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Exactly, not calling out the lies of the right wing press and serial and practiced bullshitters like Farage, Johnson, mogg etc are how we got into this mess.
Well perhaps warning people about misleading posts and a ban for repeatedly doing it might reduce the aggro. I got an instant ban for linking three of a poster's own threads to demonstrate his own attitudes were perhaps the source of his own worries. It was considered negative use of the forum. Maybe it was, I didn't contest the ban. But if linking someone's own posts is negative use of the forum I'm pretty sure repeatedly posting incorrect numbers and mistruths in an attempt to mislead is highly negative use of the forum.
Edit: in the real world politicians need to be more accountable. Bare faced lies leading to dismisal and a ban from positions in public life.
Indeed you can instantly fact check almost anything, yet we are constantly bombarded with lies and half truths,on here and in the real world
Eg today Daily Mail reporter asked May about Corbyn not condeming bullying of MPs, she agreed, despite corbs having put out numerous statements doing just that.
Um... we just got that like last week via the EU and yet with Brexit we're going to opt out of it? How's that work then?
No we didn't, neither did the EU, probably best if you study the detail of what was said.
Well perhaps warning people about misleading posts and a ban for repeatedly doing it might reduce the aggro.
It would be impossible, an awful lot of rubbish is posted, Jamba gets called out because he often has a minority view on here, he is no worse than many others.
I got an instant ban for linking three of a poster's own threads to demonstrate his own attitudes were perhaps the source of his own worries. It was considered negative use of the forum
I can't immediately see the detail for that - how long ago was it?
No we didn't, neither did the EU, probably best if you study the detail of what was said.
Possibly so, I was only half-paying attention. It's been a long week and I've not been well, that was my impression but I concede it could be wrong.
Jamba gets called out because he often has a minority view on here, he is no worse than many others.
It's the refusal to ever admit mistake, provide a source or stop when the figures/facts have been totally discredited that boils most people's piss. Then a swift return with everything I post is just my opinion despite it all being laid out as supposed facts.
#350MillionReasons
Jamba gets called out because he often has a minority view on here, he is no worse than many others.
Eh, he doesn't get called out because he has a "minority view," rather he gets called out for presenting falsehoods as fact. As far as I can see anyway, please correct me if I'm wrong.
It's the refusal to ever admit mistake
Again hardly uncommon.
to be fair it's up there with deliberate short/misquoting 😉
Eh, he doesn't get called out because he has a "minority view," rather he gets called out for presenting falsehoods as fact. As far as I can see anyway, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Like many others, including yourself, as I pointed out slightly earlier, as his view differs lots of people argue with what he says, and a few occasionally fact check. I imagine he doesn't have the time to go through 20 posts pointing individually - his posting style seems quite sensible from a time management perspective.
to be fair it's up there with deliberate short/misquoting
Nothing deliberate I could have quoted the whole post and said the same thing.
Mefty, do you do speeding fine defences too?
If you were told a figure was wrong and it was proved would you stop using it?
If for the it was pointed out over and over again that you were basically making stuff up would you think about maybe checking it first?
If you were told a figure was wrong and it was proved would you stop using it?
If you are talking about the £350 million figure, then Dominic Cummings will tell you that using a controversial figure is what won it, because the Remain side by arguing were fighting on Leave's strong ground.
Euro Clearing. Barclays chairmen pointed out that clearing is very much an economy of scale businesses. Trying to move euro clearing to Europe whilst it makes political sense will be unlikely to work economically as the other currencies / business volumes won't be there nor will the significant netting benefits (multiple currency trades with same counterparty).
Bollox.
Euro clearing could be done anywhere in the EU, as long as it's IN THE EU.
Why does have to stay to stay in the UK if it's politically expedient to relocate it??
Volumes have nothing to do with it - location, as they say, is key...
If you are talking about the £350 million figure, then Dominic Cummings will tell you that using a controversial figure is what won it, because the Remain side by arguing were fighting on Leave's strong ground.
You borrowing Ninfan's defence notes now? The figure being one that Cummings himself did admit was completely misleading and used only to keep the debate up there.
So does it make using that figure any more useful and should people be pulled up for using misleading information?
Jamby's at it again - remember, despite the platitudes and reasoning he does put forward, his world view is entirely corrupted by the fact that only rich people exist in that world view.
Everyone else is, well, superfluous.
His comments are littered with references to 'everyone', 'lots of people' etc - just remember he is only referring to people with enough dosh to be considered worthy of consideration.
+1.
The Moderators asked me to report more a while back
I'll take that with a pinch of salt given your track record & fair weather affiliation for facts & truthood!
Rather, it becomes self-policing - people call out 'fake news'.
How's that working out at national/internationel level? We're still leaving the EU; Trump is still POTUS.
Not long after the great hack, Cougar.
Newspaper editors publishing lies has got us to Brexit via [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/boris-johnson-peddled-absurd-eu-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his ]Boris Johnson and the Telegraph.[/url]. A stand needs to be taken against those who distort the truth in the interests of the their agenda and perhaps social media is the place is to start.
Boris Johnson didn't insult the EU with swear words but he insulted both the EU and the readers of the Telegraph with his lies, we ended up with Brexit so the liar won. It happens on this forum with the moderating team adding insult to injury by moderating those who call out Jamba for what he is and what he does in strong but justified terms.
Is Deadly Darcy banned or did he just get sick of reading lies and walk away from the thread? Some people did that with the Telegraph but some people lapped up the Johnson anti-EU propaganda and got us where we are now. Perhaps if the press complaints commission had done something about the Johnson lies and the Briexit lies that appeared in the run up to the referendum the vote would have gone the other way. But the journalists lied with impunity, just like some posters on this forum.
. They don't have major medical cover you describe, if they get really sick they will buy a flight to the UK and get treated here.
Cobblers. Non-residents are not (in general) eligible for NHS treatment.
Edukator, you should balance your views by remembering that our side not only told rather large porkies too but also failed to present a compelling case to remain in the EU. The fact that we lost was OUR fault particularly, as you indicated, the Brexshit case was founded on bllx. No point whining on about the oppo when the fault lay wth us.
How about the lies repeated here on everyday issues like austerity (sic), income inequality etc where the accepted narrative does not hold up to scrutiny and yet the same - what's the word - "lies" keep getting spouted??
DrJ, that may be true in principle but there are no checks and if you appear British you'll get away with it.
DrJ, that may be true in principle but there are no checks and if you appear British you'll get away with it.
So you'll gamble your eligibility for eg cancer treatment on somebody not checking your details properly, now or in the future?
How about the lies repeated here on everyday issues like austerity (sic), income inequality etc where the accepted narrative does not hold up to scrutiny and yet the same - what's the word, lies? - keep getting spouted??
Indeed. We thought you'd left the forum but here you are again.
QED
LOL
Back to the number of Brits living in the EU, if Jamba had posted a figure with a source or link then we could have debated it. If he'd linked the Government estimate from earlier this year with a figure of 900 000 it would have been the starting point for a debate. Exaggertating downwards to 800 000 changed the debate from:
"is this figure realistic and is the source reliable?" to:
"where did you get this number from or have you made it up?"
For more than a decade I lived with the idea that around 500 000 Brits lived in France or owned property in France. No-one had an agenda so the media just published what surveys showed. The numbers permanently resisdent were lower but generally around double those officially resident, so 200-300 000 permanently resident and around 125 000 offficially resident. The Spanish numbers were higher, the BBC quoting 761 000 in this [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/ ]article[/url]. Note the Spanish number is too precise to be a guesstimate (which my "half a million Brits in France" smacks of).
Adding just the French 200 000 and Spanish 761 000 in that BBC article you get 961 000, somewhat more than the UK government now claims for the EU 27, some may have gone home but more than half I think not. The latest goverment figure widely reported in the press (so Google the numbers for context) are France: 157 062 Spain 308 805. To get that low they have only counted those people with officially residency when the whole point of the EU is that people have freedom.
A Brit I know is not part of the official statisitics. She's half French but her father gave up his French nationality so his son didn't have to do national service, so she only has a British passport. She's live in France for years but doesn't need to work so has never offically registered, she still has a UK address and a British EU health card. Her situation is now a little complicated, she's had to take out private health insurance until her application for French residency goes through and will ultimately have to apply for French nationality, but as she has no proof of long term residency that will take a long time. She is not yet retirement age but many of the brits retired in France and Spain are in the same situation as her: not registered as resident and about to lose their rights (and unable to vote in the referendum due to the 15 rule). I'm in a happier situation as I have dual nationality.
So when you read about X hundred thousand Poles in Britian but only 900 000 Brits in the EU 27, you are being misled. The government is lying to make it appear that a bad deal will result in more EU citizens losing out than Brits.
Expat Brits are May's pawns in a game in which she lost her Queen in the early moves.
Jamba is just pushing the "little england" view its his choice. Brexit is the last hurrah for the ration book 1950s brigade - as Hesiltine pointed out the Tory heartland is dying out at 2% a year so in 10 years they are no longer a political force.
As i have said before sit back and let May Johnson Fox and Davies crack on as there are far more effective people in the EU who will show them the limitations of their lies and bull****
teamhurtmore - Member
Edukator, you should balance your views by remembering that our side not only told rather large porkies too but also failed to present a compelling case to remain in the EU. The fact that we lost was OUR fault particularly, as you indicated, the Brexshit case was founded on bllx. No point whining on about the oppo when the fault lay wth us.
And now we move into the next round, lies are equivalent of not presenting a compelling case. If we were to stack up 350 million, Turkey and many millions of Poles what from the Remain campaign matches that?
With leave most of the main agitators have come clean and admitted it was all bollox, at least they have done that. Which leaves the others were you either spreading the lies because you wanted to or were you too gullible you believed them? So the age old question malice or stupidity?
So here we are again, telling lies is fine kids, making promises you have no intention of keeping is OK.
If you are talking about the £350 million figure, then Dominic Cummings will tell you that using a controversial figure is what won it, because the Remain side by arguing were fighting on Leave's strong ground.
If you're on Twitter, you have to follow him by the way. [ [url= https://mobile.twitter.com/odysseanproject ]odysseanproject[/url] ]
Anyway, it's like the sink/swim/burn approach to witches… don't call out the often repeated lie, and it becomes accepted as fact… do call out the lie and it becomes noticed and accepted even more.
How about the lies repeated here on everyday issues like austerity
That's because austerity to you means reducing the national debt, by reducing public spending
Austerity to most people means the huge cuts to local councils, benefits sanctions, library closures, pay freezes, etc etc, yknow stuff that affects the poorest people most, leading to real inequality
But you know all that
Jambs has got better a not posting completely made up facts & figures to support his arguments, but the damage to his reputation has been done.
There's a reason that 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf' has been around longer than Christianity
I'm not gambling anything but as it happens I do know someone who chose to return from Japan to the UK for their cancer treatment basically AIUI because they trusted the UK system more.
In Brexit news, are we leaving the ECJ or not?
Seems that sensible heads are winning out, but I just can't see the EU letting us do it, unless under a transitional deal ...... that our gov seem incapable of delivering
And what has happened to inequality kimbers?
What you allude to is how we have chosen to allocate resources NOT austerity. We have ring-fenced certain areas which ultimately means that other areas are losers. Classic economics - the allocation of scare resources to (unlimited demands).
The U.K. Has relatively loose fiscal policy which is one reason why it recovered relatively quickly. Completely the opposite to the narrative that is used. Now of course, the economy is slowing naturally and we have Brexshit too. So pretty grim all in all
But step aside from the actual lies behind Brexshit and ask why people are prepared to seek false dreams in the likes of the SNP, Trump, Brexshit etc. There's a much bigger story than the £350m lies....
THM claims that austerity isn't happening, because it isn't working.
Public service cuts can cost the economy, and the government, in many ways.
That's easily another 800 page thread there though…
Now, time for me to apologise to THM about something very much on topic…
Looks like the first of May's red lines is indeed turning a little pink!
Hurrah! Your vision begins to take shape! I'm pleased to be wrong.
A wasted year, but then this might not have happened without the butterfingers election.
No links to back this up yet… just heard it on t'radio.
Will return when it's clearer how pink it is… but I hope this is just the start…
What you allude to is how we have chosen to allocate resources NOT austerity
Fair comment. The term austerity was used by those making those choices though to justify shifts in resources. You can understand why people, and I include myself, still use the term in the way it was used by the politicians who justified these changes with its use.
I'm not gambling anything
By "you" I meant "one" 🙂
Hammond on Tuesday also suggested that austerity could be slackened by the Conservatives in future, saying: “Britain is weary after seven years of hard slog repairing the damage of the great recession.”
Theresa May was widely expected to sack Hammond after the election.
But he warned that austerity could only truly be ended by higher growth, higher borrowing, or higher taxes.
Problem you have sticking to your definitions THM is people like the chancellor doesn't. He was calling it Austerity so it seems like it's sticking and the definition is being stretched in this case, whats a bit of truth stretching between friends 😉
What you allude to is how we have chosen to allocate resources NOT austerity.
It certainly looks like austerity to the folks on the receiving end.
(If you pick up a word from the dictionary and invest it with some specific technical meaning, you can't then whinge about people using the old skool normal person's definition.)
Well actually the Tories have been quite smart on austerity although I think unintentionally. They convinced markets that they were going to be fiscally tight despite abandoning the strategy very early on. With the private sector deleveraging governments should not be running surpluses, they should be running deficits, which is exactly what has happened here - despite the BS narrative.
The only valid argument re austerity is to say that our loose fiscal policy is not as loose as it was in the past. Fair enough, but that doesn't make it austere. It's like someone slowing from 50mph to 40moh in a 30mph zone and saying I wasn't speeding.
Of course, at individual levels there has been considerable hardship and cuts. But that is the micro not the macro level. The two should not be confused.
The hard slog is on-going. The lack of austerity in the past has made it easier but has not made the challenge disappear. The big elephant in the room is the weak trend in real wages. But we refuse to tackle the root causes, so we are doomed to be disappointed - Trump, the SNP, Brexshiteers do not have the magic answers as much as they may pretend.
Looks like the first of May's red lines is indeed turning a little pink!
Its almost as if reality, as experienced by those of us living in the real world, is finally making a welcome incursion into the utter madhouse that is the present cloud-cuckooland, have-cake-and-eat-it Tory party, isn't it?
About time too. Because if they were in a weak bargaining position to begin with (which they were), then the EU must be laughing their tits off at this whole shambles, and the utterly powerless, totally directionless, 'government' its delivered. Lets be honest, if you were in their position, what would you be thinking? That its hardly worth bothering actually negotiating with this bunch of clowns. Best to just sit back and wait for them to come begging to you as the deadline, crashing out of the single market, trade tariffs, and the whole financial H bomb comes looming over the hill.
I don't know about you, but I'm heartily ****ing sick of the internal machinations of the various unhinged lunatic factions in the Tory party, playing their silly little one-upmanship games. Its like they're living in their own little self-absorbed bubble. With little or no care as to the potentially devastating effect all this is going to have on the real economy.
The big elephant in the room is the weak trend in real wages.
Of course, dampening down wage growth is by design… all hail our Tory leaders! [ insert smiley ]
don't know about you, but I'm heartily ****ing sick of the internal machinations of the various unhinged lunatic factions in the Tory party, playing their silly little one-upmanship games, is going to have a potentially devastating effect on the real economy.
We all are. BUT there are good, sane, people in the Tory party… here's hoping the butterfingers election strengthens their hand over the next year… there are early signs. Ironically, it's down to the machinations in the Labour Party as much anything as to what will happen… let's be honest. Both parties have had battles with the "unhinged lunatic factions", and both are losing that fight… mostly because "we" voted to give those factions our explict support last June.
True. The Jammers/Brexshitters of the world love pointing out that the positions of the Tory and the Labour party on Brexit are very similar
But this, like most of what passes for thinking in their rabidly anti-EU minds, is utter bollocks.
Yes, the present labour party leadership is at best luke-warm about the EU. But they are ideologically in the polar opposite place to the Tory's. The Torys want out of Europe simply because they want to turn this country into a neo-liberal fantasy island, jettisoning workers rights, environmental laws, and any regulation or restraint on business and finance to do what the bloody hell it likes. And EU regulation/law prevents them from doing that. But they are so determined to do it, so obsessed, that they don't give a toss what the real world damage is to people outside their gilded circles
The labour parties position is very different. in fact it couldn't possibly be more different
hmm. a leader who is lukewarm about the EU at the very best?
fortunately the rank and file are a bit more enthusiastic, including my own MP.
Wel that was in page three of the manifesto obviously, so can you blame them (joke about the deliberate wage deflation)
On the lies issue, let's take another - Hard Brexshit. WTF is that. Both our major parties, who both advocate Brexshit, are proposing a bespoke deal. Neither is suggesting a Hard Brexshit. The closest we get to this is the negotiating tactic of saying that "no deal is better than a bad deal."
What we have is both sides starting positions that are untenable. Neither side can have their cake/gateau and eat/mange it. That is obvious.
Hence we need to negotiate and compromise, The EU are past masters at avoiding negotiations and pushing you into a cul de sac - ask Varoufakis. So the process will be very messy and long winded.
Hasn't stopped the Lib Dems, SNP and Labour shaping the narrative around the lie that the Tories are pursuing a Hard Brexhsit. They are not.
What we have is both sides starting positions that are untenable
True. But one side is in an enormously stronger position than the other. In fact, so effing huge is the differential in authority, and so vast the chasm in potential consequences, that one side can effectively say 'take it or leave it, and if you don't like it then **** off!
And who stands in the way of them doing this?
David Davis, Liam Fox and Boris Johnson...
Lets just have a think about that, shall we.....
Hasn't stopped the Lib Dems, SNP and Labour shaping the narrative around the lie that the Tories are pursuing a Hard Brexhsit. They are not.
So leaving the single market, the customs union, ending freedom of movement, and refusing any ruling by the European Court of Justice is a soft Brexit, is it?
Have you been sniffing the same stuff as Jammers, Hurty? 😉
No that ignores the fact that a hard Brexhsit - if we did end up there? - is a lose:lose. Hence Barnier is being q realistic and open.
The whole thing is a cluster@@@@ for both sides and they know that. So how do you manufacture a result that avoids the doomsday scenario. You boot the whole can down the road as per.
That is the best hope. The rest is noise. The only certainty is that no deal can be delivered in the time frame proposed. So it's silly to pretend otherwise.
No that ignores the fact that a hard Brexhsit - if we did end up there? - is a lose:lose
Its a lose:lose anyway.
No that ignores the fact that a hard Brexhsit - if we did end up there? - is a lose:lose.
I'm not disputing that. But the economic repercussions are potentially a hell of a lot more serious for one side than the other
The only certainty is that no deal can be delivered in the time frame proposed. So it's silly to pretend otherwise.
Again... totally agree with that. yet the only politician prepared to articulate that - Phillip Hammond - is the one who then gets demonised, and shouted down as none-believer, a blasphemer, just for pointing out the bleeding obvious. Its scary the atmosphere of the denial of reality by those who are nominally 'in charge' of negotiations
My worry is that this process is not being handled by cool, business heads - on either side - its being driven by ideologically obsessed fruit-loops.
Good article, worth reading by Nick Cohen: [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/09/brexit-salvations-illusory ]One by one, Brexit's soalvations' are seen to be illusory[/url]
the whole soft v hard is BS Binners and v misleading
As discussed many, many pages back there are four standard approaches to what comes next. As a starting point we are trying to take the benefits of all without the obligations that come with them. That can't happen. Hence something has to give - hopefully IMO FoM as that is a benefit not a cost.
We are ceasing to be members of the single market - we are now negotiating the terms of our future access. Neither side is starting from sustainable positions - and yes EU has a slightly stronger hand but it's a 1 no trump not a 2 clubs hand - but compromise must happen for a result and from both sides
I agree with both of you.
You borrowing Ninfan's defence notes now? The figure being one that Cummings himself did admit was completely misleading and used only to keep the debate up there.
I'm not sure Cummings said that at all, but that hardly matters, the only point I was making was that banging on about things can be somewhat self-defeating.
If you're on Twitter, you have to follow him by the way. [ odysseanproject ]
Have done for a few years, great fun.
Hasn't stopped the Lib Dems, SNP and Labour shaping the narrative around the lie that the Tories are pursuing a Hard Brexhsit. They are not.
We don't have much of an idea what they are pursuing, do we? Other than empty tough talk, what do we have?
THM, remember that the EU is a political project and not an economic one. To think otherwise is a mistake. Whatever happens it will be to support the politics and not the economics.
Exactly! Decisions will be taken by politicians for reasons of political expediency, on both sides.
The EU project is so important to those in power that economic collateral damage will be tolerated to sustain and advance it in the longer term. Unfortunately Brexit is also an opposing ideology. But already it seems that they too think collateral damage will be tolerated as a means to an end. Even if that end is a fantasy
Thats not a good combination. Its a crash course.
What you have to remember here is that, just as with the banking crisis, the people who cause the economic devastation, and could well be the ones who do it all over again, are never the ones who end up paying the price.
That's for us little people. We are the 'collateral damage'
Actually... that'd make a good t-shirt 🙂
THM, remember that the EU is a political project and not an economic one
You what?
i do not need reminding of the fact that the Euro (not the Euro Area) flies in the face of economic logic - hence the social devastation it has caused across the Euro Zone. You see in the end, economics always trumps politics and politicians are fools if they forget that.
I'm not sure Cummings said that at all, but that hardly matters, the only point I was making was that banging on about things can be somewhat self-defeating.
Which is lovely, the point we were discussing was how deliberately telling lies made you a dick so carry on.
You see in the end, economics always trumps politics and politicians are fools if they forget that.
Does it though? The longest period of peace in Western Europe, countries working together rather than constantly fighting. How willing are the French and Germans to see their people die on Belgian battlefields again? The EU and the Euro are far from perfect. All the alternatives that have been tried so far are worse.
As said the EU politically exists to avoid a repeat of the constant wars in Europe, anything else is a sideshow.
Another classy Brexiteer.
I think the Euro has done for the Eurozone countries what the dollar has do for the 50 US states. It's give them a currency it's very hard to attack and move more than a few percent. It's allowed member states to survive a financial crisis that would have resulted in them defaulting and going bankrupt with their old national currency. The Euro has resulted in more cross border business with economies of scale and a bigger market without exchange costs or risks. It's been a boost to business and trade. Between 95 and 2012 trade between Euro zone states was multiplied by 2.3 with most of the rise at the introdution of the Euro (BSI economics).
Perhaps sitting on your island you can't see that but living on a Euro zone border I see the number of Spanish plates in Decathlon car park and the number of French plates on the Spanish side of the border.
Does it though?
Well, the two are not really distinct as they both end up being about messy things like humans with their inbuilt irrationality.
Also see article in today's Grauniad
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jul/11/how-economics-became-a-religion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Does it though? The longest period of peace in Western Europe, countries working together rather than constantly fighting.
And why do they work together? Because their businesses and economies are bound together. I agree with THM - economics is the bottom line, because people need money to buy food and shelter.
don't call out the often repeated lie, and it becomes accepted as fact…
Yep. There's this one for instance:
you should balance your views by remembering that our side not only told rather large porkies too
What lies did "our" side tell, exactly?
Is the Single Market a political means for a purely economic end, or an economic means for a purely political end?
Simplify, simplify, simplify … and you end up with glib nonsense either way.
The contrary argument is that the fixed exchange rate has amplified economic cycles both ways and perhaps most importantly to those of a LW persuasion has led to rising unemployment and 30% contraction in workers' pay across the South. So when we moan about austerity and public say, we should take a look at S Europe for some perspective and a reality check.
Cougs,, we massively overstated the downside risks and their timing for a start officially and some on here total misinterpreted what the decline in GFP would be (albeit due to misunderstanding rather than deliberately). We told porkies about reforming europe etc. Had CMD been honest and said last Feb, that yes we know the EZ is terminally fu@@ed but we have managed to secure a bloody good real that allows us free acces to the single market for a bargain basement price (< 1% of GDP) without the financial obligations of being part of the silly bit, we wouldn't have been in this mess. The Feb deal was brilliant but destroyed by over selling and porkies. OUr side screwed up royally.
The big elephant in the room is the weak trend in real wages. But we refuse to tackle the root causes, so we are doomed to be disappointed - Trump, the SNP, Brexshiteers do not have the magic answers as much as they may pretend.
I agree with this assessment.
Since the 1970s, we've seen a decline in union membership, collective bargaining has gone out of the window and as a result, we've seen the lion's share of wage increases go straight to the very top.
Successive governments have known this, but have failed to address it. I recall writing to my then Labour MP in 2007 to quiz him on the government's plans to reverse the stagnation in social mobility. I received a very wishy-washy response.
It's well worth pointing out the particular malaise we have with productivity too. Successive governments have done all they can to encourage entrepreneurship, but without any state funding for management training. In typical Thatcherism style, everything is done on the cheap. We expect tens of thousands of jobless coal miners, manufacturing workers and shipbuilders to suddenly wake up one morning, become entrepreneurs and then are utterly baffled at the arcane way that work is done.
Since the 1970s, we've seen a decline in union membership, collective bargaining has gone out of the window and as a result, we've seen the lion's share of wage increases go straight to the very top
Flipside here in Oz we have some of the union guys that the 80s hated and more. At the moment we have no car manufacturers and manufacturers are leaving, wages don't always keep jobs.
Which is lovely, the point we were discussing was how deliberately telling lies made you a dick so carry on.
You can try and dignify it, but it came across to me as one of the periodic "let's pile in to Jamby" sessions.
Cougs,, we massively overstated the downside risks and their timing for a start officially and some on here total misinterpreted what the decline in GFP would be (albeit due to misunderstanding rather than deliberately). We told porkies about reforming europe etc. Had CMD been honest and said last Feb, that yes we know the EZ is terminally fu@@ed but we have managed to secure a bloody good real that allows us free acces to the single market for a bargain basement price (< 1% of GDP) without the financial obligations of being part of the silly bit, we wouldn't have been in this mess. The Feb deal was brilliant but destroyed by over selling and porkies. OUr side screwed up royally.
+1, if you want to understand how the referendum was lost, you should read "All Out War" by Tim Shipman. I appreciate THM already has.
Mefty +1 x2 😉
(I failed to finish Shipman largely because I had read Banks's trashy version first and got depressed. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that we LOST the argument)
Cougs,, we massively overstated the downside risks and their timing for a start
You're saying we failed to accurately predict the future? That's hardly lying is it.
total misinterpreted what the decline in GFP would be (albeit due to misunderstanding rather than deliberately)
So we misunderstood something? That's hardly lying is it.
(What's "GFP"?)
We told porkies about reforming europe etc.
What porkies were they?
No Osborne deliberately misled the public and then many lied about what the econometric studies were saying - including a well-known forumite who also struggles with facts - a rival for the derided culprit ^
GFP is a typo, should be GDP - the point was that our cost of membership was a bargain. Should have been simple to sell but we screwed that up too.
We were not going to reform Europe and the Feb meeting was never about that nor could the Tories deliver it. What was achieved was an awesome deal. Sadly the Tories oversold it and the rest decided to attack CMD simple because he was a Tory/Toff etc instead of looking at the detail. Confirming the old adage if being careful what you wish for.
Another part of us remainers screwing it up.
has led to rising unemployment and 30% contraction in workers' pay across the South.
I think you need to back that up with some links, THM.
[url= http://www.journaldunet.com/business/salaire/espagne/pays-esp ]http://www.journaldunet.com/business/salaire/espagne/pays-esp[/url]
A few minutes with Google says salaries have been flat against a background of low inflation. The entry points for the Euro weren't perfect and there has been some adjustment but saying that salaries are down 30% needs some justification.
No I lied 😉
But good point, I was confusing my stories in a rush. What I should have said is that to restore wage competitiveness, wages across S Europe would have decline by 20-30% under a fixed exchange rate system. In the end, we got a partial adjustment plus the other release valve of significantly higher unemployment. Essentially the same thing.
But you are correct to pull me up on sloppy use of figures !!
I see johnson hasnt lost the fine art of saying really stupid things and making everyones job more difficult......
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/884743321796718592
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/may-dumps-brexit-paperwork-on-corbyns-doorstep-and-legs-it-20170711131543 ]Apparently Jezza has now 'taken back control'[/url] 😆