Forum menu
It is interesting that the Indian government would only consider a trade deal in there was FOM - now that would send the kippers nuts.
Similar sentiments to those expressed by Australia i seem to remember.
"I love the fact that my offices are full of people from all over Europe who feel at home here."
How parochial. I love the fact that my offices are full of people from all over the world who feel at home here.
This a good time for remainers.
Nine months of phoney war with the Brexies coming to an end.
You can't attack smoke and mirrors and that was all the Brexies put up the whole way along.
Until now. Now, since A50 as been triggered, concrete things will need to happen. And those will crystallise some bad things, possibly some good things, but real hard things that can be supported or attacked.
Finally we get to do something about this insanity.
I'm not looking to "go back" to anything. I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.
Maybe you're not but I think (faux) nostalgia informed significantly one of the cohorts that voted leave. The leave vote was not homogenous. (Luckily that also means it's divisible).
I don't remember that Gibraltar was one of May's Red Lines, or did I miss that one?
FFS it's a negotiation and like any negotiation at some point EVERYTHING will come on to the table.
Oh, sorry I forgot, "it's having cake and eating it"...
Pretty obvious that trying to apply pressure via a thinly veiled threat to Gilbralter was going to backfire. By all means give Spain a veto as they have done and see where that gets them.
Slightly ironic Spain's position given they have two port enclaves in Morocco.
The EU will eat a lot of humble pie if UK and/or US block any Greek refinancing by the IMF.
As per the press and the article I linked to EU are highly dependent upon British Security Intelligence. Dangerous games they are playing.
^^It's all the EU's fault.
Today the Brexit press is fapping itself into a frenzy over blue passports. I'm sure imperial measurements were mentioned somewhere as well.
#lookingforward
Oh for the love of God shut up, May started escalating this rubbish with her threat about security.
Oh for the love of God shut up, May started escalating this rubbish with her threat about security.
This ^^^^^^
It's quite revealing that someone would contemplate for one moment the idea of considering security issues as part of a "deal" - using EU citizens as bargaining chips " is already deplorable enough.
Guys, Jamba is trying to keep the discussion to smoke and mirrors at a time when the Brexies actually have to start building something concrete. That will be new territory for them and territory they are singularly ill equiped to tackle.
Ignore his spin - stick to the tangible (of which admittedly there is very little).
When I end up in the "other nationalities" queue with my blue passport, I will feel pretty bloody humiliated. The country that rejected cooperation and solidarity for nationalism.
That's now how I think and it's not how I want my country to think.
So desperately hoping the associate membership thing happens.
It occurred to me that some companies might pay for or require certain employees to get this if it goes ahead. Would make cross border work way easier.
Yep, let me know how much to pay to keep my purple passport and I'll gladly pay
Leave was largely right wing.
In Sunderland and Stoke and and and and ....
The above statement is classic Labour Party denial and helps to explain why Remain lost and Labour are in free fall. Low/unskilled workers have most to lose from uncontrolled migration. Someone from Eastern Europe is highly unlikely to take my job and in any case a suitable candidate would get a work visa under any controlled system. So In/Out makes zero difference to me personally from a employment perspective
@igm there is going to be nothung concrete for ages just a steller amount of [b]Posium Posturing[/b]. The French (April/May) and German (October) elections will see to that. Candidates will be trying to out do each other on toughness. Meanwhile July is next big Greek debt payment.
For once I agree with Jamba.
The old Left/Right labels are looking pretty tired these days anyway, but I don't think Brexit can really be painted as a right-wing thing. Tories and Labour were both split over it.
Anyway enough raking over why Remain lost. BBC2 Turkey.
God this fake sentmental claptrap about what have we become is irritating. Alot of people seem to be quite happy to justify anything the EU says because we deserve it because we voted against it - the EU is not some happy clappy church where everyone seeks to do good. Yet when we merely point out what we bring to the party, it is morally reprehensible and the country is going to the dogs - talk about losing any sense of perspective. Fortunately the politicians who will actually work things out are no longer in need of a pram so projectiles will not be deprammed.
I do not understand any of that mefty 🙂
slowoldman - Member
Leave was largely right wing.
If after all these years you (generally speaking those opposing not about you) still think about right wing whatever wing then you don't get it and probably will never forever. It has never been about that from the beginning. 😆
talk about losing any sense of perspective.
🙂
Indeed.
The above statement is classic Labour Party denial
but I don't think Brexit can really be painted as a right-wing thing.
If after all these years you (generally speaking those opposing not about you) still think about right wing whatever wing then you don't get it and probably will never forever
So what about that graph in the link I posted?
Brexies actually have to start building something concrete
they will just hire some consultants to figure this out
I believe I read somewhere this is seriously what they are doing and it's not just the passport tender, seems they are looking for consultants to figure out how the ship will sail
DrJ - MemberIt's quite revealing that someone would contemplate for one moment the idea of considering security issues as part of a "deal"
It is incredible isn't it. Leaving aside the crassness of it, it's incredibly revealing on the mindset- security cooperation is something we give to other people apparently, and they think we can demand consideration of trade deals in return. You know what we actually get in return for security cooperation? [i]Security cooperation[/i]. It's not our gift to europe, it's something we do because it's a damn good idea and everyone benefits, including us.
That an using the EU citizens here as bargaining chips. It does show clearly how poor the bargaining position is tho
Security cooperation. It's not our gift to europe, it's something we do because it's a damn good idea and everyone benefits, including us.
Oh but apparently it's what we are uniquely brilliant at.
As brexit was about a rejection of social democracy and im pretty sure that the likes of IBS and Rees-Mogg et al aren't democratic socialists then I don't see it as anything other than a lurch to the hard right.
Problem solved.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passport-European-Protector-Leather-Lizzy-/dp/B00NXY7CGK/
[img] 
[/img]
It does seem weird to me though that the leavers would want a passport in blue and gold...
@Nipper sadly STW's most consistent left wing poster @ernie_lynch was a Leave supporter but can't be bothered with this thread. As such we are missing his input.
He posted Left Leave's rationale and it matched the dialogue from Tony Benn and Corbyn (who deleted all his anti-EU blog posts prior to the Referendum). Also rember Michael Foot fought an election on a Manifesto Pledge to take the UK out of the EEC.
Yep as said many times it's not left vs right. Some of the far left stuff was as laughable as UKIP, just praying for the death of the tory party while not actually proposing anything that would help people. The prospects for the poor and uneducated are much worse though. If you were struggling to find work during very low unemployment then nothing proposed so far will fix that.
The EU will be blamed, accused of and made the scapegoat for many more years of failing UK governments.
The latest sabre rattling over Gibraltar certainly shows the idiots we have let out recently, turns out everything on the table includes the military.
Jamba - I agree that nothing concrete has arrived yet, nor will it for a good while yet, what I am suggesting is that the Brexy campaign was smoke and mirrors from day one and there is no point in arguing with it. I know you would rather we kept arguing over every piece of fiction you post, but the best way to keep the Brexies in their place is not to argue. They will destroy themselves because fundamentally they have too many disparate views, too little common ground.
And you know that. The only thing that keeps the Brexy view together is a common enemy - keep the argument going and you can maintain the enemy.
Someone suggested the Brexies learnt their tactics from new labour - rubbish it was Orwell's 1984
I think you'll find the use of "a common enemy" was not a George Orwell construct. Try a bit of history for examples. Yorkshire has quite correctly been at the forefront of this concept for hundreds of years (with good reason).
Now that Scotlandshire has Spanish support for independent membership of the EU. It cannot be long before pressure will be applied to the Westminster overlord to grant Yorkshire its own independence. Can't see Gods country in the EU though unless its cheap.
@mefty - good post that, possible for to sensible for some.
@mt how do you know when the page turns so you have to come back and post the same thing? 😉
@mikesmith, I like to drop in now and again to keep up with the knowledgeable and reasoned arguments of both sides of the debate. I then like to add my own thoughts on the subject, I think they show about as much sense as all the others on here.
[I]The old Left/Right labels are looking pretty tired these days anyway, but I don't think Brexit can really be painted as a right-wing thing. Tories and Labour were both split over it.[/I]
I've always voted left (of centre) but it doesn't mean I agree with everything that is 'left', the same way I don't disagree with everything 'right'.
But fundamentally I'm a socialist/liberal/democrat who believes that Govt is there to serve it's people and help them to a better life, and for me Leave isn't that.
Leave IMO will end up with a less equal country, and listen to the promoters of Leave (including Jamba on here), this is what we will get.
a socialist/liberal/democrat who believes that Govt is there to serve it's people and help them to a better life,
Unfortunately that is what leave promised (empty though) to the people who have been failed by successive short sighted UK governments.
Left wing haters, right wing haters. Its a wonder some of you can get on plane to go on yer hols.
Your can blame the right for Brexit, the Tories have anyways been split over Europe:
jingoism Vs economics
You can also blame Camerons inability to control his party and run such a clueless campaign
UKIP is just a particularly unpleasant wing of the Tories after all, it's stuffed full of failed Tory MPs and ex councillors
The Tories have also spent years capitalising on decades of nationalistic rubbish in the sun, mail, express, telegraph that has ranged from the ridiculous (bananas) to nasty (dehumanisation of immigrants)
Then there was genius George Osborne, years of crushing austerity, hundreds of libraries, sure start centres closed, social care destroyed, NHS acutely understaffed, attacking the disabled with fit for work and bedroom tax
while the middle class right wingers revelled in the shirkers losing their benefits,
there was huge resentment growing.
That's why Osborne's threat of a punishment budget meant nothing, he'd been handing them out ever since he became chancellor and guess what Hammond's still doing it too.
The left are guilty of not shouting loudly enough for Europe and protecting those that the Tories have hurt the most,
but the right own brexshit they are up to their nuts in it without a condom 😐
I'd like to think it'll give them political syphalis
so kimbers how does our colective hero Tony Benn fir into the anti EU right wing story? Is it cause he was a closet right winger being as he was a lordly type?
Yeah Tony Benn was pretty much the Face of Vote Leave, definitely wasnt Johnson, Gove, IDS, Rees Mogg or Farage that stood grinning like buffoons in front of the bus of lies or rent-a-gobbing on newsnight/ QT 🙄
Labour were guilty of being ineffectual but would corbs have had an impact whatever side of the debate he'd come down on?
so kimbers how does our colective hero Tony Benn fir into the anti EU right wing story?
I think you'll find that Tony Benn played a rather small role in Brexit, what with being dead and all.
Meanwhile Michael Howard has got the usual Tory hard-on over going to war.
I think it's because Brexies can't admit that Project Fear was actually right, so they'd rather organise a bit of patriotic killing than admit that they were wrong.
And lo the torygraph steps up.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/02/britains-navy-far-weaker-falklands-could-still-cripple-spain/
Johnson's knowledge of ancient Greek did fk all good when he was side-swiped by Spain, turns out that on joining the EU the Spanish had to renounce their claim to gibraltar, where's the clueless Brexie to step up and tell us that the EU has had nothing to do with peace in Europe?
We've only handed in our notice a week ago and already the idiots are wheeling out the Thatcher / Argentina comparisons
The thing about Gibralter is if you try to look objectively rather than jingoistically then it makes perfect sense that Spain needs special consideration. I t has an enclave that is going to be outside the EU and that already undercuts spain and distorts the Spanish economy. while part of the EU Spain has no option but to put up with it but once Gibralter leaves the EU then it doesn't and all the statement does is recognise this situation
Michael Howard something of the night, something of the stupid
5 days after Article 50 is triggered , there are talks of war over an issue not mentioned once since the referendum .
Going to plan I see .
You do have to laugh though:
Before Article 50: 'The idea of the EU somehow preventing war in Europe is just Project Fear.'
Days After Article 50: 'Let's f**ing bomb Spain'
Ooh, Falklands 2! Wicked, warm up the Vulcans, the Harriers and the aircraft carriers!
I love Howard's follow up though, "“I can see no harm in reminding them what kind of people we are.” Oh we know mate, we know.
I did like someone's point (Telegraph maybe) that as NATO members we'd be obliged to defend Spain against ourselves 🙂
Leave IMO will end up with a less equal country, and listen to the promoters of Leave (including Jamba on here), this is what we will get.
Its not based on any reality we know, but with all extremists it is a statement of intent.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/apr/01/brexit-may-merkel-eu-talks-davis?CMP=fb_gu
Reality seeing in yet ?
?
Anyone?
It's the deafening Silence of the Brexies
Any word on when we recommence firebombing Dresden?
DrJ I mentioned Tony Benn as he is one of the grandfathers of Labour and a lifelong opponent of the EEC/EU.
Kimbers Gisela Stuart was a key figure in the Leave campaign which won the fight to be the official campaign not least as it was multi-party (as opposed to Leave.EU)
Look again at the country map, it was Labour votes which delivered Brexit. Labour constituencies delivered the big wins and every vote counts in a Referendum so those where far more important than in a GE.
Graham the NATO obligations are a bit flakey, its not as automatic as you'd think - do the Spanish pay their 2% ? Plus there isn't going to be a shooting war over Gibraltar. It's tactics to try and protect Spanish fishing quotas in UK waters.
Now the blame game, so when it goes tits up Jamba has already blamed the lefties 🙄
do the Spanish pay their 2%
Are you going to send them a bill??
FFS, unless someone can give some really bloody good reasons for keeping Gib then give it the F back.
Howard's a cast iron ****t.
Graham the NATO obligations are a bit flakey, its not as automatic as you'd think - do the Spanish pay their 2% ? Plus there isn't going to be a shooting war over Gibraltar. It's tactics to try and protect Spanish fishing quotas in UK waters.
Yep now everything we have and had is now up for negotiations, with the long list of wants people will not get all of them and the UK will need to give something up.
Jamby, Indeed, labour should've protected those communities from their idealistically driven destruction by the Tories, they failed. So those communities turned on the latest Tory architects of their subjugation- Cameron and Osborne...
Oh wait yeah, it was definitely all about Gisela Stuart 😆
DrJ - Member
"I think you'll find that Tony Benn played a rather small role in Brexit, what with being dead and all."
That's not whot he told me, he never looks dead when I see him. He has been a bit hard to win over to the independent Yorkshire campaign.
Good advice In FT
[img] 
:large[/img]
Kimbers I struggled through that Guardian piece. A bizarre interpretation of what the EU documents says which is that the "divorce payment" has to be agreed in part before trade negotiations can strart. Very much NOT an "emphatic no". As for Merkel she faces a summer of electioneering and Podium Policy declarations.
As for EU unity remember the Polish tried to stop Tusk being relected, he's Polish and in theory EU members must approve officers from their countries. Once again the EU bent the rules to suit itself.
Is Michael Howard trying to protect fishing quotas or just trying to make negotiating as hard as possible,?
It's not like there are millions of Brits living in Spain, I'm sure they are thrilled by his disregard for them.
Threatening a war is definitely the best way to start the most important negotiations since WWII 🙄
"This is what the EU does"
It's all the EU's fault.
Cutting and pasting myself from another thread, on the Nato 2%.
It's a pledge made in 2014 to "aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO’s capability shortfalls." Since it's not 2024, nobody's failing to meet it, and though certainly some will, they won't be breaking a commitment either because they haven't committed to spend 2%, they've committed to "aim to move towards".
Anyone claiming NATO members have committed to spend 2% [i]now[/i] is either clueless or lying. (or why not both?). But Donald Trump tweeted about it! It must be true!
I'm impressed with Brexy Tories suggesting unilateral military action.
I thought it would take longer before we got to this level of (what Jamba rightly says is) posturing.
Grow up Michael.
now is either clueless or lying. (or why not both?). But Donald Trump tweeted about it! It must be true!
Well I thinks it's been claimed already... Increasingly we have some more Sean spicers landing here willing to parrot whatever fox news runs
"This is what the EU does" it fights hard for what it stands for, that is a good thing not a (bad) blame thing. If as a remainer you cannot see point of that article from the FT then there is a little of you would accuse a Brexshitter of being.
@mefty was that FT article in the weekend FT?
Wonder how the FT would see a Free Yorkshire?
Excellent piece Mefty
My third piece of advice is to take your opponents more seriously. Not everyone you disagree with is irrational
Absolutely spot on. Over the 4 years I have been on here there is page after page of ridicule and insult against "the right" / Leave and over than time "the left" / Remain has lost again and again very much IMO as they don't take their opponents to be rational or serious.
DrJ I mentioned Tony Benn as he is one of the grandfathers of Labour and a lifelong opponent of the EEC/EU.
A person can be an opponent of the EU without being a racist knob. Despite recent evidence to the contrary.
NATO clearly refers to the 2% GDP thing (and the 20% equipment expenditure thing) as "guidelines" not hard fast rules required by NATO members.
But in the interests of transparency here are the latest figures:
[img] 
[/img]
Source:
independent Yorkshire campaign.
zzzzzz.....
Ian Dunt:
We're basically having a national nervous breakdown on the world stage.
😆
"the left" / Remain has lost again and again very much IMO as they don't take their opponents to be rational or serious.
On the contrary - they lost precisely because they assumed the electorate were rational, and would not vote against their own interests. Instead we see again that people do not behave rationally and vote for liars where this fits in with their preconceptions.
One thing struck me from that FT piece that equally appliers to the leavers " stop behaving as if you are still campaigning" Howards intervention is aimed firmly at the rabid xenophobes of all this not at the people who need to be convinced - EU politicians. They will be repelled by it
Remain has lost again and again very much IMO as they don't take their opponents to be rational or serious.
Actually I think quite the reverse. Remain tried to use grown up factually based (even expert forecasts are factually based) against smoke and mirrors from Brexies.
As you yourself have said (and Banks and Farage also stem this) the referendum was not won on rational arguments but emotional ones. In your (and my) opinion.
If the Brexies get a get liberal and lucrative deal for Britain and our friends and neighbours, then I will happily become a Brexy.
But you have a distance to go when sabre rattling is your sole public contribution since A50.
(I take it, Jamba,you agree Howard is an arse for that at least - even Brexy sympathisers I've spoken this morning are rolling their eyes at that one)
"One thing struck me from that FT piece that equally appliers to the leavers " stop behaving as if you are still campaigning"
very true.
We at the Freedom for Yorkshire Campaign are as yet not in this position.
Don't sleep drj why not FYC.
On website dated yesterday
Yep as said many times it's not left vs right
or old vs. young?
mefty that barticle assumes there wont be a 2nd brexit vote in 2 years
the EU have said they are fine with it
as clueless muppets (Howard) spiral us toward a Hard Brexit Minus
a lot of the brexie wish list was slapped down the day after A50
who knows where the public mood will be after 2 years of gilbralta style debacles
🙂
I don't give a about Brexit now, I'll be fine. Just let me know where I can apply for my EU passport and who to make the cheque out to.
Pedantically Michael Howard only said that May would show the same resolve as Thatcher.
It is everyone else that is suggesting that he was suggesting military action.