[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The UK you say. Nope never heard of you, now back in your box

Could there be a more fitting foreign secretary to deliver us our place in international irrelevance?

Its tragic and funny in equal measure. The cartoonish, bumbling [s]cockwomble[/s] representative of the new 'Global Britain' told to sit down and STFU first by America, then the EU.

Its all panning out great, this role as a newly unconstrained international diplomatic and economic superpower, isn't it?

now I'm all for SI units for many things but it would help if someone could decide which units were to be used for air or gas volumes. There are 5 units SI/metric in use for air or gas that we come across from around the world. Then we get into the system resistance units, its all a bit irritating really when you were trained by old guys int 70's.

In Yorkshire we are still using cfm n inches w.g. (its cheaper) as every Brexiteer will be fully aware.

I imagine measuring gas volume must be very important in Yorkshire, since it produces so much hot air.

True enough on the useless hot air. It will become important though with our fracking based oil supplies. You none Yorkshire moaners will submit to our oil power, bit like our wool power of 400 years previous. Still they'll be those that will moan but Yorkshire will be itself.

We be needing your water too, so you're staying. Scotland can go, can't drink oil.

or as a forward thinking globalised economy we can adopt the Kelvin as our standard measure of temperature.

I'd like that, but for real life temperature ranges, for most tasks, I accept Celsius works just fine.

The reason for the £35k limit is to exponentially increase the thickness of the glass ceiling for poor folks.

mattjg - Member

Scotland can go, can't drink oil.

Aye, Scotland is famous for not having enough water.

Water of rain, water of life...

Aye, Scotland is famous for not having enough water.

Doh.

Just read that EU money helped save the Transporter Bridge in Newport, I wonder how many landmarks, places of interest have been saved by that kind of assistance.

Kiss that goodbye then.

Just read that EU money helped save the Transporter Bridge in Newport, I wonder how many landmarks, places of interest have been saved by that kind of assistance.

Kiss that goodbye then.

You're still not understanding that "net contributor" thing then?

Go and multiply with yourself troll boy

You're still not understanding that "net contributor" thing then?

[i]The reason for the £35k limit is to exponentially increase the thickness of the glass ceiling for poor folks. [/I]

Ok, so no one is able to give an opinion of why the £35k (starting) limit is good?

I did think that maybe it's a cut-off when you're paying more in than taking out, but that doesn't really fit with the Govts' message regarding bringing in skills we need for business/Govt as fruit pickers and the like will earn nowhere near that.

C'mon Jamba/Ninfin, lets hear the Leavers view?

b r - poor immigrants are thieves and crims. Rich ones are fine and most likely white/western european.

just saying

Is that 35k limit going to be policy? Or is it just a Boris type made up piece of crap? Going to make getting in nurses or teachers almost impossible.

Going to make getting in nurses or teachers almost impossible.

Happening anyway. Deliberately.

= :87(

Hospitals already having to pay a big fat fee for the audacity of having to fill essential posts with non-EU staff… expect more of the same jingoistic nonsense for staff from all countries in a few years.

non-EU staff

Boris making a fool of himself again:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/11/boris-johnson-insists-russia-could-still-face-sanctions-colleagues/

He is now persona non grata with Russia, they won't take him seriously. He has blown his bridges with them by cancelling [a visit] for the third time.

Don't worry though Boris, Theresa is completely behind you:

Downing Street, however, insisted that Mr Johnson had Mrs May's full support.

Also, you need to be rich to keep your right to a family life now as well, if your partner happens to born elsewhere. Who really thinks that this will get better not worse from here on in? Only the deluded. Even the poor vote in huge numbers to make migration a rich person's privilege only.

Boris making a fool of himself again

It just looks like yet another example of the total fantasy world the Brexiteers seem to inhabit. In Boris's head Britain is a Global Superpower, and everyone is looking towards him to sort out the worlds problems.

And as with most of the delusional bullshit they've been spouting for the last year, no amount of reality, or evidence that uncomfortably contradicts their la-la-land vision, is allowed to intrude on proceedings

Anyone else cringing when the camera pans across the G7 foreign ministers and then you realise that Boris is there for us?

I understand the strategy that the ritual humiliation of Boris is aimed at neutering his Prime Ministerial ambitions, but the Maybot shouldn't leave him festering for too long.

It seems like everything that has happened in the last year, especially the whole Brexit catastrophe, has been dictated by internal squabbles within the Tory party, rather than the needs of the country.

In the total absense of an opposition, I can't see that changing any time soon.

Mind you... its all fun and games for them and their mates, isn't it? As with the banking crisis, they won't be the ones paying the price. Quite the opposite. Its a nice opportunity. And to hell with the little people. Ker-ching!

has been dictated by internal squabbles within the Tory party, rather than the needs of the country.

I dunno helping nudge from Putin's bots and the odd [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-interference-brexit-highly-probable-referendum-hacking-putin-a7472706.html ]Brexit[/url] vote [url= http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39564289 ]hack[/url] and things have gone swimmingly, Russia's strongest critic ( yet biggest money launderer 😯 ) out of the EU our reputation in tatters and boom, no sanctions for Pooty (if only he could be sure he backed the right one in America)

but the Maybot shouldn't leave him festering for too long.

In other irony-news......

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/12/boris-johnson-is-a-liability-for-britain-says-john-mcdonnell ]Boris Johnson is a liability for Britain says John Mcdonnell[/url]

While this is a statement of fact, just remind us which revered political heavyweight you'd be putting in place to regain this country's respect on the world stage, John? 😆

dissonance - Member

Why not? He will be a handy target to blame as she dives away from the mess.

Aye, because the prime minister's job is to avoid blame, not to run the country

just remind us John which political heavyweight you'd be putting in place to regain this country's respect on the world stage?

Well, she's good on her flag identification.

[img] [/img]

Just been having some dealings with my French bank. It reminds me of what I already knew, that French banks are absolutely and utterly incompetent (*). Anyone moving a financial operation from London to Paris would need their head examining. (Yes,I know - I just agreed with jamba)

(* e.g. I have been fruitlessly trying for over 18 months to get them to update my address so that the postman can deliver my credit card. It's not rocket surgery FFS)

If the address is not French I'm not surprised DrJ. It was getting so complicated we ended up with two accounts. An English one with a French address and a French one with a French address. One credit card for each country both delivered to France. HSBC seem to be better at this sort of thing than others but it still took about six months by the time both countries were satisfied with the paperwork (and a substantial sum on deposit for them to be interested at all). It's not a matter of competence but rules and you may be breaking one of the new anti-money laundering codes depending on where you make your money, pay your tax etc..

DrJ if you like you can see it as for once I am agreeing with you 🙂

I have worked for 3 Germans Banks but would not work for a French one. My French wife refused to work for a French Bank and chose an American one based in Paris. The French system including regulatory ebvironment is not one a foreign bank would chose for anything other than French business.

In other news Insaw today the Office for National Statistics published its first ever study into unemployment inc those economically inactive amongst EU nationals in the UK. What really stunned me was that it was their first, ie never done before !!

[i]C'mon Jamba/Ninfin, lets hear the Leavers view? [/I]

Still waiting...

Sounds to me like a soundbite with no substance, #typicalbrexitbollocks

£35k. Didn't see the earlier post. I think you've answered it yourself £35k is the income level where you pay enough tax to pay for the services you use. Anyway migrants earning less than that should be allowed on short term visas and/or their employers have to provide healthcare for example.

My salary was one key factor in getting a work visa for US and Singapore. Perfectly normal part of controlled imigration policies

What Jamba is saying br is you have to remember that the rules were only meant to apply to the little people.
And the best way to judge someone's worth is by their wallet.

Jamba:

What about the rather interesting points that

A) only allowing immigrants earning 35k only serves to strengthen the glass ceiling for UK residents earning less than 35k

B) a lot of the skills shortages we have are for jobs that pay less than 35k.

GrahamS - he's not daft he knows that. He's trolling again.

Meanwhile wages are on the cusp of falling again in real terms as inflation brought on by the £ collapse brought on by Brexit starts to bite.
Now there are arguments that inflation was too low - tell that to those whose wage is still lower than prior to the banking induced depression (and the half-arsed response in Cameron's first government - they killed the recovery Brown had initiated if you recall)

Corbyn will say today how Brexit will allow Labour to [b]upgrade[/b] the British economy

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn_uk_58ef353ce4b0bb9638e16603?utm_hp_ref=uk

I think it is reasonable to question why a skilled job with a shortage of workers only commands a 35k salary.

GrahamS - he's not daft he knows that. He's trolling again.

Jamby really does think if you are rich you should have more than poor people in terms of basic freedoms.

Corbyn will say today how Brexit will allow Labour to upgrade the British economy

DOes this mean he is no longer old , a poor leader and with no vision?

One of your better pieces of satire/hypocrisy

Sorry my mistake I see why you gave it such a ringing endorsement

Under the plan, all companies bidding for government contracts would be required to give full trade union recognition to their workforce and move towards a ratio of 20-1 between their highest and lowest paid staff.

In other news Insaw today the Office for National Statistics published its first ever study into unemployment inc those economically inactive amongst EU nationals in the UK. What really stunned me was that it was their first, ie never done before !!

Why is it important? Why do we need to weed out those pesky foreigners?

£35k is the income level where you pay enough tax to pay for the services you use.

But even if you are earning less than that you are still contributing to the economy, aren't you? Most factory workers earn less than that but without them there's no manufacturing and our entire industry sector would collapse.

So just because we fund them doesn't mean they aren't contributing. Surely this is basic economics.

"I think it is reasonable to question why a skilled job with a shortage of workers only commands a 35k salary.."

International competition can be a factor. If wages rise jobs move. In due course the jobs move to the workers instead of the workers moving to the jobs. That's one of the flaws in thinking stopping FOM is going to fix the issue of immigration based wage competition.

molgrips - Member

So just because we fund them doesn't mean they aren't contributing. Surely this is basic economics.

Absolutely- the income level where your personal tax pays for the services you use is irrelevant. It's something people like to talk about because it suits the agenda that "most people are takers" but your value to society and to the economy simply isn't measured by the tax you pay.

That aside, it also falls down completely with immigrants because the lifelong services cost just doesn't apply to people who don't spend their whole lives here.

Yeah but leavers see it as a zero sum game. They don't understand how being a net payee can possibly still be a beneficial situation. They don't get for instance that off the economy contracts due to leaving that the fabled £350mm no longer exists to spend.

"I think it is reasonable to question why a skilled job with a shortage of workers only commands a 35k salary.."

More basic economics:

The price of a given product creates demand i.e. a market for that product. But the price of that product depends on the costs to produce, and that depends in part on the wages of the workers.

So whilst demand > supply increases wages, they can only go up so far before demand starts to go down due to higher prices.

So in many industries there is a demand for workers *at low wages*. E.g. if fruit picking paid £35k a year, fruit would cost a fortune, no-one would buy it then there'd be no-one planting it and no fruit to pick.

Where's THM with some jargon?

Do we need nurses? How many earn over £35k?

we're screwed.

This is before you look at different regions of the country.

Picking an arbitary number is a very stupid way to run an immigration policy.

Also have to consider that by devaluing the pound by c20% you have cut the wages of potential immigrants.

Presumably the rules can be juggled to meet the needs of certain employers or roles.

Your devaluation point is valid.

In other news Insaw today the Office for National Statistics published its first ever study into unemployment inc those economically inactive amongst EU nationals in the UK.

Got a Linky?

I'm looking at the [url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/apr2017#economic-inactivity ]Economic Inactivity section of the April 2017 UK Labour Market bulletin[/url] and it doesn't break it down for EU nationals.

It should also be noted that the main cause of "economic inactivity" is being a student

[img] [/img]

which also happens to be a major reason for people coming to the UK ([url=file:///C:/Users/gbstegra1/Downloads/internationalstudentmigrationtcm77431150.pdf]192,000 student immigrants a year[/url])

Interesting to note that the 35K ceiling will also exclude all but the most senior post-doctoral researchers (i.e. researchers with a PhD but not yet running their own research labs).

Pay scales for these core roles is ~27K starting salary rising to 38K max and it is very, very difficult to obtain top end salaries on grant applications unless you have an existing named member of staff who is essential to the work.

More good news for science in the UK................

What a silly little country.

Where's THM with some jargon?

THM has been away for a while. In fact the beginning of his absence coincided with the dailies publishing some rather saucy pictures of Nicola Sturgeon. I can only imagine he has been hospitalised with life-threatening fapping-related injuries. Get well soon, hurty 🙂

i.e. researchers with a PhD

Do you need them to make Jam???

*my Grand-father was a food scientist before he retired, so i guess it helps!....

THM has been away for a while. In fact the beginning of his absence coincided with the dailies publishing some rather saucy pictures of Nicola Sturgeon. I can only imagine he has been hospitalised with life-threatening fapping-related injuries. Get well soon, hurty

Tbf, he was needing some new material, his Salmond grumble was getting a bit dog eared....

FWIW, it seems to be an extension of the existing policy, which does have some exemptions for researchers and has the capacity to create exemptions as needed for critical industry. Of course, absolutely everyone who employs an immigrant for under £35000 will campaign to be an exemption. And the policy will be overseen by Amber Rudd and Theresa May, professional xenophobes.

So who knows what that'll lead to. It could end up a fairly empty shell with countless exemptions, or it could be a brick wall with the false promise of exemptions to make it seem less brutal.

FT reports today that British firms are being effectively excluded from EU space projects. It's all working out beautifully.

TMH has just started a new job, he told me he's got better things to do. I'll see him for a ride when I am fit enough.

VISAs should be issued to those who can make a necessary contribution be they fruit pickers or post-doctorate researchers.

Did you see the idiot German politician calling for a second Referendum ? He needs to focus on his own countries problems which do in fairness inckude finding £5bn extra for EU contributions or telling the other member states where their payouts are goung to get cut.

We should have left the EU decades ago. April 2019 can't come fast enough.

jamba: you may have missed my post on previous page (last post on the page syndrome). Do you have a linky for the ONS study you were describing regarding economic inactivity in EU nationals? I couldn't find anything obvious on the ONS site.

VISAs should be issued to those who can make a necessary contribution be they fruit pickers or post-doctorate researchers.

1) How do we define necessary?

2) Issuing visas based on existing demand excludes people who might come here to actually start businesses, doesn't it? Many EU migrants have done just that, and their successful economic activity creates growth. We'd lose that contribution.

3) Would visas be tied to jobs? So if the job ends you have to go home? People cannot build a life on those terms so you will lose a lot of skills and workers as they head elsewhere to settle. This will be economically damaging don't you think?

We should have left the EU decades ago. April 2019 can't come fast enough.

back in the '70s? when the UK economy was on its knees? The EU will be fine, the UK won't. you can talk about a global economy but the vote is simply about kick out the coloured people for many. I for one do not want to return to a time when calling people paddy's was acceptable.

Why would jambs want to link to stats that exposed brexiters and vote leave as xenophobic liars again...?
https://infacts.org/migration-stats-bust-myths-skills-welfare/

We should have left the EU decades ago.

The "Department for exiting the EU" just ****ted a lovely graph showing how trade started to rise massively shortly after we joined the EU in the 70s. Not sure that was quite the point they were trying to make, mind you...

[url= https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/852534216025939968/photo/1 ]here it is[/url]

In the 70's we where were totally F'd by Labour. Also we joined the EEC, a "Common Market" or thats what we where told and definitely not a political Union project. As per Twitter commentsvtard was rising before we joined and has accelerated as our share of exports to the EU has declined.

Anyway @b r I answered your question, thereafter there was much moaning from Remainers. Predictably whuch is why I didn't bother to read it the first time.

Jamba - you can't help yourself can you?

In the 70's we where were totally F'd by Labour.

Also have a look at the unemployment stats from the 70s until now. Generally every time the Tories got in unemployment rocketed.

Interestingly the last few years deviate from that. Even with (Brexy press factoid warning) 11% of the workforce from foreign climes, unemployment is at 4.7% - historically that's regarded as full employment.

This country desperately needs immigration. Probably more of it.

Say what? Trade was ****ed by labour but was also already rising? Yeah, that makes total sense.

Going to answer my questions Jam re visas?

Molgrips I didn't see any question, certainly not one I had not already answered in a general post.

Having an income threshold and using it as [b]one key factor[/b] in visa applications is very common in most countries controlled immigration systems. The rest of the world seems to manage quite well without the EU's Freedom of Movement. So well none of them are seeking to emulate it.

We have many unemployed people in the UK and many trapped in low paying jobs by uncontrolled immigration. Wages will rise as will employment opportunities. As for "jobs Brits won't do" well if you won't do a job you won't get your unemployment benefit.

Say what? Trade was **** by labour but was also already rising? Yeah, that makes total sense.

Labour fought the GE under Foot on a commitment to leave the "free market" EEC, bad for jobs they said

We have many unemployed people in the UK and many trapped in low paying jobs by uncontrolled immigration.

and yet maybot and davis have said that immigration wont drop after brexit......

so scapegoating the EU for the failings of westminster will at least be exposed for the great lie it always was

Jam, my questions re your vision of visa controlled immigration are in [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/775#post-8411022 ]this post.[/url]

The rest of the world seems to manage quite well without the EU's Freedom of Movement

No country has ever joined the EU and then left it. Countries that aren't EU members didn't spend 40 years in it. You cannot draw conclusions like that, it's idiotic. We're in completely uncharted territory.

The EU is one of the biggest economies in the world, and we are leaving it. It's the only economy that can compare to the US in size and development. And we're leaving it. It would be like a state leaving the US and expecting it to be better off.

It would be like a state leaving the US and expecting it to be better off.

He's gonna say California.

VISAs should be issued to those who can make a necessary contribution be they fruit pickers or post-doctorate researchers.
1) How do we define necessary?

2) Issuing visas based on existing demand excludes people who might come here to actually start businesses, doesn't it? Many EU migrants have done just that, and their successful economic activity creates growth. We'd lose that contribution.

3) Would visas be tied to jobs? So if the job ends you have to go home? People cannot build a life on those terms so you will lose a lot of skills and workers as they head elsewhere to settle. This will be economically damaging don't you think?

1) The Government will set the agenda in responce to business amd service need. Seems to work everywhere else.

2) No you can apply for a VISA based on a business plan

3) Depends, US has both versions, job dependent and not.

We are not reinveting the wheel here. We will be doing what the rest of the world is doing. We can base our system on what works best

We will be doing what the rest of the world is doing.

Assuming you prefer closed doors to open ones in principle (I don't), like I said drawing parallels with the rest of the world is invalid because no other country has built an economy on FoM and then stopped it.

Here's another question for you: My wife's family are essentially trapped inside the USA. They cannot leave for more than a holiday, unless they get really lucky. Is that a good thing, do you think?

We are not reinveting the wheel here.

actually thats exactly what brexit is all about

[img] [/img]

Well it's more and more clear to me that the Tory party wanted out and the Cameron campaign was designed to achieve that. There was no need for project fear when the facts spoke for themselves. Just the publication of all this pro-EU information that demonstrates that remain's campaign was lies and false issues.

Meanwhile I have to consider how to visit some people in the UK without becoming a victim of hate crime. That rules out driving on French plates. I can't borrow a car because the stupid British insurance system insures drivers rather than cars and as I'm foreign the answer is no when people ask their insurance company to add me. My suntan and foreign gear and sandals without socks say I can't possibly be a faded M&S Brit. It's looking complicated, expensive. Any ideas? (this is mildly tongue in cheek but the issues are real)

Oh yeah, and the next time I hear British tourists speaking English as they walk around town should I shout abuse at them and insist they speak French in public? (following a recent thread about supermarket staff chatting informally in their native tongue and reports of foreigners getting abuse outside school gates for speaking foreign). Or do I have to wait until the official withdrawal when logically English will cease to be one of the three official languages.

Tempting but I'm not like that, I'll continue to assume the best in people until they prove me wrong, and be friendly to people whatever their race, creed, colour or country of origin. Not hard, smiling uses less muscles than scowling.

1) The Government will set the agenda in responce to business amd service need. Seems to work everywhere else.

2) No you can apply for a VISA based on a business plan

3) Depends, US has both versions, job dependent and not.

We are not reinveting the wheel here. We will be doing what the rest of the world is doing. We can base our system on what works best

If the US didn't have all those undocumented illegal workers from Mexico it would be a very different place. How much is the added bureaucracy going to cost, both to our economy and in cash terms to the government? I have a few friends in the US on H1-B visas and they're basically indentured servants. That's not a system we should be aiming to recreate.

Most french people I speak to assume that we have left the UK because of Brexit .

Quite funny really .

the official withdrawal when logically English will cease to be one of the three official languages.

Why are the Irish leaving too?

You obviously don't want to come over, so don#t bother, I am sure we will survive.

Welcome back, Chris. Go easy on the sun till your body remembers its French. 😉