[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Well ninfan talk to you other half, kindle the love, don't let your Brexy press spend 20 years bullying her...

might be better than giving the missus the kids and the house and moving in to a bedsit.

All well and good for her she thinks, but I know she can't pay the mortgage without me, and it looks like the Turkish neighbour she was planning to set up a new life with is actually a control freak with even less money than me, whose house is overrun with next-doors kids.

edit: And whilst the bedsit may be uncomfortable for a while, I'm getting on increasingly well with this American girl down the road who may be a bit bipolar, but she's got loads of money.

might be better than giving the missus the kids and the house and moving in to a bedsit.

But we get all the spent nuclear fuel, all the plutonium...

The issue with Greece is more about the lunacy that is the Euro than the EU as a whole.

ninfan - Member

You think its better that we just stay together, unhappy, in a loveless relationship, just for the sake of the kids?

I think considering all the other ways we've ****ed with the kids, yes, that seems like a pretty good idea.

I know she can't pay the mortgage without me

Given how most divorce settlements go, you may want to re-think that analogy:

Oh look she got the kids, your life savings, the house, half your income and all your friends.

Meanwhile you are left living in a squalid one bedroom flat with an aromatic view of the sewage works and nothing but a six pack of extra strength value lager and your acidic bitterness for company.

But hey, at least you took back control eh? 😉

[i]"But doesn't she know she needs me more than I need her?"[/i] you mumble to yourself, as the last can falls from your lips and spills slightly on your yellowed y-fronts...

(Edited for good taste. Sorry)

its not a DIVORCE is it

we arent to try to claim half of Europe or assets belonging europe,

as someone said earlier its a business and telling someone unless we get this your not even getting a foot in the door is called blackmail

.

It is a divorce - we were integrated and we shared a lot of stuff, now we have to separate it.

its a business and telling someone unless we get this your not even getting a foot in the door is called blackmail

How can it be business but also "blackmail"?

If one company had specific preconditions that it wanted met before it negotiated a deal with another company then you wouldn't call that blackmail.

and here is a thought, why did the UK shack up with the EU in the first place? nothing to do with the economy collapsing? Nothing to do with the declining living standards, etc etc etc.

[quote=ninfan ]edit: And whilst the bedsit may be uncomfortable for a while, I'm getting on increasingly well with this American girl down the road who may be a bit bipolar, but she's got loads of money.

you clearly haven't noticed her cosying up with your ex behind your back, having realised you're not worth wasting time on now you're a no hoper in a bedsit

trying to improve something

You must have a short memory. Don't you remember what was in Cameron's begging bowl when he tried to negotiate reform?

The EU is incapable of reform. If they showed any sense they were willing to reform then I for one would have voted differently.

They for starters should lock Juncker away in a dark room as every time he opens his mouth it makes me realise I am glad I voted out.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39816044 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39816044[/url]

I appreciate we all have a right to an opinion, but the amount of negative comment on this forum makes you feel like you are posting on the EU Commission forum.

The EU is incapable of reform.

It's changed a lot over the years.

you clearly haven't noticed her cosying up with your ex behind your back, having realised you're not worth wasting time on now you're a no hoper in a bedsit

yeah, someone reckoned that, but it turns out that in reality we have mutual friends and we, well, you know, sort of speak the same language - plus luckily we have known each other for years, in fact the past we had to help my ex out of all sorts of messed up situations, so she knows just how untrustworthy my ex really is.

The fun part is that many anti-EU people seem to be able to believe simultaneously that the EU is incapable of change, but also that it's changed massively and exceeded its original mandate and purpose.

The EU is incapable of reform. If they showed any sense they were willing to reform then I for one would have voted differently.

thats just trotting out brainless tropes from the rightwing press

EU law is constantly evolving, something that the UK has played a huge part in shaping
the new EU patent court was largely driven by the UK
and weve had huge involvement in science regulation throughout the EU, which has become the global standard for many areas of research

comments like the above make me think that brexit is just an exercise in ignorance and anti-intellectualism

EU law is constantly evolving, something that the UK has played a huge part in shaping
the new EU patent court was hugely driven by the UK

That's why the ex analogy doesn't really work, we are the eu ..........and as for Turkey joining, well.

"comments like the above make me think that brexit is just an exercise in ignorance and anti-intellectualism"

Well they have had enough of experts........

How can it be business but also "blackmail"?

If one company had specific preconditions that it wanted met before it negotiated a deal with another company then you wouldn't call that blackmail.

I never coined the term "business" someone else did a few pages pack iirc

No your right to some degree however being told unless you pay our bill we arent prepared to consider any further discussion on any other topics .....what is that called?

So much butt hurt over a little joke, jeez. Wasn't it supposed to be the liberals that are 'professionally offended'?

Possibly, but Brexies are professional outraged and whinging types.

Juncker got you Brexies, hook line and sinker.

Poor fools

exceeded its original mandate and purpose.

Possibly, but Brexies are professional outraged and whinging types.

Juncker got you Brexies, hook line and sinker.

Poor fools

comments like the above make me think that brexit is just an exercise in ignorance and anti-intellectualism

flanagaj - Member

Agreed. Treaty of Paris?

The relinquishing of the Flemish claim to Zeeland?

Not that Treaty of Paris. [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1951) ]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1951)[/url]

Not that Treaty of Paris.

So the Eu can reform then? Just not in a way you'd like?

I think when people mention the inability of the EU to change, they mean changing the direction it is heading in.
Of course it has changed massively over the years on it's course to full political union.

Not that Treat of Paris

The one signed five years after Churchill made his [url= http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html ]epic speech[/url] saying [i]"We must build a kind of United States of Europe... ...The first step is to form a Council of Europe"[/i]

Original mandate and purpose you say...?

Of course it has changed massively over the years on it's course to full political union.

i suppose it all comes down to whether you prefer putting up barriers to bringing them down and integrating

Shall I fetch a ladder so you can get off your high horse. Seems to be a common trait from the 'remoaner' camp.

us proud remoaners are still young enough to leap deftly from our lofty steeds 😉

We have a natural physical barrier between us and the rest of Europe, it's probably why as a nation we are so eurosceptic.

We have a natural physical barrier between us and the rest of Europe, it's probably why as a nation we are so eurosceptic

Like Eire you mean? Though I agree with you, I think it's also something in our character. Empire and winning wars (or being on the winning side) hasn't helped with European integration.

Not being ruled by the Hun is almost certainly at the back of the eurosceptic's mind. It certainly was in my Grandfather's, but then he witnessed Germany's uninvited excursion into Poland first hand, so I can forgive his caution.

And yet ironically that was one of the driving forces behind a united Europe. To stop inter European wars.

No irony needed. Wars generally occur because one lot of people don't want to be ruled by another.
You can avoid war by surrendering.

And likewise the seeds of war are sown by division and tribalism.

It's certainly a tricky problem. But I've never considered working together for mutual benefit and peace to be a "surrender".

Wars occur for many reasons, but hatred and vilification of "others" tends to be key.

But I've never considered working together for mutual benefit and peace to be a "surrender".

Absolutely not, but then we're not at war, thankfully.

(Bizarrely I had a dream I was in a concentration camp in Poland last night, being personally abused by Hitler himself. I managed to escape to safety, much my like my Grandfather in reality, though he was shored up in Siberia. 304 sqdn, BTW)

Absolutely not, but then we're not at war, thankfully.

Funnily enough that's exactly what the right wing press are trying their very best to imply

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

and Lynton Crosby knows that stirring up that kind of hatred is a powerful tool at the ballot box

So he programmes Maybot to get the lectern outside number 10 and attack Junker the day b4 the local elections.....

See also folk like chewkw suggesting that our nuclear subs should be part of the EU negotiations!

Nuclear oblivion - the ultimate in gunboat diplomacy 😯

Nuclear oblivion - the ultimate in gunboat diplomacy

Some of us always said that the reason we retained the Nuclear deterrent in the Royal Navy rather than The Army or RAF was because only the senior service remembered who the [i]true[/i] enemy was.

GrahamS - Member

See also folk like chewkw

I'd rather not. 🙂

ninfan - Member

only the senior service remembered who the true enemy was.

The MOD Procurement teams?

The government?

[quote=Northwind ]The fun part is that many anti-EU people seem to be able to believe simultaneously that the EU is incapable of change, but also that it's changed massively and exceeded its original mandate and purpose.

Schrodingers EU

Junker / English thing we have done before, remember the negotiations where going to be French 🙂

We do not care what langauge the EU uses, its none of our business post 2019.

As for change the EU is incapable of a change of direction, its a one-way project.

For the euro, yes it really is the EU, its central to their economic and political superstate agenda

[quote=ninfan ]yeah, someone reckoned that, but it turns out that in reality we have mutual friends and we, well, you know, sort of speak the same language - plus luckily we have known each other for years, in fact the past we had to help my ex out of all sorts of messed up situations, so she knows just how untrustworthy my ex really is.

So you might think, but that American lass, she's only interested in herself (a bit like you really) and has noticed that your ex is a lot better off than you. You might think you're important to her, but she's just playing you.

This government and the Brexit brigade are being jingoistic - look it up.

What reforms would you have like to seen implemented for you to be happy to stay a part of the EU?

If your problem is with some beurocrates which number so few compared with the 500M people in the EU then you're as deluded as we all thought. If it is because of 'uncontrolled' immigration then you're as xenophobic as we thought. If you think the UK can do better on it's own then I refer you back to the 'where does it stop' question previously posted.

What exactly are you (or the PM) standing up against?
Specifically a leaked story to the FAZ designed to embarrass the PM and influence the election, secondly the fanciful "exit payment" nonsense from the EU

So you're standing up to that!? Is that all? Wow, let's hope we see you in the honours list next year! Services to Brexit. Question is, will it be an OBE or CBE?

Have we talked yet about the potential for import duty on stuff from Canyon/YT and bikediscount.de etc? 🙂

Those newspaper front pages are certainly textbook definitions of jingoism.

sbob - Member

GrahamS - Member
See also folk like chewkw

I'd rather not.

Have we talked yet about the potential for import duty on stuff from Canyon/YT and bikediscount.de etc

have we also talked about the potential for no VAT on bikes and cycling components in order to promote sustainable transport options?

😆

have we also talked about the potential for no VAT on bikes and cycling components in order to promote sustainable transport options?[\quote]

I am not sure the core Tory vote will be looking at sustainable transport and green policies over say a reduction in fuel duty...

 

Air pollution report says they might.
And a diesel scrappage scheme in favour of EVs - £8k a pop.

Perhaps

Air pollution. Pfft. Let's just chuck that on the bonfire of regulations. 😀

To be fair, yes, it's an EU regulation aimed at not killing people.
The Brexies will hate it for two reasons.

Some of us always said that the reason we retained the Nuclear deterrent in the Royal Navy rather than The Army or RAF was because only the senior service remembered who the true enemy was.

My god....

Just when I thought you couldn't say anything that would make you sound even more imbecilic.....you manage to find a way!

😆

yeah, someone reckoned that, but it turns out that in reality we have mutual friends and we, well, you know, sort of speak the same language - plus luckily we have known each other for years, in fact the past we had to help my ex out of all sorts of messed up situations, so she knows just how untrustworthy my ex really is.

Sounds rather like your choice has been made out of not having a choice!

#lastchancesaloon

😀

have we also talked about the potential for no VAT on bikes and cycling components in order to promote sustainable transport options?

Are helmets still VAT free in the UK? No idea if any EU country has tried making other cycling kit VAT free, or low rated, or if there'd really be much of a fight put up by the EU or other member states if they did.

no VAT on bikes and cycling components

Are helmets still VAT free in the UK?

Given the ability to save income tax to buy a bike for a lot of people to commute on (which is widely used for frivolous off road bike that never see the works car park) I'm not sure that one is going to fly really.
If the reduced fuel costs, healthier lifestyles etc are not going to get you on the bike dropping VAT isn't going to is it.

The same report that the government tried to push back and back and back and back ?

Good thing if it happens.
In France you get a 200 euros grant to buy an electric bike. Even in a small town like mine, I see lots on my morning commute.

ninfan - Member
have we also talked about the potential for no VAT on bikes and cycling components in order to promote sustainable transport options?

Is that the one that's only being considered because the uk gov has been breaking EU emission levels

Don't worry that'll be ditched the minute we 'take back control'

I see that Darth Putin is upset that Brexit hasn't finished off the EU yet so he's being more overt in his efforts to help lepen....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/06/emmanuel-macron-targeted-by-hackers-on-eve-of-french-election

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of [b]obnoxiousness[/b]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-brexit-citizens-amnesty-three-million-european-uk-no-proof-of-residency-theresa-may-latest-a7721201.html

Good thing if it happens.
In France you get a 200 euros grant to buy an electric bike. Even in a small town like mine, I see lots on my morning commute.

Not entirely surprising given France has an even worse pollution problem than does the UK in terms of its major cities and currently being made worse on a daily basis by the Paris mayor.

The problem is diesel vehicles and the tricks the manufacturers have played

@kimbers by the way Macron has said the emails / datafiles are just "normal campaign business" which is exactly what Fillion said about hiring his wife for 10 years like all the other politicians do.

Macron is shrewd which is why one of is friends allegedly leaked the private Fillion information.

Also he definitely has offshore tax efficient investments of that I am 100% certain. Nothing illegal in that.

Enlighten us all Pigface ?

[general_rant]I'm still in shock at the less than thirty per cent turnout on Thursday and the resultant slide to the right - what the actual eff is wrong with this country that we're becoming so short-sighted and inward-looking, so desperate to through ourselves off this clifface of bullshit that is Brexit? I can remember my history saying back in 1987 that we were not far from becoming a third world country - I scoffed back then, but it's the way we're heading. [/general_rant]

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

So, the EU wants to make sure that the UK doesn't deny EU citizens living here their rights through overly onerous or kafkaesque application procedures… sounds wise, this government, and the PM in particular, has past/current form here.

Have you even read that Indy article or did you just stop at the IDS quote ??

With the UK government putting the Dartford crossing as a rural road so it is not included in air quality report, I am not surprised the pollution issue is bigger in France.
At least we are doing something about it.

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

Hang on.. Didn't the House of Lords recommend that the EU nationals in the UK were taken out of the equation prior to submitting article 50. I know there are arguments saying that it did not protect UK residents in the EU, but as many people also argue that it should be UK people in the UK that get priority the government could now be holding the high ground and have eliminated a time wasting negotiation that will result in the same outcome albeit for fewer people as many will be disillusioned and have left.

@Pondo, i think some forget how broke the UK was in the '70's and why it was forced to join the EU to survive.

Things go in cycles, take a look at Portugal for an example of a post imperial country to see the future.

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

What by demanding that citizens have the right to continue living where they live on the terms that applied when they made that choice? Or are you in favour of mass deportations?

[i]have we also talked about the potential for no VAT on bikes and cycling components in order to promote sustainable transport options? [/i]

Interesting Nifan, are you predicting the Tories are going to lose the GE then? 😀

Seems like the proposal put forward would save the UK a lot of time and money. Wasn't it reported that if all the EU immigrants applied for residency it would take something like 60 years to process the applications?
The current application form is something like 84 pages, and with supporting documentation is about 1.2 kg in weight. It also requires the applicant surrender their passport, not a copy, for up to 6 months currently. Hope a family member doesn't get ill, cos if you need that passport back, you start again.
Or you could, you know, just say **** it, and accept any EU citizen who had every right to be here anyway, with like a passport and three months payslips, and save yourself a whole lot of grief and money, never mind the humanist side of things.

jambalaya - Member
EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

Seems that the EU are asking for what you said May had already offered - or has she u-turned again? She wanders so much it is difficult to keep track of her offers, policies etc.

Anyway judging on the article it's IDS that is setting "a new level of obnoxiousness".
No surprise there would you say?

Or you could, you know, just say **** it, and accept any EU citizen who had every right to be here anyway, with like a passport and three months payslips, and save yourself a whole lot of grief and money, never mind the humanist side of things.

This could be applied to UK people in the EU although all the people who have holiday homes who currently get treated the same as a local would fall between the gaps. Also anyone with any aspirations to be able to retire in the sun or work abroad.... but hey no one will be retiring in the future just spending their lives servicing the robots that do the jobs we used to have...

@igm, no they are asking for permanent residency with no proof and for all (?) relatives to be entitled to come too.

I do get the point that the 85 page form with 5 years worth of travel details is a bit much however that's really none of the EU's business and if the EU agreed a suitable "deal" the form would be unnecessary.

As far as I am aware May is not offering Permanent residency, nor indeed should she. If you are here working you can stay whilst you are working, apply for PR or citizenship. If you are retired here and can support yoirself you can stay. If you don't meet those criteria then maybe you cannot stay, you have to apply. These sorts of tests are applied elsewhere in the world.

What by demanding that citizens have the right to continue living where they live on the terms that applied when they made that choice? Or are you in favour of mass deportations?

Things change, so basically no. Well when they came here the ECJ had jurisdiction, from April 2019 imo it should have none. When they came here they could claim benefits after 3 months, imo that should end - as per Germany no benefits until 5 years of work/taxes paid. When they came they had the right to stay forever, imo that should change.

If you are in the uk with a job or retired here or otherwise need no support, eg married the you can stay and apply for PR / citizenship or a long term visa (to be introdiced). That's what's done elsewhere. Thats my view.

So what you're saying is it's not clear what exactly May wants to offer, but the EU have at least put an offer forward.
I'll agree it's not clear and that the current UK system isn't fit for purpose.

However the main thing that we can tell from that article is that IDS is still a professionally outraged idiot.