[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

"Business opportunities in the commonwealth countries". Yes. But has he tried them?

Canada - we tried that. Shafted, suspected corruption at local political / business levels. Not really a replacement for the ease of dealing with the EU.
India - bureaucracy which makes the complained about EU red tape look trivial. Great to be there but EU wasn't stopping us.

Non Commonwealth:
Middle East? Already can and do.
Far East? Already can and do.
USA? Already can and do.
Africa? Bit like India, but with added spice of regional conflict.

Really not seeing where we can make up for pissing off the EU. High margin, easy & relatively cheap transport, stable legal environment.

There aren't any countries we can't already go to and any benefits of changing the relationships there are outweighed by the additional costs almost certainly coming to deal with EU.

I can only assume Andy thinks he is Tom Hollander playing Prince Mark.

Looks like a packed week of negotiations next week (one day).

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761 ]UK to agree Brexit divorce bill before trade talks - EU sources[/url]

slowoldman - You just beat me to posting that link.

Can't wait for the brexiteering cheerleaders to start frothing at the mouth!

I'm now just hoping lib dems will prop up the tories providing we get a second referendum... 🙂 Yes I know this is staggering unlikely but I can but hope!

Our government is so obviously dysfunctionality right now + with clueless idiots like May & Davis in charge, maybe the EU will take pity on us?

Our government is so obviously dysfunctionality right now + with clueless idiots like May & Davis in charge, maybe the EU will take pity on us?

By invading the UK and installing a government not entirely made of cretins? Fingers crossed 🙂

although as THM would point

Oi, you can't (mis)-quote me, I don't post here anymore 😉

😳

THM - please do post. It's genuinely good to see you back.

Seconded. You may not always be right THM but at least you know something about economics! I value your posts.

Nice holiday THM ? Any Hankley riding 🙂 ?

Kind words ^ thank you. Waves back.

Been riding more on the dark side recently ATP not much MTB and only [s]dogging [/s] dog walking on Hankley. Interetsingly, ruled out the new Roubaix on demo two weeks ago as hated it. Nice long demo down to Goodwood on it though. Hate sportive bikes it turns out!!

On train tonight so dipped in to have a look. Not a return though for good reasons. - have fun weekends.

John Redwood, whose crimes against logic are surely by now the subject of a class-action suit by the Vulcan species

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/exciting-brexit-future-all-rubbish-bits-past-david-davis?CMP=share_btn_tw

Although a great read that Guardian link above is hugely saddening as much of it is no doubt right and will be proven so in time.

Once it's too late.

Meanwhile in downtown Germany:

Indeed, the party of Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher has turned into a gaggle of high rollers and unwitting clowns.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/death-of-brexit-at-the-hands-of-theresa-may-a-1152330-amp.html

You are making a very grave mistake tmh

I saw the deliberate false briefings started from the EU, "UK has agreed to discuss exit bill before trade"

I don't expect any real news from these talks until after the German elections

As an aside the Labour Party's manifesto commitment to allow all EU citizens to remain in the UK post Brexit would not meet the EU's stated requirement which is for all EU citizens who have ever lived in the UK the right to remain / retrurn, dor thei family members to join them and for their unborn children to have th right to remain. Also the ECJ should have jurisdiction over their rights until they pass away.

Blah blah blah blah blah 🙄

[quote=jambalaya ]You are making a very grave mistake tmh
I saw the deliberate false briefings started from the EU, "UK has agreed to discuss exit bill before trade"
I don't expect any real news from these talks until after the German elections
As an aside the Labour Party's manifesto commitment to allow all EU citizens to remain in the UK post Brexit would not meet the EU's stated requirement which is for all EU citizens who have ever lived in the UK the right to remain / retrurn, dor thei family members to join them and for their unborn children to have th right to remain. Also the ECJ should have jurisdiction over their rights until they pass away.

I would hope it does include at least some rights for those who have lived here (or Brits who have previously lived in the EU. I for one have 5 years worth of pension contributions in the German system I am entitled to one day. Not a huge amount but will make up for the shortfall in my UK contributions over the same period. Losing them because I no longer live in Germany would be criminal. Likewise if an EU citizen has worked in the UK and paid their NI they too should be entitled to their [i]pro rata[/i] share of a state pension.

So, these Brexit negotiations, are the tories bringing their crack A-team, you know the ones that have just dispatched the DUP 10 votes tie up deal to shore up their minority government (who are unionists and should be pre-disposed to their ideology in the first place) in record time?

Lets face, it we're ****ed!

dont worry greece will have exploded, the Euro gone, France will have a more anti EU leader and so will germany so the negotiations will be very easy for our crack team oh and of course they need us more than we need them and WTO will be just brilliant so does it really matter anyway

Kier Starmer is daft. Of course the EU isn't going to reform THE single market to permit us tariff free access.

Blah blah blah blah blah

Another stunningly valuable contribution from you Pigface

David Davis.

What could possibly go wrong?

jambalaya - Member

Blah blah blah blah blah

Another stunningly valuable contribution from you Pigface

It's still significantly more useful than anything you've posted, Jamby

and briefer and more factually accurate

How can he post what he doe son here and then get upset that is he not taken seriously or his opinion respected

Another stunningly valuable contribution from you Pigface

As Zokes says makes more sense than your usual contribution

Kier Starmer is daft.

What does that make you?

150

😆

Kier Starmer is daft. Of course the EU isn't going to reform THE single market to permit us tariff free access.

I think Jambalaya is right. We're heading for hard Brexit. Everything else is just wishful thinking.

Note that I am *not* saying that a hard Brexit is a good thing.

they need us more than we need and we will get a trade deal ...shall i reference you saying that for you Jambers?

I agree we wont get this and we never were going to get this
We could never leave and have a better deal than in.

the problem is this is not what vote leave nor he was saying prior to the vote it is what stay was saying would happen.

He is right but only after being wrong for years on this and "forgetting" what he originally said

It might just be me as well but if Davis or a tory had said it i rather feel like he would be praising it as achievable and proof of something or other as his principles appear very fluid.

Ah deadly still dragging up a post from 3 weeks before the election amdnone I revised downwards.

85% of people voted for a Brexit I support, no freedom of movement, no membership of /access to THE single market and no customs union.

@zokes if you and others had paid more attention to what I was posting and the issues raised maybe Remain might have won. Remain failed totally to do so hence the 85% of votrs at the GE being cast for Brexit Manifestos.

Blah blah blah blah

The whole "no deal is better than a bad deal" guff that was spouted by Theresa Gray was just an amateurish attempt to soften up the British public for the inevitable failure of the negotiations.

85% of people voted for a Brexit I support, no freedom of movement, no membership of /access to THE single market and no customs union.

No, absolute ******** a large number of people voted for the whoever they felt would represent them best, May asked for a mandate to negotiate she lost, people are sick and tired of austerity. Further of the choices who is going to fail in brussels, quite clearly the tory party is way out of its depth. Being blunt there was very little mention of brexit during the election.

Welcome to a two party system where you vote for the least worst option. If Kensington votes Labour what does that say about the Tory party.

Ah deadly still dragging up a post from 3 weeks before the election amdnone I revised downwards.

85% of people voted for a Brexit I support, no freedom of movement, no membership of /access to THE single market and no customs union.

@zokes if you and others had paid more attention to what I was posting and the issues raised maybe Remain might have won.

Remain failed totally to do so hence the 85% of votrs at the GE being cast for Brexit Manifestos.

I love the way Jamba pulls figures out of the air to try and back his cause. Funny how 51.8% last year to leave is now 85% for a hard brexit. You just couldn't make it up.... Oh.

He lives on a different planet from me.

So. Our crack negotiating team, they done the DUP 10 yet? Jeez, after that Brexit is going to be a breeze...

And no deal better than a bad deal. Here's the thing, no deal is literally the worst you can get. Unless our fearless champs of negotiations can royally **** things [i]really[/i] badly... Oh, sorry. I get you now. No deal it is then 😯

I love the way Jamba pulls figures out of the air to try and back his cause. Funny how 51.8% last year to leave is now 85% for a hard brexit.

He also came out with the same BS a week ago and was put straight then. It really is pointless engaging with him and I really don't see why anyone bothers.

And no deal better than a bad deal. Here's the thing, no deal is literally the worst you can get. Unless our fearless champs of negotiations can royally **** things really badly... Oh, sorry. I get you now. No deal it is then

How many countries on earth have no trade deals, remember we are going from 100's to ZERO. Really going to help the UK economy.

Look at the Labour position, jobs matter, and the Tory position we'll create a tax haven.

Which do you think is preferable for the vast majority?

@kerley: I was talking [i]about [/i]him, not [i]to[/i] him... 😆

After his little tirade about the republican shooting the other day, I'm not engaging with him. A line (of common decency) has been crossed.

@mrmo: ?

My point is that the crack negotiations team is so shit that they can't even get the worst deal, no, they have to go worse than that... Don't think I'm endorsing the useless ****s (or brexit) because I'm not!

Survey in today's Mail on Sunday 69% against a hard brexit.

I didn't vote Labour because I support their position on Brexshit. I voted for them because they are not ****s.

@metalheart, not contradicting you, sorry if not clear,

Tories are going to screw it up, labour might, but i (shockingly) believe that Labour are more capable than the Tories.

People didn't vote labour for their? version of brexit, they voted to send a strong message to the Tories, and make sure they understood they didn't have a mandate to screw us all in the ass.

Just read this article translated from a respected Swiss Newspaper. This is how it is being seen from over there....

[i]This article in a Swiss newspaper today is so ruthlessly clear-sighted in its assessment of just how screwed we are that I just had to translate it for the non-German speakers. Hold on to your hats:
[/i]

"THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE
[Translation by Paula Kirby]
If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country?
Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point.
In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit.
The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem.
Already prices are rising in the shops, already inflation is on the up. Investors are holding back. Economic growth has slowed. And that’s before the Brexit negotiations have even begun. With her unnecessary general election, Prime Minister Theresa May has already squandered an eighth of the time available for them. How on earth an undertaking as complex as Brexit is supposed to be agreed in the time remaining is a mystery.
Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line.
The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government.
EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt.
British society is now more divided than at any time since the English civil war in the 17th century, a fact that was demonstrated anew in the general election, in which a good 80% of the votes were cast for the two largest parties. Neither of these parties was offering a centrist programme: the election was a choice between the hard right and the hard left. The political centre has been abandoned, and that is never a good sign. In a country like Great Britain, that for so long had a reputation for pragmatism and rationality, it is grounds for real concern. The situation is getting decidedly out of hand.
After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover."

Translation by Paula Kirby

@welshfarmer depressing.

Seems fair comment to me, thanks Welsh Farmer.

85% of people voted for a Brexit I support, no freedom of movement, no membership of /access to THE single market and no customs union.

Liar.

Welsh farmer; what's the original source of that translation, there's bits of it I'd like to use in a discussion elsewhere but I'd need to know the origin beforehand. Old fashioned I know.

https://twitter.com/paulaskirby?lang=en

its in this twitter feed

http://mobile2.derbund.ch/articles/59442e3cab5c3744ba000001

Thanks

This twitter has Not written anything of substance or importance at all.

What a gullible twitter. 😆

1st paragraph - totally dramatic expression I can do that better.

2nd paragraph - misleading information as Brexit voters come from all or every parties regardless. This information alone shows naivety on the twitter views.

3rd paragraph - how does the twitter evaluate suffering? How does the twitter measure that. Besides, why so concerned about UK?

4th paragraph - Inflation up & down is rather normal. As for the investors they are the same all over coz everyone is waiting. Now to make a big deal by a twitter? Ya, tell your own investors to invest blindly.

5th paragraph - How does the twitter know Britain future? Stronger or weaker? There is a time for adjustment so does that mean the twitter's crystal ball can see future?

6th paragraph - EU bureaucratic system just have to negotiate with British Govt, nothing you can do about it coz you're not in-charged.

7th paragraph - EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier just have to be patient as there is nothing he can do about who UK send for negotiation. Not up to him to dictate who UK negotiator(s) is.

8th paragraph - Go look at your own EU bureaucratic controlled backyard states then see if they are divided.

9th paragraph - So the twitter is still thinking of empire building. Really they cannot consider alternatives and in a way actually reflect the true nature of EU bureaucratic system. i.e. empire building but just does not admit it. You got to be so silly not to see that.

You lot just like to see or to read whatever materials that fit your view only. Simple. 😆

All hail the killfile.

deadlydarcy - Member
All hail the killfile.

deadlydarcy is my friend. 😛

Hmmm - not sure this fits with '85% voting for Brexit':
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/british-people-have-changed-their-minds-on-brexit-poll-finds/ar-BBCPaJH?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

Fifty-three per cent of people would back a vote on whether to accept the terms of the final Brexit deal, with 47 per cent opposed, a Survation poll found.

When the same question was asked in April, a majority of 54 per cent were against a second referendum.

The survey results suggests there is increasing opposition among the public to a 'hard Brexit'.

Only 35 per cent agreed with Theresa May that "no deal is better than a bad deal" in EU negotiations, the research for The Mail on Sunday found.

Some 69 per cent of people were against Britain leaving the EU customs union, a key issue in the talks.

85% of people voted for a Brexit I support, no freedom of movement, no membership of /access to THE single market and no customs union

Its a tough tough call this on the one hand the pollsters with their track record and on the other Jamby with his

Cannot call 😉

To suggest people voted Labour in order to obtain hard Brexit is utter nonsense.

Jamby with his

Austria has turned Nazi, The Netherlands is under the jackboot of the Far Right Wilders, France is ruled by LePen, the Eurozone is collapsing when markets open tomorrow, Turkey is set to be fast-fracked to full EU membership by August. And Germany will lurch to the right this year as well.

And the Tories have a majority of

150.

Speaks for itself JY. No idea what you're on about.

Austria has turned Nazi, The Netherlands is under the jackboot of the Far Right Wilders, France is ruled by LePen, the Eurozone is collapsing when markets open tomorrow, Turkey is set to be fast-fracked to full EU membership by August. And Germany will lurch to the right this year as well.

And the Tories have a majority of

150.

Wow ! that's a scary glimpse into a dark dystopian reality

Phew, so relieved that didn't happen.

Given the events of last week I thought we were living in a dark dystopian reality

Yes WE are, but Europe has escaped.

John McDonnell confirmed again today (on Sophie Ridge) that Labour's position is no freedom of movement, no membership of the single market and no customs union. Not surprising he did that as its all in here

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017/brexit

Total number of MPs epected on that vision of Brexit is thus 594 out of 650. A figure that surpases even the 494 vs 122 who voted to trigger A50 8)

Yep, just the UK in stuck in some weird neofascist version of the matrix...

R4: new word - Brextremist....

Total number of MPs epected on that vision of Brexit is thus 594 out of 650

#jambafact

Not surprising he did that as its all in here

[img] [/img]

[quote=jambalaya ]Not surprising he did that as its all in here
http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017/brexit

Did you even bother to read the link you provided, or did you just assume it supported the #jambafacts? The very first mention of the negotiating specifics is: "negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union".

Hence I'm extremely surprised at John McDonnell ruling that out.

85% of votrs at the GE being cast for Brexit Manifestos.

No.

85% of votes went to one of the two main parties in what is in effect (and has been for decades) a two-party system... we effectively have no realistic choice to vote for either Labour or Tory if we want our vote to count towards putting a government in place that we approve of.

Liberals don't have a strong enough proposition and are badly weakened by their coalition experience. Greens are a tiny party so of course they got tiny numbers of votes. UKIP lost huge numbers of votes. Thank God.

This voting pattern does NOT mean we voted for either Brexit manifesto. Anyone who wants to suggest that is clearly grasping at straws. Correlation does NOT mean causation.

It gives me hope - having to misrepresent stats in order to reassure yourself of your argument is a tacit acceptance of the data not backing up your beliefs.

Brexit will fall apart under it's own contradictions. It is already, and we've not even started the negotiations...

jambalaya - Member

Ah deadly still dragging up a post from 3 weeks before the election amdnone I revised downwards.

3 whole weeks before, aye, when Theresa May was playing a blinder. Course, when you revised it downwards to an estimate still spectacularly wrong, you pretended that was what you'd said all along...

Cmon guys, this election was all about Brexit, of TM gaining a mandate! It all went swimmingly: everybody lost. Except the brextremists...

Of course [i]everybody[/i] has voted for a hard brexit... Even me (and I didn't even know it!). It stands to reason, no other interpretation is possible, duh.i feel so stupid...

**** me, just what is Jamba smoking. That sure is some [i]powerful[/i] shit 😯

brooess - Member
Brexit will fall apart under it's own contradictions. It is already, and we've not even started the negotiations...

Besides, it is the Conservative party that is in govt not other party(s).

😆

Oh god. You've nothing to say that you haven't already said before. Please just go away.

Please just go away.

You can make him go away just a bit. All hail the killfile.

PJM1974 - Member
Oh god. You've nothing to say that you haven't already said before. Please just go away.

The newspapers and media might hoodwink or wind you up that there will be an election is simply fantasy.

The news and media are just raking it for themselves. 😮

Think about this do you think the Govt is going to take a risk again? 😆

EU referendum has already been won by Brexit. We are leaving the EU bureaucratic system. 😛

We've had this discussion before, many times. I've politely explained that there's such a thing as a representative democracy and that stuff doesn't always happen just because chewkw says it will. Anything else is simply repetition.

Chewkw, please just either read up on your subject matter and join the [i]debate[/i] or simply just go away.

STOP FEEDING HIM

get the kill file and ignorance really is bliss

Austria has turned Nazi,

Doesn't surprise me at all - Austrians barely have much awareness of their past - unlike Germans and the whole country seems to have a massive entitlement complex considering how affluent they are on average.

For example Linz is a beautiful city, to those that don't remember history - and then you just start seeing darkness and pig ignorance everywhere you look in that city.

[img] [/img]

Most people, including Austrians would walk past that balcony utterly oblivious to its history.

Junkyard - lazarus
STOP FEEDING HIM

get the kill file and ignorance really is bliss

Link...?

chewkw - Member

There will be no more election for a term at least.

This is [i]genius.[/i]

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/singletrack-world-forum-e/cpgdlmbifgbhcoigdoeoooakijdionop

you need to then download deluge to make it work - no idea why
Works with chrome browser not sure of others