucratic system please. 😛

GrahamS - Member

I double dare the Supreme Court to interfere with the Govt.

The job of the Supreme Court is to interpret and rule on the law.
If the government is doing something legally dubious then it is absolutely the duty of the Supreme Court to "interfere" with that.

The elephant is already inside the room does the law see that?

Interpret at will ... 😆

UK has been sucked into the concept of EU bureaucratic system for so long some people are no longer able to think for themselves. They become too scared even to stand on their own feet without the guidance from the EU bureaucratic system.

😯

teamhurtmore - Member
UK has been sucked into the concept of EU bureaucratic system for so long some people are no longer able to think for themselves. They become too scared even to stand on their own feet without the guidance from the EU bureaucratic system.

😯

I know it is a bit dramatic for a dull day I must admit. 😆

We could be giving away our huge "home market" just as other big markets put up barriers to us.

Good to see that the Scottish advocate-general gave the devolution issue its appropriate consideration

I suppose a straight answer was too much to expect. I'll try again..

If individual EU countries [i]are[/i] in fact free to negotiate their own trade deals then why was "trade freedom" a key point in the Vote Leave campaign??

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[Source: [url= http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html ]Vote Leave[/url]]

Who buys Hugh's?

Ill have a dozen grants, a laurie and a couple of fearnley-whittingstalls please, grocer!

Boo Kelvin - editing spoil-sport!! 😉

Long live the UK beurocratic system!
And all the new beurocratic hurdles our companies and people will be made to jump through just to sell, live, or work across a swimmable stretch of water!

[edit: I have in no way made my point well here at all, I admit]
[but, harmonisation across EU doesn't necessarily mean a more beurocratic landscape]

The elephant is already inside the room does the law see that?

Ah yes, but the mouse has all the coconuts.

..Zombie maggots..

..Wibble.

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binners - Member
I think all thats open to question is how much of an international laughing stock we make ourselves

The amount of stick I have had to put up with recently hurts.

I think the low point was being called (albeit jovially) Brexit Boy.

The UK really was the butt of many a joke before the referendum.
"so we can sell our products freely"... "You can already, but besides, what do you produce?"
"protect our industry, innit"..."what industry?" laughed the Germans.

kelvin - Member
We could be giving away our huge "home market" just as other big markets put up barriers to us.

GrahamS - Member
If individual EU countries are in fact free to negotiate their own trade deals then why was "trade freedom" a key point in the Vote Leave campaign??

Nope, does not work that way because opportunities are for everyone.

I have tried rearranging these words, but still can't find any actual meaning in them.

Is it a TMay quote?

Very simple we ask them to break their own rules because it is all about money.

Right.

So if that was an option... why didn't we do it ourselves when we were part of the EU?

GrahamS - Member

The elephant is already inside the room does the law see that?

Ah yes, but the mouse has all the coconuts.

..Zombie maggots..

..Wibble.

Obvious is obvious innit coz you (remainders) just got your knickers twisted.

Yes, it's like the "programmed" ZMs.

At least it seems like our Prime Minister is getting down to the detail of the Brexit, it's going to be red, white and blue 🙄