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Sorry, I don't follow?Do we have the same interest rate as Sweden?
Sweden == Krona
UK == GBP
EU != Euro is the point
Every argument put forward for leaving the EU could be applied to the UK. Why don't the same people suggest breaking up the UK and going back to some old lines on the ground, you know, when William was great! Them were the days!
- The free movement of people around the UK should be stopped. All those Northerners, down south, stealing OUR jobs.
- We should come out of the single currency because the SE props up the rest of UK. The pound was alway a crazy idea and I told them it wouldn't work. Bloody freeloaders.
- UK parliament is undemocratic! I want my county back! I want to decide the law in Yorkshire, not those foreigners in London!
- Finally! Hampshire can negotiate trade deals with the rest of the wrold with out the meddling of the undemocratic UK! It's gunna be great!
etc. etc. There is no argument for leaving the EU which couldn't be applied to the Union. Where does it stop?
Whilst the EU has a single interest rate across such different economies the project will never work.
IT DOESN'T
etc. etc. There is no argument for leaving the EU which couldn't be applied to the Union. Where does it stop?
The only arguments that are logically consistent are nationalist ones. You don't want people in Brussels making our rules, because they are foreigners. They are 'THEM'. Except if you consider yourself European, then they are not 'THEM' any more, they are 'US'.
Scots and Welsh have had 'THEM' making the rules for centuries.
My mistake. The euro, not the EU.IT DOESN'T
Who will the government and press blaim for everything once we have left the EU?
My bets are on
1. English press blaiming Scotland.
2. Wales press blaiming English.
3. Scottish press blaiming English.
4. NI probably depends on nationalist Vs unionist
Who will the government and press blaim for everything once we have left the EU?
The poor and disabled.
There will still be a few foreigners left here for us to blame. The ones we haven't yet managed to drive away with our self-defeating jingoistic policies and atmosphere.
TheBrick - MemberWho will the government and press blaim for everything once we have left the EU?
Still the EU.
The Euro doesn't have the same interest rate, it doesn't have an interst rate because there are no Euro bonds and interest rates are fixed by central banks and private banking institutions.
Germany and Greece, same Euro, now check the interest rates in those two countries. And therein lies one of the problems. The poorest countries pay more for money which makes them poorer. And Germany still refuses Euro bonds.
Still the EU
yeah just look at May using brussles bureaucrats as enemies of the people yesterday
jingoism is a powerful tool
EU festering wound
&
Why does it not apply to people like Farage and other educated politicians who dislike the EU?
I'm sure they will when the coffee is smelt, but for now the blinkers are on & the blame ie being proportioned elsewhere..
#blamegame..
🙄
Ok. There is a single euro rate set by the ECB, but I get your point regarding the credit risk spread between Greece and Germany though.The Euro doesn't have the same interest rate, it doesn't have an interst rate because there are no Euro bonds and interest rates are fixed by central banks and private banking institutions.Germany and Greece, same Euro, now check the interest rates in those two countries. And therein lies one of the problems. The poorest countries pay more for money which makes them poorer. And Germany still refuses Euro bonds.
An interesting point and one that I have read conflicting views on is whether Germany benefit from being in a currency with weaker members as it keeps the curreny weak. If it still had the DEM would it be strong and therefore make it's exports more expensive?
The euro, not the EU
Which we weren't in.
Pretty big thing that people seem to keep forgetting.
If it still had the DEM would it be strong and therefore make it's exports more expensive?
Yes.
Meanwhile some countries suffer because they need to devalue their currency but can't as Germany (and others) pull it up.
etc. etc. There is no argument for leaving the EU which couldn't be applied to the Union. Where does it stop?
To me part of the issue is this, power IMO should be devolved to the lowest appropriate level. There are things that are best handled by a street or by a ward, and they should have the power to decide on parks, benches, parking etc etc. Then there are things that are better at a higher level schools, doctors, and as you go up the tree you get to defence to environmental standards etc.
Those calling for a break up are simply demand more paperwork, more red tape. The bonfire of regulations won't happen, the regulations will be those that benefit those writing them and there will be no oversite.
No responce to my calculation that €100bn to cover our "budget liabilities till 2020" is £510m+ per week ? (Note I excluded the MEP pensions from my calc). Seems the EU is a lot more expensive than even Leave said ?
The Oil industry isn't on its knees its simply adjusted investment downwards based on the oil price, at 100 there is more oil worth extracting than at 55. It's just like banking responsing to the new regulations making numerous business lines unattractive hence the substantial layoffs.
Nothing jingoistic about standing up for Britain, that's the PMs job and a clear point of differentiation with Corbyn who has spent his life voting against the Government including the Labour Government. Junker and FAZ's intervention is a massive boost to May who was already riding high on a wave of support
May's voting record is far more pro-EU than Corbyn's.
I don't think that makes either of them more or less likely to "stand up for Britain", because it all depends on whether you consider the EU to be of benefit to Britain, no?
As for ongoing payments and outstanding obligations/liabilities on withdrawal not being the same thing, anyone with a mortgage probably understands that.
power IMO should be devolved to the lowest appropriate level
Quite. And environmental legislation that potentially costs businesses but benefits the whole planet should clearly be made planet-wide. Well, we don't have a planet-wide legislature, so the EU is the next best thing.
No response to my calculation that €100bn to cover our "budget liabilities till 2020" is £510m+ per week ? (Note I excluded the MEP pensions from my calc). Seems the EU is a lot more expensive than even Leave said ?
It is worrying that a team of senior politicians and staff on the leave team did not have a good grasp on the level of involvement/integration that the UK currently has with the EU?
Is that what you are looking for? If those numbers we misunderstood that badly by the people tasked with balancing our budgets it is certainly a worry to me...
No response to my calculation that....
[img] 
[/img]
?
grumpysculler - MemberYes.
Meanwhile some countries suffer because they need to devalue their currency but can't as Germany (and others) pull it up.
No mate. We learned from 90's Finland that don't devalue your currency. It is sure way to get mass bankruptcy. That one bad decision still affects our economical situation, so not a good thing. Even those politics who made that decision agrees that it was a huge mistake.
Anyway, as a continental European i think that EU works very well. It has made the whole Europe more stable and strong (heh hehee) and there are no more really poor countries anymore. I'm sad because of brexit and i'm little surprised how hostile some of the posters are. I'm not talking about this forum, but other one (car discussion forum). Maybe there are more hill billies or so? 😀
So tell me, who exactly wants to leave EU? I know that at least London, NI and Scotland are pro-EU. Genuine question.
This forum is broadly quite liberal/left-leaning and dare I say more cultured (!) than average. 'Petrol-heads' tend more towards reading/believing The Sun/Daily Mail's take on the world. Massive generalisations but with quite a lot of truth in them.
I mostly agree with your take on the EU and want to stay, as do most (mostly well-educated/travelled) people I know. I'm in northern England.
Interesting.
Petrolheads vs cyclists = might is right vs let's work it out?
Petrolheads - sit in their little boxes, the world moves around them, amplifying their own status with a touch of the right foot. Status from what you have.
Cyclists - obliged to move through the world, take notice, adapt and integrate with it. Power is directly related to effort put in. Status from what you can do and how you interrelate.
Welsh and European remainer here.
Scots, British and European, living in northern England, well educated, possibly intelligent, fairly affluent, liberal and centre left remainer.
Like cars, particularly open tops, love bikes, cameras, and tools.
Make of that what you will.
I'll be ok whatever happens - that's part of who I am.
been having a think about the idea of negotiations breaking down. and haven't really heard any comments.
Obviously WTO for trade, but what about air travel, or nuclear fuel, medicines, etc, those things that are currently controlled by pan european bodies.
Also as our Trade agreements with Norway, Swiss etc are through the EU, what happens???? Are there negotiations going on now setting up parallel bodies to cover these agencies?????
I loath the crass arrogance, innate sense of superiority and entitlement of the Tories with every fibre of my being. Specifically because of what they uncaringly did to the North of England during the 80's and 90's
But this present shower of *s make Fatcha and chums look like the salvation army.
Their arrogant, confrontational and obnoxious attitude going into this whole process makes me fear the very worst for the outcome. And I'm in absolutely no doubt that exactly the same people who got screwed by the last Tory government are about to be well and truly *ed over by the present catastrophic actions of this one too. I'm also in no doubt that the same people who did very nicely thank you very much last time around will come out of it smelling of roses too, with their power and wealth massively increased, and **** the rest of us!
Something to look forward too eh? 😥
Nothing jingoistic about standing up for Britain
What exactly are you (or the PM) standing up against?
Nothing jingoistic about standing up for Britain
Yes, I agree.
It's exactly how us Remainers feel too.
What exactly are you (or the PM) standing up against?
Specifically a leaked story to the FAZ designed to embarrass the PM and influence the election, secondly the fanciful "exit payment" nonsense from the EU
As for trade agreements with Switzerland and Norway they are both have a big trade surplus with the UK, they will be very keen to try and replicate their current deals. The question for us is whether we want to get a better deal with them than we have already.
Their arrogant, confrontational and obnoxious attitude
@binners you are describing the EU. Read TM's letter, it could not be more open and positive. Look at the EU's responce to our desire to sort EU/UK citizens rights by June - not possible they say 😯 Corbyn thinks its possible immediately he wins the GE, so how come its so difficult for the EU ?
designed
There was no design. She and Davies managed to embarrass themselves all by themselves. Losing control, and Brexiteers are showing every sign that they are.
In short then: we're standing up against foreigners and their dastardly ways.
But that's definitely not jingoistic. 😕
lol at all the Leave 'snowflakes' being 'triggered' by the EU. Will Britain be a 'safe space' once we've left? 😉
Nothing jingoistic about standing up for Britain
Well - standing up for Britain when you could have been standing up for Europe - yes, a little jingoistic.
Mays standing up for what- Her inability to negotiate?
Laughably ironic considering how leaky the Brexiteers of the Tory party are briefing against Hammond or anyone daring to suggest Brexits actually a bit of a stupid idea.
She's pandered to the xenophobes ever since she got the job, who can forget the glory days of 2016, judges were enemies of the people, employers of foreign workers to be named and shamed, schools to report immigrant children.....
.... Maybot is to cowed by the right wing press and the far right of her own party/ukip
She's just too weak to stand up to them so she pulls out the common enemy card.... definitely weak
Huffington Post's Piece on Brexit and Ireland's Approach
The EU is keen to show a united front going into the negotiations, but you don’t have to look too hard for cracks to appear. One country which seems to willing to dampen down the rhetoric and act as a friend to the UK is Ireland.
The Irish Government’s chief whip Regina Doherty described the leak of the May/Juncker dinner as “not helpful” and setting the “wrong tone”.
The only country to share a land border with the UK published its own approach to the Brexit talks this week, and deviated from the Brussels line that there should be no trade talks until the bill is paid.
“In accordance with the phased approach agreed in the EU Negotiation Guidelines, it is therefore likely, once sufficient progress is being made in the withdrawal negotiations, that discussions will then begin in parallel on the scope and shape of the EU’s future relationship with the UK,” reads the document.
Ireland is keen to get a trade deal done and dusted with the UK as soon as possible, as, according to the British Irish Chamber of Commerce, business between the two countries supports 400,000 jobs and generates 60billion.
And far from wishing to punish the UK’s lucrative financial sector – which could drive business to Dublin – the Irish Government recognises that as was as “opportunities in financial services arising from Brexit there are also risks.”
The Irish Government will strive to “maximise any opportunities that might arise” from Brexit, but the tone of the report is very much one of more-of-the-same than slash-and-burn.
I have to say the prospect of Junker's leak backfiring spectacularly to deliver an even larger Tory majority seems to be getting under the skin of some of you Remainers.
A very good friend of mine and strident Remainer has totally switched over Junker's behaviour, he is now re-posting Brexit Central posts on Facebook with pro-Leave views of his own 8)
The Irish view of Brexit....
Well dunno about anyone else but I'll take jambalaya's (probably made-up) mate on Facebook over the Tory's 10 point drop in the polls as evidence of public opinion.
Seems legit.
Funny that, Ireland is one of the countries against which you're particularly bigoted, having described it as "primitve" and "backward" in the past. But hey, you found something supporting your opinion. So, what's this? You're softening your previous standpoint on Ireland?
A very good friend of mine
By his friends, so shall ye judge him.
Well dunno about anyone else but I'll take jambalaya's (probably made-up) mate on Facebook over the Tory's 10 point drop in the polls as evidence of public opinion.
Seems legit.
F it....
I'm sold..!
EU has been clear and the Ireland piece backs it up, one sufficient progress has been made.
DD, I was born in England, and happen to have an Irish name. I have experienced a certain side of the English character, a side i hoped was dead and buried. Sadly it seems i was wrong.
There is an attitude all too common amongst certain sectors of society, an attitude that is being given room to grow again.
Jamba - I don't know if you realise but reasonably affluent and fairly southern (when in Britain) as you are, older rather than younger with all the skewed benefits that entails, and with a good sense of entitlement that keeps coming out, a lot of people (including most northern Brexies) see you and your ilk as the problem, not the solution.
They may well extend that view to me - but at least I act in their interests not just my own.
[i] molgrips - Member [/i]
Nothing jingoistic about standing up for Britain
[i]Well - standing up for Britain when you could have been standing up for Europe - yes, a little jingoistic.[/i]
😆
So a European, standing up for Europe would be, patriotic?
But a Britain standing up for Britain, is "jingoistic".
Another text book example of the intellectually inept left, resorting to slandering those who do not share their ideals.
So, that's really going to assist with the plan to bring the unwashed with you.
Again, the left find it easier to stigmatize and deride those who do not agree with them as "jingoistic". Rather than to really engage.
Go you 😉
stay classy brexies !
do feel free to keep posting up regular updates on THM 😉A very good friend of mine and strident Remainer has totally switched over Junker's behaviour, he is now re-posting Brexit Central posts on Facebook with pro-Leave views of his own
boom-tish!
when pointing out when someone is intellectually inept do be careful to make sure you have understood the difference between slander [ spoken] and libel[ written] as this simple error will somewhat weaken your position on the intellectual high groundAnother text book example of the intellectually inept left, resorting to slandering those who do not share their ideals.
But a Britain standing up for Britain, is "jingoistic".
Depends how you stand up for your country, doesn't it.
May's rant outside no 10 yesterday was jingoistic, for sure.
Text book example in fact.
molgrips - Member
So a European, standing up for Europe would be, patriotic?
But a Britain standing up for Britain, is "jingoistic".
Sounds stupid anyway. May's word were badly chosen (intentionally?) and way too errr.... stupid.
Anyhooo, where is UK going now? No go for integration to the rest of Europe, so which is the direction what UK govt does take?
Well dunno about anyone else but I'll take jambalaya's (probably made-up) mate on Facebook over the Tory's 10 point drop in the polls as evidence of public opinion.
My ex-neighbour, husband of the Professor (ex-nurse) who was awarded the CBE for services for the care of the elderly.
I have seen no such opinion polls but the to be ho est I pay little attention to them, the General Election results will bear me out, it's looking to me more like a 125 seat majority than 100 now
I assumed it was May that leaked the story so she could be outraged - it's her style
[img]the General Election results will bear me out, it's looking to me more like a 125 seat majority than 100 now
[/img]
Nothing beautiful about Jamba's prediction, but it's probably a very good one.
A large Tory majority seems more likely as the fortress Britain rhetoric ramps up.
Nothing beautiful about Jamba's prediction, but it's probably a very good one.
A large Tory majority seems more likely as the fortress Britain rhetoric ramps up.
And with it kiss good bye to the NHS, any traces of the welfare state, anything that might impede big business from making money, worker rights etc.
And with it kiss good bye to the NHS, any traces of the welfare state, anything that might impede big business from making money, worker rights etc.
S'funny, that's what the lefties said would happen at the last election, and the one before that, and the one before that, but it turns out that bar some minor tinkering round the edges all those things are as big as they were before, and the government is spending more than ever on them
The whole thing is turning very much "boy who cried wolf"
all those things are as big as they were before, and the government is spending more than ever on them
yes, of course they are.
Number of three-day emergency food supplies given by Trussell Trust foodbanks:
[img] 
[/img]
Primary Reasons for Referral to Trussell Trust foodbanks:
[img] 
[/img]
-- https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and-blog/latest-stats/end-year-stats/
S'funny, that's what the lefties said would happen at the last election
as deluded as ever ninfan
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/25/record-level-cancelled-urgent-operations-nhs-england/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/homelessness-record-levels-numbers-rise-9688811
In this case I take no pleasure in proving you completely wrong
Perhaps if they didnt get free food they would stop breeding & get off their backsides & do better for themselves.
Perhaps if there was no healthcare people would choose not to get sick
More seriously though, perhaps if we had a properly functional welfare state and big companies paid properly instead of expecting the taxpayer to subsidise their wage bill we wouldn't need food banks.
oldtalent - Member
Perhaps if they didnt get free food they would stop breeding & get off their backsides & do better for themselves.
especially the 436,938 children, time for the workhouse to be brought back !
Well there are complex reasons why people visit food banks. Apparently.
Like hungry?
It's fairly obvious that the lack of affordable housing, minimum wage and inflation currently provide problems for poor folks. It is easy to say "get off your arse" and there is no shortage of minimum wage jobs in most parts of the UK but the next 10 years is going to deliver a bigger employment change via automation and these people lack the education and motivation to retrain. We have a hotel chain client who are already deploying a five year automation plan to its 35 UK hotels, this is partially to do with Brexit and a fear they will loose their EU staff.
The employment model will change beyond recognition and the highly skilled/educated will do well the rest will be consigned to history.
The Tories understand this and they know that reducing the average benefit bill per person is critical for the long term as it's is highly likley that "proper" unemployment is going to increase.
The reality of a crap brexit (which it will be) is the UK has very little it can do to survive and investment in automation (both creating and using) is the only way the economy can be maintained - the misery is that around 20% of the workforce (maybe more) will not be required.
Anyone who doubts this needs to think about -
Driverless cars/taxis/delivery vans/buses/trains/trams/metro
All warehouse functions
90% of Admin
Hotels
Manufacturing
All online services
Inland revenue etc
Accountancy
Financial services
Agriculture
Food processors
Retail
Ports
Airports
The employment model will change beyond recognition and the highly skilled/educated will do well the rest will be consigned to history.The Tories understand this and they know that reducing the average benefit bill per person is critical for the long term as it's is highly likley that "proper" unemployment is going to increase.
It's interesting - there was a good programme on radio 4 last night discussing the French economy, and how productivity per employee hour was higher, but employment was lower (French youth unemployment figures being particularly dire). A lot of this was put down to franch companies and farmers previously investing more heavily in automation due to the higher costs of employment (wages plus taxes), however suggesting that the real fear was now that even those big companies were looking to relocate to Poland and Romania (see the recent whirlpool issue issie i. The French elections)
They also discussed how French social & welfare bill was highest in Europe
Perhaps if they didnt get free food they would stop breeding & get off their backsides & do better for themselves.
[i]*Not sure if sarcastic trolling or just a heartless monster*[/i]
Poe's Law.
Just in case, why not read some of these stories and tell us which people you'd have left to starve?
https://www.trusselltrust.org/what-we-do/real-stories/
It is easy to say "get off your arse" and there is no shortage of minimum wage jobs in most parts of the UK
Looking at the Trussel Trust figures, "Unemployment" is given as the primary reason for referral in just 0.03% of cases.
"Low income", which presumably includes some of those minimum wage jobs, is the main reason at 26.45% of referrals.
While it is always going to be difficult to get the truth of what is actually said by people behind closed doors the recent "event" between Junker and May along with the Guardian article Varoufakis [url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may ]Greek finance issues[/url] wrote highlights to me one of the reasons we are better out of the EU than in it.
The rumour was true though. May is definitely delusional.
May is insistent on opacity when the EU have made it clear there will be full transparancy.
Forget "behind closed doors", she has no chance of getting away with that.
Perhaps if they didnt get free food they would stop breeding & get off their backsides & do better for themselves.*Not sure if sarcastic trolling or just a heartless monster*
Poe's Law.
Just in case, why not read some of these stories and tell us which people you'd have left to starve?
https://www.trusselltrust.org/what-we-do/real-stories/It is easy to say "get off your arse" and there is no shortage of minimum wage jobs in most parts of the UK
Looking at the Trussel Trust figures, "Unemployment" is given as the primary reason for referral in just 0.03% of cases.
"Low income", which presumably includes some of those minimum wage jobs, is the main reason at 26.45% of referrals.
Yes, and low income people does pay the most biggest bill of the brexit. Inflation in UK is already like 2.3% and going up. Minimum salary is not going to be enough in the future. I was surprised how much there are really poor people living in a UK.
Bikingcatastrophe - MemberWhile it is always going to be difficult to get the truth of what is actually said by people behind closed doors the recent "event" between Junker and May along with the Guardian article Varoufakis Greek finance issues wrote highlights to me one of the reasons we are better out of the EU than in it.
TBH the handling of the Greek crisis was the one thing that really made me want to go "**** the EU". Didn't satisfy anyone and never really attempted to, caused yet more unneccesary harm to Greece, all it did was kick the can further down the road. Watching the troika at work, you just think these people shouldn't be left in charge of a corner shop. Having Greece turn up at meetings saying "here's the best way through this that we can see" and be told "Oh no, you just don't understand the rules, we're not looking for a solution that works, we're looking for a punitive outcome that just puts things off for a few more years" Of course, that's a eurozone issue rather than an EU issue but the underpinnings and the institutions are pretty inseperable.
In the end, I settled on not liking the EU much at all but still seeing it as a net positive but I think it unsettled a lot of previously europhile people and especially a lot of passionate, black-or-white people.
highlights to me one of the reasons we are better out of the EU than in it.
so quitting is better than trying to improve something we have benefited massively from?
our calibre of MEPs -kippers have the worst attendance record of the whole parliament- are so low that some of our lack of influence is our own fault
TBH the handling of the Greek crisis was the one thing that really made me want to go "**** the EU".
**** the EU or just **** those people? The EU as a concept is much bigger than whoever's in charge at any moment, or even its current political landscape. That's the big issue here I think. The EU is far more than its current implementation.
molgrips - Member* the EU or just * those people? The EU as a concept is much bigger than whoever's in charge at any moment,
It wasn't just about individuals though.
Pretty good analysis of the "Brexit Bill" makes a few points I have been making
1) EU needs the headlines ti be about how much money it will (cough) be receiving as the alternative conversation is about how much extra some mber states will be paying and/or how much less others will be receiving
2) Preposterousness of the bill is clear when you realise by the same logic should Poland leave the EU they would receive a €100bn and the Greeks €50bn 🙂
3) European Investment Bank is a can of worms and potential back door route for the EU to ensnare the UK in future eurozone bailouts. Hence my desire to see us withdraw from it and have it leave London.
[url= http://brexitcentral.com/eu-obsession-britain-money-exposes-vulnerability/ ]Linky[/url]
Interesting, except that the headlines about the amount the UK could owe come from the UK press. EU27 countries [b]have[/b] been discussing/arguing about their additional payments. That piece is written by someone who ignores what is actually happening in other countries, and then blames them for that ignorance.
[i]
[ latest silly high figure about the UK's outstanding contribution came from the FT ]
[ one of the factors they used to get the new high figure was insistence by member states that they won't plug the gap ][/i]
so quitting is better than trying to improve something we have benefited massively from?
You think its better that we just stay together, unhappy, in a loveless relationship, just for the sake of the kids?
might be better than giving the missus the kids and the house and moving in to a bedsit.