Jamba reminds me of one of our spaff spouting managers who while attending a chemical spill told us that he could categorically state that the chemical probably wasn't dangerous.
As opposed to putting his name to a book someone else wrote for him.
Or open a university to teach his deal-making skills?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/27/chance-orderly-brexit-within-two-years-less-than-50-percent-lord-kerr ]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/27/chance-orderly-brexit-within-two-years-less-than-50-percent-lord-kerr[/url]
another really positive article to go with all the others.
Now can someone please tell me WTF is the point of Brexit? And how the f*** it will get better? or is this for the benefit of my non existent grandchildren????
mthe one man propaganda machine. Facts? We don't need no steenkin' facts.
More than just me singing from those songsheets given various recent election / referendum results no ? If you want your viewpoint to start winning you (and the politicians) are going to have to come up with some fresh strategies. If what TMH and yourself say is true why did Osbourne even bother to scurry off to Junker ? Look it up there where plenty of column inches.
EU legislation is so extensive and vague they can do what they want and what they want is to save the project which is day by day sliding towards the cliff edge.
Where are all these future liabilities written down TMH ? Where is it written we are liable for EU employee pensions ?
Where are all these future liabilities written down TMH ? Where is it written we are liable for EU employee pensions ?
negotiations.
When you divorce what happens to liabilities and assets such as Pensions?
Who is liable for Farages Pension?
Now can someone please tell me WTF is the point of Brexit? And how the f*** it will get better? or is this for the benefit of my non existent grandchildren????
Assuming it goes ahead and Merkel gets to call the shots at the EU end I imagine itll entail several years of transition, where we can still access the single market but have to pay in a reasonable amount until its all sorted out, 5 years time?
In that instance I imagine that it wont be very painful and we'll be at the good end of the OBR predictions. There's still the huge deficit to deal with, but teh city will keep on raking in the cash.
If the hardcore brexiters get their way and we sever all ties in 2019, it will be expensive, but the country will survive on a shit ton of borrowing, and your grandkids can deal with the increase to our debt (would we finally reach greece/italy levels once we pass 90% of GDP?)
both options suck but one is more manageable than the other
the problem is that neither fix the pain felt by cuts to council funding/nhs/soial care and post industrialisation of the economy that many out voters were led to believe to be the fault of the EU.
There is a chink of light at the end of the tunnel. When Alastair Campbell said "stop this Brexit nonsense ever from happening" on Any Questions he was met with strong applause. Hard to imagine that happening a few months ago.
There is a chink of light at the end of the tunnel. When Alastair Campbell said "stop this Brexit nonsense ever from happening" on Any Questions he was met with strong applause. Hard to imagine that happening a few months ago.
Were the 48% too stunned to clap before?
5thElefant - Member
There is a chink of light at the end of the tunnel. When Alastair Campbell said "stop this Brexit nonsense ever from happening" on Any Questions he was met with strong applause. Hard to imagine that happening a few months ago.Were the 48% too stunned to clap before?
the longer the brexishambles 'negotiations' stagger on, the louder the applause will get
the longer the brexishambles 'negotiations' stagger on, the louder the applause will get
It'll be the same people clapping louder.
It'll be the same people clapping louder.
nah all those 16 year olds who had their future screwed over by the OAPs will be eligible to vote in the 2nd referndum š
And the late 30s will enter their 40s...
And the late 30s will enter their 40s...
and the pensioners will be dead.
And the late 30s will enter their 40s...
Indeed, but they didn't particularly vote to diminish Britain like the oldies did. (Note: generalisation) And the oldies will have given up the right to vote by dying.
If what TMH and yourself say is true
It is 100%
why did Osbourne even bother to scurry off to Junker ? Look it up there where plenty of column inches.
I have, its a habit. I know the chronology, what happened then and afterwards and have given links many times.
EU legislation is so extensive and vague they can do what they want and what they want is to save the project which is day by day sliding towards the cliff edge.
In this case it was very specific. Look it up š
If you want your viewpoint to start winning you (and the politicians) are going to have to come up with some fresh strategies.
You seem to imagine that I'm running for office, or something. I'm not. I have no interest in "fresh strategies" for successfully cheating and lying to the electorate, only in uncovering the truth. I realise that that is an alien concept for you, and I have no real expectation that you will get the point, but there it is.
There is a chink of light at the end of the tunnel. When Alastair Campbell said "stop this Brexit nonsense ever from happening" on Any Questions he was met with strong applause. Hard to imagine that happening a few months ago.
I made the same observation about this week's AQ. There were only a couple of nutters ranting about taking control and the will of the people, whereas previously there'd been a whole studio full of them.
It'll be the same people clapping louder.
Really?
With just a hint of the pain people seem to be having second thoughts, the abandonment of the "promises" within days and the admissions that it might not be all awesome for well quite a while means the only voices we hear are the all or nothing lot really.
I made the same observation about this week's AQ. There were only a couple of nutters ranting about taking control and the will of the people, whereas previously there'd been a whole studio full of them.
I think the game changer will be in the new year. IF predicted price rises start to feed through and people start to realise what Brexit means.
Brexit doesn't mean control, you can argue that brussels is remote and that there is no real accountability but the same applies to Westminster. So what does taking control actually mean for the average person??
When pictures of NHS patients on trolleys with no nurses, closed A&Es etc appear in the media, the questions about why politicians aren't doing there job will emerge. When 10-20% rise in the cost of food, fuel, etc that is real and direct, when people discover no pay rises, when councils have to cut even more.
Questions about how much Brexit costs, where are the benefits, etc.
A few more stories about how the triple lock is going to have to be scrapped. How benefits have to be frozen or cut.
Pain, pain and more pain, and maybe the promise of 10-20 years away some benefit that may or may not be realised.
However one thing I have found quite noticeable, from watching Question Time, is that the reaction seems very different depending on location. I.e. in London the response is generally far more anti-brexit, as you would expect.
DrJ if I may say so you should avoid the "we woz robbed" line, ie it was the lies that won it. The Referendum was lost as Remain just did not have sufficient compelling arguments or frankly any enthusiasm for the EU. The campaign jist wasn't good enough and Remain had all the cards and establishment stacked on it's side. I wasn't implying you would be running for office more a euphemism for those campaigning on your behalf on issues you care about.
It's my view the European economy is going to get much worse and when that happens politics usually moves to the right.
[b]Edukator and cchris[/b]
Given Fillon's landslide today and the fact the head of the PS said Hollande should face a contest who has the best chance in April ? Hollande or Valls ?
I haven't heard much from Fillon about Brexit, Sarko has said the UK should be offered a deal to stay and Jupe that we should have the Jungle in Kent ... Fillon not much.
Remain just did not have sufficient compelling arguments
That's just it - they did. But were drowned out by populist lies.
I think Hollande has got no chance . The outsider is macron but he said he wont take part in the left primaire .
I read that Fillon wanted to reinforce the ties with berlin and russia .
[url= http://uk.businessinsider.com/francois-fillon-french-election-candidate-hard-brexit-eu-le-pen-2016-11 ]http://uk.businessinsider.com/francois-fillon-french-election-candidate-hard-brexit-eu-le-pen-2016-11[/url]
and the referenced speech
https://www.fillon2017.fr/2016/06/28/brexit-intervention-assemblee-nationale/
Jamba, this enough for you
All the news about EU giving the UK with hard Brexit sounds like they are trying to embargo the UK. š
EU trying to embargo UK that will be news.
Next year will be an exciting year to welcome plenty of new govts in the EU zone so let's see how they swing. š
it was the lies that won it.
finally true.
The Referendum was lost as Remain just did not have sufficient compelling arguments or frankly any enthusiasm for the EU.
and they underestimated how xenophobic the UK really is.
EU trying to embargo UK that will be news.
I am sure the French fishermen can do that if they so choose, not hard to shut Dover.
EU trying to embargo UK that will be [s]news.[/s] [b]spin[/b]
Fify...
[i]You do it to yourself, you do
And that's what really hurts
Is you do it to yourself, just you
You and no-one elseā¦[/i]
It's my view the European economy is going to get much worse and when that happens politics usually moves to the right.
It may do but it's bad news for the UK in or out of the eu.
I agree with Chris, Hollande has failled by his own measures and is the most unpopular president ever. He would be mad to stand, but is perhaps mad enough.
Madame likes Macron, there were something like 50 000 party members involved in organising today's centre/right primaries. Macron needs to build that kind of support and put together a party double quick if he is to stand a chance as an alternative to the PS. It's a long shot.
Valls is somewhere between Judge Dredd and Robo Cop with a hint of socialism. He stands a chance but it will depend on who he's running against. I think he'd lose against Fillon and Le Penn, and think most socialists realise this so they are hoping for a new messiah to arrive in a blaze of light to head the party. Quite who that will be I have no idea. The right have their Thatcher, the left are looking for their Blair.
from reading the post above , Fillon wants a hard brexit , no hostlity but no presents . no acess to single market and no special treatment for passporting etc...
teamhurtmore - Member
and they underestimated how xenophobic the UK really is.
I don't think that is the case because most people voted out because they don't like the EU bureaucratic system.
I think the French fishermen might join us because their lives are no better with the EU bureaucratic system.mrmo - Member
I am sure the French fishermen can do that if they so choose, not hard to shut Dover.EU trying to embargo UK that will be news.
mikewsmith - Member
The EU is actually threatening embargo but just short of saying it.
Yeap, sounds like embargo to me. Let's hope he does not win.cchris2lou - Member
from reading the post above , Fillon wants a hard brexit , no hostlity but no presents . no acess to single market and no special treatment for passporting etc...
A thing that's always puzzled me....question for you, THM.
Am I correct in saying that, under the eurozone regs....in the event of there being a massive bailout to, for example, Greece, we'd be obliged to help under the 'collateral' arrangement- but would immediately be paid back?
And this is under the EFSM?
I don't think that is the case because most people voted out because they don't like the EU bureaucratic system.
you don't know the english very well....
No irish, no blacks no dogs There is a reason that the story can't die.
Reasons i have heard, more money for the NHS and no immigrants. ( not less, but NONE)
Ed for PM? The hoi polloi love him.
I must say, given the weird votes this year in the UK and US, I'm surprised Ed has gone out. I had him down as the winner.
Did the eu vote for brexit?
Do they give up trade access for all the other non eu countries for free?
Do the other countries that have some free access to the eu don't at a price and subject to conditions?
Blaming the eu for pointing out the obvious is the next step of the brexit shambles and lies, when it doesn't work how some people imagined then it's the EU's fault for not giving in to the child having a tantrum.
[b]The[/b] hoi polloi
[img] 
[/img]
I don't think that is the case because most people voted out because they don't like the EU bureaucratic system
Very early in this thread I underlined some of the things I find unacceptable in the way the EU functions, I also stated I'd vote remain despite that (I can't vote in the UK so purely hypothetical). People who voted out had a much stronger reason than bureaucraphobia.
Ya, but you are talking about the history that is from bygone era.mrmo - Member
I don't think that is the case because most people voted out because they don't like the EU bureaucratic system.
you don't know the english very well....
No irish, no blacks no dogs There is a reason that the story can't die.
Reasons i have heard, more money for the NHS and no immigrants. ( not less, but NONE)
Ya, but you are talking about the history that is from bygone era.
Thing is it isn't history, there is still a substantial part of the English population that believes they are a better race than everyone else. That the world owes the English a living because they bought civilisation etc. That have failed to grasp that the world has changed and that while there was a time when the UK had an empire those days are gone.
But rather than look forward to a new world, they cling to the old.
People prefer to vote out because they have no confidence in EU bureaucratic system so rather than wait to let the rot deepen, people grabbed the chance the moment it was presented to them.Edukator - Reformed Troll
I don't think that is the case because most people voted out because they don't like the EU bureaucratic system
Very early in this thread I underlined some of the things I find unacceptable in the way the EU functions, I also stated I'd vote remain despite that (I can't vote in the UK so purely hypothetical). People who voted out had a much stronger reason than bureaucraphobia.
They are not concerned about what EU is or is Not because they don't buy into their concept anymore. The experiment has lasted for 43 years and people have decided that it is time to consigned this project to its fate.
Cody. No after the last bailout, the situation was clairified because there was confusion about the different mechanisms and how they were "supposed" to work before. We did provide funding for Greece before but this was 100% collateralised and paid back in full. However, after that the situation was clarified in writing and it was explicitly noted that non EZ members would have no financial liability to EZ funding issues. There is EU documentation and documentation from both houses here (ie, UK) that makes this crystal clear.
But Brexishiteers need to perpetuate lies to keep the ponzi-esque schemes of BS above water.
mrmo - Member
Ya, but you are talking about the history that is from bygone era.Thing is it isn't history, there is still a substantial part of the English population that believes they are a better race than everyone else. That the world owes the English a living because they bought civilisation etc. That have failed to grasp that the world has changed and that while there was a time when the UK had an empire those days are gone.
But rather than look forward to a new world, they cling to the old.
There is no such thing as perfect world but trying to be too idealistic might simply do more harm to everyone.
They have failed to grasp the changing world or you refusing to accept them as who they are?
Change yourself not others.
People complained about bureaucracy and then couldn't explain how is affected them in practice, but we know how the fear of Johnny affected them much better. They even made up lies about how it affected jobs, wages, public services etc.
And that's wot won it....
What do you take before posting on this thread, chewkw? The referendum was a few months ago, not before the Great War. Your bygone era is right now and prospering.
Your on-line persona is a mass of contradictions on this thread. If you really are what you claim to be then why are you in favour of the UK closing its doors to people like you?
