[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

TurnerGuy - Member
Pedantically Michael Howard only said that May would show the same resolve as Thatcher.

It is everyone else that is suggesting that he was suggesting military action.

yeah thats exactly what he was implying 🙄

yeah thats exactly what he was implying

and you know that how ?

otherwise he could have used any example of steely resolve from british history eg thatcher negotiating a rebate for the CAP

instead he spoke of a war over a little rocky island that no one on britain gives a shit about

either hes a colossal idiot for not realising that his words might be taken that way or he genuinely is trying to threaten military response

its certainly the way the Spanish are reading it

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/04/03/actualidad/1491206086_783438.amp.html

still weve sent Johnson there for some sensible, calm, considered words

Thirty-five years ago this week another woman Prime Minister sent a task force half way across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country.

yes, that event was 35 years ago this week, so he mentioned it. What other examples of steely resolve from british history also have an anniversary this week?

[img] [/img]

TG, you must be the only person in the country.. europe... world? that actually believes his choice of an example wasnt a veiled threat

just check out some of teh comments on here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39475124

. Posted by Swansea-Fox on
2 minutes ago
Before we go to Jordan, we'll invade Spain on the way.

Should take a couple of tea breaks and teach those nasty spainairds, hands off Gibraltar.

GrahamS - Member

But in the interests of transparency here are the latest figures:

Though it's worth adding, as a perfect example of how meaningful these figures actually are- the UK's defence spending actually fell in the last period, to the point where we'd have fallen below the fabled 2%. So we did some accounting jiggery pokery and moved among other things some civilian pensions into "defence", so we could say "look, spending went up".

There's probably a bit more outrage about Howard's interview than there should be, but questioning why his words would not lead to the inferences made yesterday and today is even more stupid. It reminds me of the "plausible deniability" clause accompanying any dog-whistle racism statements. You just get clods parroting "Oh, he didn't actually say the words".

It's a good job there's a big distance between Howard and policy making. He's clearly losing his sense of perspective a bit. Of course our European neighbours will have him referred to mostly today as former leader of the Conservative Party, the current party of government. Which is why his words are just another embarrassment in a long line of recent gaffes.

It's definately going to be a long 2 years if people are going to jump at every bit of nonsense to come out. There is going to be a sh1t load more where that came from. It's all a ruse from Spain. Nothing more than words. Of course we're going to come out and say we'll defend Gibraltar, we have no choice just like any other nation every time someone threatens the sovereign territory of another country. But Spain is sabre rattling for the same reasons Argentina has been over the Falklands. To divert attention from the severe problems Spain is suffering. Nothing like a bit of sabre rattling to get your people ruled up and behind you, just words and posturing. There is going to be a load of that coming our way so maybe we just keep calm and let it pass rather than acting all outraged about everything - that's the politicians job.

It's definately going to be a long 2 years

It sure is and in another sense, it's going to incredibly short with stuff like this to sort out.

Other than that, yeah, it's all the EU's fault.

Nothing like a bit of sabre rattling to get your people ruled up and behind you, just words and posturing

Well, quite.

From Jamby:

The French (April/May) and German (October) elections will see to that. Candidates will be trying to out do each other on toughness.

Who'd have thunk it, eh?

A party in government coming up to an election taking the easy option and pandering to nationalist sentiment? It's lucky we don't do stuff like that over here...............oh, damn.

And let's not forget who has given the opportunity to individual European governments/parties to try to out-tough each other with regards to the UK. Yep - the leave voters.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

mrlebowski - Member

FFS, unless someone can give some really bloody good reasons for keeping Gib then give it the F back.

Well the people of Gibraltar have previously overwhelmingly voted (99%) to not cede sovereignty to Spain.
That's the only reason you need.

Well the people of Gibraltar have previously overwhelmingly voted (99%) to not cede sovereignty to Spain.

Well that was before the rUK voted to shaft them via Brexit

We've still got a while before being part of Spain is socially and economically more attractive than being British, but the Brexies are working on that 😉

Well the people of Gibraltar have previously overwhelmingly voted (99%) to not cede sovereignty to Spain.

Well let the people of Gibraltar look after themselves, why should their choice be anything to do with brexit.

All these low tax enclaves that we protect, Gibraltar, Channel Isles, IOM etc just strip revenue from the UK, about time we stopped protecting them, they only serve the filthy rich and **** over the majority.

instead he spoke of a war over a little rocky island that no one on Britain gives a shit about

Don't tar everyone with your own odious brush.

But Spain is sabre rattling for the same reasons Argentina has been over the Falklands

Missed that.

I thought it was basically a procedural thing. EU takes a dim view of internal land disputes, but when the UK leaves the EU it's not internal anymore, and as a member of protectionist organisation Spain are entitled to ask for that organisation's help and protection of their interests.

Gibraltar is not their interest.
Unless they're really worried about the effect of having a miniscule land border with a non-EU country, in which case they could simply employ lots of border guards to keep out the disenfranchised Scots fleeing the UK.
Gibraltar's sovereignty maintained, Spain's unemployment reduced, win-win! 🙂

I thought it was basically a procedural thing.

Howard's idiotic overreaction to please the more swivel-eyed makes negotiations that much harder

Don't tar everyone with your own odious brush.

My bad shouldve said 52% of the population don't give a shit about 😉

This is just foreplay, just wait till we get to the Irish border.....

Gibraltar is not their interest.

It is an external Land border, same issue with the Northern Ireland/Republic border.

You can't just ignore these because they don't fit your argument. People live in Spain and work in Gibraltar what taxes are they liable for? What duties do they need to pay etc etc etc.

Spain may be interested in reclaiming land they was taken at gun point, but more importantly is establishing the status of the border.

Unless they're really worried about the effect of having a miniscule land border with a non-EU country

Gibraltar isn't in the Customs Union so Spain already has a land border. I think Spain has used this to cause difficulties for the Gibraltese in the past?

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/02/eurocrat-tories-blame-eu-red-tape-conservatives-great-repeal-bill ]All this lot is just a distraction from the real business in hand[/url]

[i]For some Conservatives, such as Lord Lawson, the great repeal bill is an opportunity for a bonfire of EU rules, to finish the job launched by the domestic deregulation of the 1980s. Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, has declared: “We must begin by deregulating the labour market. Political objections must be overridden.” Priti Patel, the international development secretary, has expressed the hope that the newly emancipated UK will “halve the burdens of the EU social and employment legislation”.[/i]

Something to look forward too, eh?

But Spain is sabre rattling for the same reasons Argentina has been over the Falklands

Eh? have the Spanish been mouthing off about task forces, steely resolve an' such? The only rattling of (rusty) sabres has been on this end.

mrmo - Member

You can't just ignore

I didn't.
You only had to read one more word after the five you quoted. 💡

🙂

The only rattling of (rusty) sabres has been on this end.

Both sides have been rattling rusty sabres over this for years. Brexit is just another excuse to get all frothed up about it.

Well the people of Gibraltar have previously overwhelmingly voted (99%) to not cede sovereignty to Spain.

Yup. And to stay in the EU.
Two now contradictory overwhelming referendum results. How to we statisfy both?

Also, where did this sovereignty call come from? The EU simply stated that the future Gibraltar trade arrangements need to be agreed by both the UK and Spain. It can't automatically get the same arrangements as the rUK gets with EU/EEA… remember, they already have a very different arrangement inside the EU to the rUK. A different status is probably essential to not slowdown/prevent a good EU/rUK trade deal anyway. What EU has stated is essential to prevent the Gibraltar issue adversely effecting other EU/rUK border arrangements, not least the Irish one.

It was exactly that, Spain already has a veto on the trade deal just like the other 27 .

Yes, but wording suggests that Spain (or UK) can agree a trade deal between UK&EU, but not agree to the exact same terms applying to Gibraltar and its border with the EU.

kimbers - Member

My bad should've said 52% of the population don't give a shit about

So it's the remainers that are more concerned with sovereignty?

Have another coffee.

Have another coffee.

Also, where did this sovereignty call come from?

mrlebowski mentioned it, few posts above. 🙂

Also, where did this sovereignty call come from?

mrlebowski mentioned it, few posts above.

Oh, I see, and they did so in such a classy way… nice.

Here's what the EU doc actually said…

"After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."

kimbers - Member

none of that foreign muck only good old English tea for me

I hear the best comes from the plantations of Yorkshire.

Apparently Catalonia has asked to become a British protectorate. They plan on reduced taxes for corporations. Meanwhile Yorkshire is planning on becoming the same once out of the UK.

gibraltan sovereignity?

phillip hammond brought it up, it was righteously dismissed as [b]project fear [/b] by the brexies

I genuinely believe that the threat of leaving the European Union is as big a threat to Gibraltar's future security and Gibraltar's future sovereignty as the more traditional threats that we routinely talk about

but Liam fox assured us that it wouldnt be a problem

sorry express link
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/674869/David-Cameron-guarantee-Gibraltar-sovereignty-unacceptable-Project-Fear

Indeed. We have put Gibraltar's position in doubt by making them leave, nothing to blame the EU for that I can see.

The EU doc just states that Spain and UK have to agree as to what happens with Gibraltar, and that it isn't necessarily party to all parts of an agreement between the EU and UK. A vital exception if we're to get a trade agreement sorted.

none of that foreign muck only good old english tea for me

But Spain is sabre rattling for the same reasons Argentina has been over the Falklands. To divert attention from the severe problems Spain is suffering.

So nothing to do with Gib being part of the Spanish mainland then?.......

As posted by Binners:

All this idiocy around Gibraltar is making the government look silly to sensible people but probably a bit macho to stupid people.

But the real story is this:

For some Conservatives, such as Lord Lawson, the great repeal bill is an opportunity for a bonfire of EU rules, to finish the job launched by the domestic deregulation of the 1980s. Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, has declared: “We must begin by deregulating the labour market. Political objections must be overridden.” Priti Patel, the international development secretary, has expressed the hope that the newly emancipated UK will “halve the burdens of the EU social and employment legislation”.

For the Brexies out there (and everyone else who really need to be worried about this): Do you need someone to draw a picture of what this means for the vast majority of UK citizens?

So nothing to do with Gib being part of the Spanish mainland then?.....

NB - not wishing to support the outcry by Howard et al in any way BTW.

For the Brexies out there (and everyone else who really need to be worried about this): Do you need someone to draw a picture of what this means for the vast majority of UK citizens?

Is it Government policy?

Eh, you do realise that Gibraltar was given to England as 'payment' so they'd stop participating in the Spanish Succession?

Someone is ironing somewhere

Is it Government policy

At the moment is just a right-wing wet dream, but they are in a cake and eating it mood these days what with labour being in the wilderness.

Surely then Andorra is "part of the Spanish Mainland" and so is Portugal. Is Spain asking for sovereignty over them as well?

i would advise reading up on the Treaty of Utrecht. Spain came out of it badly and as so often such things take a while to be settled. (if ever)

the interesting bit i guess, Spain is not allowed to trade with Gibraltar by the same Treaty.....

All really messy but then history tends to be.

Is it Government policy?

It has become impossible to tell what is and what isn't.

Of course, as one of the privileged 27, Spain already had a vetonover the deal I think.
Does this not actually mean that the EU have taken a softer position (there can be a separate deal on Gibraltar if the UK and Spain agree - no one else gets s say on that) than if they hadn't made this statement?

Is it Government policy?

Is it Government policy?

It will be.

Making the UK free from this kind of regulation is all Brexshit has really ever been about.

igm, i think it is the same issue as Rep. Ireland, they both have land borders and as such other considerations that aren't really applicable elsewhere. Admittedly there is are minor issues, such as to where the customs should be in Calais for example.

Freedom of movement lets people live in one country and work in another, as the UK has declared no freedom of movement as its main position the simple fact is you can't live in the republic of Ireland and work in the North and vice versa, likewise for Gibraltar.

Is it Government policy?

No, but it [i]is[/i] Daily Telegraph policy so give it time.

(And they cite support from IDS, Lawson, Tebbit, Open Europe and the Chambers of Commerce)

May has said not. Well until 2020. Then who know

In 2020 it will be decided by whoever wins the GE.

Making the UK free from this kind of regulation is all Brexshit has really ever been about.

@El-bent not for me nor anyone else I campaigned with

Freedom of movement lets people live in one country and work in another,

So does a visa

Except I think this leaves the door open to agree that sort of deal.

I think they are acknowledging that a no FoM deal might not work for Gibraltar.

Meanwhile we've slapped them in the face.

Edit: Jamba, you made the visa point months ago. While true, or at least true-ish, it's a bit beside the point. It doesn't normally allow you to go to a place and then find work for example and as s number of people on here have pointed out it risks splitting families. But I'm not telling you anything you don't know am I?

So does a visa

and how much does a visa cost? How much RED TAPE, when you are talking about living a couple of miles from where you work, potentially in a fairly bottom of the pile job?

Stop thinking in terms of £100K a year and start thinking about median wages and below, far below, care assistants and the like.

Its only a 1/3rd of the Rocks entire population again that will have to sort out visas for their daily trip to work, its a brilliant (albeit amplified) example of how brexshit will harm growth, trade and industry.

As jambs thought that losing scotland was a worthy price to pay for brexshit Im sure he'll have no qualms about abandoning gibraltar

Yep, the absolute best possible case scenario for the Gibraltish is that it's a total pain in the cock. So it's interesting that when brexiteers bang on about how much we're behind the Gibraltarians what they're actually saying is "We're gonnae hurt your cocks. Blame the Spanish"

yup

https://infacts.org/brexiters-casually-threw-gibraltar-battle-bus/

As the unintended consequences of Brexit unfold, the fate of Gibraltar’s economy will probably not trouble the sleep of many British voters. But it should do. They broke it; and now we, all of us, own it.

It's not an unintended consequence, it's a totally intended one.

but, but , but Vote leave promised

https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/738819773753131008

and they never ever lie.............. oh wait, yeah

While we're on promises, I recall that we were *absolutely* promised that the Euro would implode, leaving nothing but the smoking ruins of major western economies.

Imagine my disappointment when I read that instead, the EU economy is on the up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/04/03/deflation-danger-european-central-bank-fresh-debt-drama-looms/

A blizzard of new figures paint a picture of accelerating growth across the region, with unemployment falling to an eight-year low of 9.5pc

A blizzard of new figures paint a picture of accelerating growth across the region, with unemployment falling to an eight-year low of 9.5pc

Thats not something i'd boast about to be honest....nearly 10% unemployment across the EU, hardly a success story....and lets not mention Greece, in fact it barely get mentioned anymore, its like the embarrassing member that gets ushered out of the room when the grown ups talk....lovely compassionate way for the other 27 states to treat a member in need....meanwhile Merkel cant get enough immigrants into her country, theres a phrase about putting your own house in order before lecturing other people, or something like that.

Re. Gibraltar, lets call Spains's bluff and see if they're willing to give up their Moroccon enclaves of Melilla and Cueta in exchange for Gibraltar...i think i can guess what the answer will be already.

Withdraw all British security from mainland Europe, impose WTO tariffs, watch Spanish fisherman and French farmers go apoplectic with rage and then encourage a resurgence in UK farming, job done.
No one said this was going to be pretty.

...then sit back and watch the squabbling as the remaining States argue over who will pony up the missing UK billions, this could be be comedy gold infact.

Withdraw all British security from mainland Europe, impose WTO tariffs, watch Spanish fisherman and French farmers go apoplectic with rage and then encourage a resurgence in UK farming, job done.
No one said this was going to be pretty.

...then sit back and watch the squabbling as the remaining States argue over who will pony up the missing UK billions, this could be be comedy gold infact.

Resurgence in U.K. Farming, U.K. Farmers will go bust on mass, very few make any money most rely on CAP. Take a look at the numbers of dairy farmers going bust each year, look at the ROI. I assume you have forgotten the new articles about the price of milk??

This is before considering that any future trade deal meals the U.K. Has to pick a side, Gmo and no sales to Europe. How about steroid beef? Etc

So does a visa

Let's just clear this up. Visas are nothing like freedom of movement. They are conditional, cost money, can be very hard to get, and can be revoked.

As for a resurgence in UK farming - how's that going to happen without big food price increases?

Well we could quadruple the (already high) suicide rate among farmers, render their land worthless and strip all environmental protection laws.

I personally don't give a shit about moron farmers who voted leave but some people might have more compassion.

The government will have to subsidize farming to replace the CAP, (i believe Leadsome has really scared farmers by saying we can't afford that)
The supermarkets will have to accept much bigger price rises, which will really hurt the poorest, what with inflation, stalled wage growth and continued punishment budgets hitting the poorest hardest.
Itd also mean big tariffs on incoming foodstuffs to protect our own farmers, which would lead to reciprocal tariffs on our exports....

I'm sure that's me being too pessimistic, hopefully a brexie will come along and set me straight

Comedy gold!

I personally don't give a shit about moron farmers who voted leave

I quite like eating their food though.

and not all farmers are morons and I know a lot who voted remain. The UK farming industry has worked well within the EU and lead the way in a lot of respects.

[I]The government will have to subsidize farming to replace the CAP, (i believe Leadsome has really scared farmers by saying we can't afford that)
The supermarkets will have to accept much bigger price rises, which will really hurt the poorest, what with inflation, stalled wage growth and continued punishment budgets hitting the poorest hardest.
Itd also mean big tariffs on incoming foodstuffs to protect our own farmers, which would lead to reciprocal tariffs on our exports....[/I]

Or we could take the actual cost of subsidising the farmers and pass it back to our citizens as (part) payment of the increase in food prices. Need to be the same per person rather than off tax etc.

We'd need to put on import duties to protect the farmers for a period (10 years, maybe more) though from cheaper food from abroad.

In fact I'm sure most farmers would be against subsidising ANY other industry anyway (a bit like a majority voted for Leave) 😉 maybe the should just be let loose with the free-market?

Farmer on the morning news the other day, he voted to leave, his reasons were cheap EU imports and the supermarkets drive down his prices.
He wants a genuinely free unsubsidized market where he can sell his product at a fair price, couldn't argue with that really.

Funnily enough not everyone is entitled to eat cheap mass produced steak every night, if some costs get passed onto the consumer then so be it.

http://newsthump.com/2017/04/03/shit-flinging-gibraltar-monkeys-are-missing-link-between-ukip-voters-and-modern-humans/

More on Gib.......:)

He wants a genuinely free unsubsidized market where he can sell his product at a fair price, couldn't argue with that really.

I suspect that if the market were completely free, most UK farmers would be out of business and we'd all be eating corn fed intensively farmed beef from South America when we could afford it. More food miles, worse for the environment and worse animal welfare standards.

Sounds great!

Funnily enough not everyone is entitled to eat cheap mass produced steak every night

You really think that's what pepole are eating? Steak every night?

Or are you just making up bollocks to boost your preconceptions? Be honest now.. you are, aren't you?

You'd hope that at this moment someone in Govt is currently working out the farming options/costs. Well you'd hope...

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-plan-bring-back-blue-passports-500-million-home-office-redesign-project-a7662601.html ]I think they're spending the time on money on the stuff that really matters[/url]

deviant - Member

Farmer on the morning news the other day, he voted to leave, his reasons were cheap EU imports and the supermarkets drive down his prices.
He wants a genuinely free unsubsidized market where he can sell his product at a fair price, couldn't argue with that really.

Did he say anything that made "I don't like cheap imports" "I don't like supermarket buying power" and "I want a genuinely free market" make any sense?

Funnily enough not everyone is entitled to eat cheap mass produced steak every night, if some costs get passed onto the consumer then so be it.

So be it indeed. And if the consumer chooses to buy some cheaper stuff from the US/New Zealand/Africa instead, and the farmers go bust, then so be it.

And then if we get all our food from overseas, and there's a war or some other global problem, then we could quite literally starve.

Not really thought this through very well have you deviant?

Gibraltar, lets call Spains's bluff and see if they're willing to give up their Moroccon enclaves of Melilla and Cueta in exchange for Gibraltar..

???

WTF has old Spanish colonial enclaves got to do with the UK??

That's a dispute between Spain & Morocco.

They'd be well within their rights to tell us to naff off..

As we do when they get involved with us & Argentina.

Free market, I happen to believe in it in its entirety.
The farmer made a lot of sense.

(And some of us without kids eat steak every night, when it gets boring we switch to smoked salmon but you get the drift....food is too cheap in this country, hence our colossal waste etc)

Re. Gibraltar, they like to kick up merry hell because it's on Spanish mainland....let's see how principled Spain is when asked to do the same with their Moroccan enclaves ...if they refuse then they can swivel for Gibraltar. Double standards from them and they're to be laughed away from the negotiating table.

food is too cheap in this country, hence our colossal waste etc

So your solution to food banks is.....

To make food more expensive??

So, beans on toast even more often for my kids, and British livestock farmers as good as wiped out by low cost hormone and antibiotic stuffed imported meat.

Taking back control.