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The whole of the rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU
What he meant is 'the whole of the rest of the world that matters to people whose only interest is self-enrichment'.
I mean, who wants to invest in South Sudan? Actually, there are quite a few Tory supporters out there who would probably quite like to run some kind of profit-making enterprise involving food distribution in famine-hit areas. It's what we should all aspire to, after all.
[I]The whole of the rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU[/I]
Aye..., and I'm sure most of their citizens would give their backteeth to get the rights that EU citizens have, nevermind to have anywhere near our standard of living.
Err, but the pound is still roughly 15% down versus the dollar compared to just before the referendum, isn't it?
How is that good again? Can't remember.
It means we are very competitive when it comes to exporting our goods (whatever they are) to... erm, help me out here.
Link tennis is not my style and I assume people read the news or if they want clarification they can use google.
What's that I smell?
Oh yeah.....
Bullsh1t..
help me out here.
Okay..,
It means we are very competitive when it comes to exporting our jam to the Commonwealth
😉
Aye..., and I'm sure most of their citizens would give their backteeth to get the rights that EU citizens have, nevermind to have anywhere near our standard of living.
Which is the thing that disgusts me most about Brexshit and Trump. It is a result of a sizable number of immensely privileged people (in a world sense), that have done bugger all to 'earn' that privilege, saying "it is not enough". Anyway, I'm getting riled up with this again, so time to leave it.
Brexies, you won. You've got to make this work now.
Brexies, you won. You've got to make this work now.
Not necessarily. We've not reached the end game. It can still fall on its arse.
^^ word. No way near over. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to shut you down.
Ireland was about the poorest country in Europe in the '60s, that is the entire continent!
and now?
Obviously the EU has screwed the economy and reduced the country to one of the poorest on earth....
now? they've got all Apple's unpaid tax! 😉
Yes, but all predictions are lower than todays rate aren't they?
No, plenty of institutions saying sterling is a buy.
sbob- you took a simple point I made, distorted it to be something completely different and then continued to use what you claimed I said not what I did say
enough -
dannyh - MemberBrexies, you won. You've got to make this work now.
Get with the programme man, the brexies don't need to do anything. The remainers have to make it work, and if it doesn't it'll be the evil EU's fault, so why would they?
A few points well made.
The only point well made.
Now, all the above might be “delusional”. But it is the British perspective
A few points well made.https://reaction.life/seven-key-british-perspectives-brexit-negotiations
Well at least we know where you recycle your garbage from now. To try and claim that that is the British perspective is ludicrous and arrogant. The reason that we may end up with a bad deal is if people like that open their gobs and the EU take them seriously.
oh dear linking to Reaction, thats a sign of desperation, bregret is surely the next stage if you are linking to that jingoistic clickbait 😉
Same point #7 made by Sky and Telegragph. The rest was pretty uncontroversial. No one is "giving" us anything, its a mutually beneficial agreement or there is none.
http://news.sky.com/story/security-on-the-table-during-brexit-talks-10821808
rupert murdoch & the barclay bros now
here's a spade, keep digging
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that aside using 'security' as a negotiating chip is in the grand scheme of things monumentally stupid and short sighted
as such yeah, it fits in perfectly with the mess that brexshit has created
Have to say Im loving the comments from brexies on social media saying that we should test out some trident missles on spain re gibraltar
Ive seen 3 or 4 people say similar things now , I think its because they daren't admit that project fear is coming true
More straw Jambalaya
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[url= http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/6794/full ]Very good article on the failure of the intelligensia[/url]
The argument seems to be people are naturally xenophobic nationalists and the "cultural left" by trying to stop people being xenophobic nationalists only causes them to do this to a greater degree.
Not sure I'd call it very good.
An attempt to intellectualise a Daily Mail opinion piece really.
Jamba says he doesn't do link tennis, then starts posting links.
More lies 😆
Perception is a dangerous thing...
My ex-wife had views of how our divorce should work and what she'd get out of it; house, car, income for life.
None of those things occurred as we were young (few assets or cash) and in reality the bank owned the house (post late 80's slump), the finance company owned her car and there are laws about maintenance (or lack of).
Interesting
Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland’s EU hopes, although he stressed that Madrid would not welcome the disintegration of the UK.
He also said Edinburgh would have to apply for membership, a process fraught with uncertainty that is likely to take several years. But asked directly whether Spain would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU, Dastis said: “No, we wouldn’t.”
from meftys link
One reason may be that any argument which has something good to say about the nation state is met with a knee-jerk rejection.
Id say the opposite is true the entire brexit (and trump) campaign was built from a narrative that britain was broken, whipping up fear of immigrants etc, the Sun, telegraph Daily Mail and co are obsessed with running down the country, any excuse to spread some anti-EU hate
The failure is that of education, theres a reason that the majority of brexies had low qualifications...
and education is seen as the responsibility of the left (for some reason right wingers prefer preaching to teaching) so yes it is 'our' failure to an extent
The argument seems to be people are naturally xenophobic nationalists and the "cultural left" by trying to stop people being xenophobic nationalists only causes them to do this to a greater degree.Not sure I'd call it very good.
An attempt to intellectualise a Daily Mail opinion piece really.
Spot on.
On a more obviously "let the remain side have a go at appealing to the lowest common denominator" was Hesseltine's little attempt the other week. Pathetic.
The Nick Clegg in Ebbw Vale programme was truly depressing. There was an awful lot of eulogising going on about the old steelworks, but I bet when the steelworks was fully operational the locals would have been bellyaching about pollution, blot on the landscape, health concerns etc.
I'm not saying this to be nasty, but what it shows is the extent that nostalgia for an era that never really existed influenced the older and more bitter people. Ahhh the 1950s. They were great weren't they? Rationing until the middle of the decade, brutal discipline in schools and killer fogs caused by incredible levels of pollution. It is an illusion that the Brexshit side preyed upon. Village greens with cricketers in impeccable whites, with impeccable white faces with a squadron of gleaming spitfires roaring overhead, piloted by smiling heroes with impeccably white scarves and impeccably white faces. It is like punk. It never happened to 99% of the population but there is a strong desire to 'get back' to those times.
killer fogs caused by incredible levels of pollution
I read that as 'killer frogs caused by incredible levels of pollution'. But you are right, I'm not so sure why 1950 is seen as a utopia by so many, guess basking in the warm glow of victory.
Dannyh not sure where you are from but I grew up in the valleys 9 miles south of Ebbw Vale and my mum was a nurse at the works. The works were so large that they had a hospital on site, it was demolished for the new train station, built with EU money. People would love the plant to come back, it gave jobs, pride, community and a social cohesion to the area. At the time Environmental concerns hadn't really been appreciated, the River Ebbw ran a different colour each day, and was dead as a door nail. I am sure there would be a lot of disquiet about pollution, Port Talbot has spent millions in addressing this problem. The Ebbw now is full of life which is something I always find amazing.
In contrast I would say there is no great want to reopen the mines.
I bet when the steelworks was fully operational the locals would have been bellyaching about pollution, blot on the landscape, health concerns etc.
I'll take that bet. The ambition of most of the South Wales people I worked with in the 80's was that their children would get a steady job in the nearest big plant/industrial concern to secure their future.
does anyone now think that Brexit will re-open and steelworks?!!?
The EU has a 75% anti-dumping tariff on chinese steel, the leavers favourite WTO option would offer no such protection
No Kimbers of course not 😆 my mum sadly has early dementia and last summer we went for a drive up the valley so she could see where she was born and the places of her youth and life. She was amazed that there is nothing of the works left at all. Well the main Office is still there and the south gate. She got quite upset, where do the people work now? was a question she asked.
The Nick Clegg in Ebbw Vale programme was truly depressing.
does anyone now think that Brexit will re-open and steelworks?!!?
Strongly recommend watching that piece.
No, the people asked didn't think leaving would get the steelworks reopened.
They voted because they wanted to protest about lost jobs, but were realistic about the vote solving anything.
They were angry about EU funds only making a "cosmetic" difference, rather than creating jobs.
Still weird that the anger isn't aimed more at those that could actually choose to employ people in the area (Welsh and UK governments and, most obviously, private companies).
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39425373 ]Link to Newsnight piece[/url]
Edit: oh, and of course normal anti FoM and ECJ nonsense, despite the area being pretty much untouched by either.
I bet when the steelworks was fully operational the locals would have been bellyaching about pollution, blot on the landscape, health concerns etc.
One only need to look at the support there was when they were closing [ or mines for that matter]or the support the nuclear industry has when it alone supports the entire local economy to see that the reality is very much different from what you describe.
The people there relied on the industry and very few wanted it to close as they knew the results for the community.
I do agree that everyone seems to think it was better in the past and many want us to return to both a time that never really existed and one that we cannot ever really get back. We cannot be isolationist[ I mean stand alone the RW still want trade] as we once were nor be the global player we once were and without our friends in a large bloc we are small fry able to be bullied by other more [ economically] powerful neighbours /partners/trade opportunities. Brexit will most likely show who has the real economic power in this negotiation and trying to trade security for trade is not likely to help using either the short or the long term
the breit process willd demonstarte this pretty well as they
Kelvin, so basically the welsh workers were ****s who knew their vote wouldnt do anything other than take jobs away from other people - but decided to vote leave out of spite.
If I ever meet one in London looking for a job, I am going to be mightily tempted to tell them to **** off back to where they came from.
The steel works were wanted, BUT, they were inefficient, too many staff etc. Why did the ship yards go bust, because they didn't move with the times, and others countries could build cheaper.
Are the Cornish tin mines, welsh coal mines, steel works et al coming back, doubtful. Labour costs and markets aren't helpful.
The UK has been screwed by the UK, not by Brussels or anywhere else. In some ways winning the second world war was a bad thing. There was no reality check, no realisation that the past was over and that a new world was ahead. There was no need to come to terms with the past. The UK suffers from a massive amnesia about how it was so powerful. The narrative that we only had HK on a 99year lease for example that Jamba mentioned. Reality is that the UK beat the Chinese in the opium wars and got HK as part of the settlement. A similar situation that applies to Gibraltar.
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Could the UK ever compete with a Bangladeshi breakers yard?
I can remember a H&S chat with a staff member at the steel works, deaths were common, and he remembered going to tell a bloke wife that her husband wasn't coming home. A situation he never wanted to be in again.
That red tape, that is the red tape that keeps people alive in many industries. We can scrap it and back to the days of sillicosis, of industrial accidents.
But the deaths were always to someone else, that is why people remember the way they do.
And then they will charm you in the same way by suggesting your wife should do the same and then you can both laugh at what charming warm individuals you both areIf I ever meet one in London looking for a job, I am going to be mightily tempted to tell them to **** off back to where they came from.
I tried to make a point, but did it clumsily.
What I was really trying to get at was how easy it is for manipulative politicians to create an illusory golden era. Where [u]everything[/u] was somehow better. They then focus on "what has changed?" They give a nudge in the direction of immigration and liberal conspiracy and let the public run with it. Get the Daily Heil et al to provide a daily dose of malevolence and drag people further into a spiral of insularity and anger and Bob's your uncle.
It is the same in many areas. Not just what is the romanticised notion of heavy industry (steel, coal etc), but also hosiery, shoemaking etc. It wasn't a dig at the people of Ebbw Vale (I shouldn't have used the term 'bellyaching'), but an expression of how depressingly easy it is to manipulate people. Membership of the EU is one of the best ways this country can insulate itself from a race to the bottom with the more rapidly 'developing' world, but that was rejected. Largely on the basis of lies.
@danny nothing in the Leave campaign was about the past. It was all about a better future outside the EU. The Remain campaign was about the social and financial Aageddon that woukd befall us if we left whilst saying the EU was flawed and we should change it.
I'm not looking to "go back" to anything. I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.
I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.
An extra layer of tinfoil on your hat would have saved us all a lot of trouble.
I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.
#ProjectFear
Tom W1987 you said on another thread you like drugs, I suggest you stop taking them before you comment on Welsh workers.
it might even had stopped him endlessly playing the race card and demonising immigrants [ not the jewish ones just the Muslamic ones] whilst telling us all how utterly wonderful it would all be in his Brave New World
All you needed was more optimism than facts
This has never been a challenge for Jambers on any issue 😉
Its true to say that Dave doing project fear did indeed backfire as by the end the only think not likely to be financially ruined was my kids piggy bank They overstated it massively but everyone knows we will be economically worse off afterwards except for the most unhinged of Brexiters who are powered by ignorance and hope.
When reality slaps them they will blame the EU and "remoaners" when the obvious seed they planted blooms into the obvious mess everyone predicted.
tell them to **** off back to where they came from.
Tom's answer to everything.
@ Jamby.
Nothing explicitly about a return to the past?
Nothing about making Britain great [u]again[/u]?
Sorry mate, to pretend that there wasn't an attempt to create a fantasy 'old days' to aspire to return to is just bullshit.
So the chap who bankrolled Brexit hasn't done with us yet
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/arron-banks-interview-brexit-ukip-far-right-trump-putin-russia ]Arron Banks: ‘Brexit was a war. We won. There’s no turning back now’[/url]
What I was really trying to get at was how easy it is for manipulative politicians to create an illusory golden era. Where everything was somehow better. They then focus on "what has changed?"
You mean like how the lefties whinge on about Thatcher?
ninfan, Prince of Whataboutery
You mean like how the lefties whinge on about Thatcher?
Well....
She was a bit of a bitch you know..
DRJ, No, it's entirely relevant - where the hell do you think the Brexiteers learned their tactics?
The Brexit campaign didn't operate in a vacuum, it was Born out of New Labour failure to take everyone with them, it was born out of the lefts deliberate use of immigration to "rub the rights nose in diversity"
Start taking some responsibility yourselves, the collateral damage that the left caused in their campaign to destroy the right was entirely to blame for Brexit.
Funny, I thought Brexit was a far-right thing.
Funny, I thought Brexit was a far-right thing.
You heard it on the night - "the council estates have voted"
You mean like how the lefties whinge on about Thatcher?
Yawn you boring oaf
DRJ, No, it's entirely relevant - where the hell do you think the Brexiteers learned their tactics?
Yes, of course, that makes perfect sense now you put it like that. Brexit is the fault of the Labour party and nothing to do with the ruling Tories. Silly of me not to realise before.
You heard it on the night - "the council estates have voted"
You know those George Crosses flying on council estates? They're not left wing homes.
As you will see here:
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.html ]7 graphs that explain how Brexit won[/url]
Leave was largely right wing.
You are Emily Thornberry, and I claim my £5
They're not left wing homes.
Left and right are not the same as everyone thought, they are not really relevant in the modern world political parties have not really caught up yet. Both left and right are coalitions fighting against each other to hold onto power.
You are Emily Thornberry, and I claim my £5
Not at all, merely pointing out that council estates like all other areas contain a range of political affiliations.
Tom's answer to everything.
A few hundred pages back, you lot were proclaiming you'd vote against the interests of the demographic that was mostly responsible for Brexit. 😆
That's the world that Brexit ushered in, one in which you look out for your own clan. My clan is London and the southern tech hubs - with their diverse adaptable populations and their equally diverse economies. 😆 😈
I wouldn't actually do that, but it will tickle me no end if Northerners and the Welsh have to start emigrating to London after Brexit.
You know those George Crosses flying on council estates? They're not left wing homes.
But of course, they're not far right either - oh no, they are 'patriotic'. 🙄
Insularity, xenophobia and (to a lesser extent, but still importantly) racism played pivotal roles in the campaign. The posters that were used were absolutely disgraceful. What was even more disgraceful was that they 'worked'.
Again, there are sweeping generalizations flying around here, and it is very easy to get drawn into the game, but ask yourself this question and answer honestly.
What reception do you think a couple of British born Hindu chaps would get in one of those Council estate boozers if they went in and ordered a pint?
You know those George Crosses flying on council estates? They're not left wing homes.
But of course, they're not far right either - oh no, they are 'patriotic'.
It's entirely possible to be a card carrying union man, believe in all of the good solid old left stuff and hate immigrants. It's also possible to be a free market, union crushing business man and be fully on board with open borders.
Tom and his mates, cor blimey guvMy clan is London
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all this is my clan is seems to be most of the problem...
It is.
But they won't register it as a problem until they've experienced it themselves.
I'll add a more specific pub.
What reaction do you think a British born Hindu would get in the pub in this story?
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39470487 [/url]
These substantial pockets of violent xenophobia and racism exist, folks. There will also be plenty of golf club bars where wheezing old farts will be saying stuff like "they should have separate buses in the first place".
It is an undercurrent that has been shamelessly tapped into by the Brexies.
We could start a new type of hate?
Could we use 'Leaver' or similar terms as an insult to offend half the voting public perhaps.. now there's a thought!
EDIT: Damn beaten to it a few hundred pages ago.
😳 complaining about hate while spreading hate 😳
These substantial pockets of violent xenophobia and racism exist, folks. There will also be plenty of golf club bars where wheezing old farts will be saying stuff like "they should have separate buses in the first place".It is an undercurrent that has been shamelessly tapped into by the Brexies.
If it was that simple, then why did Two thirds of those describing themselves as Asian vote to remain, as did three quarters of black voters, but Asian communities in Bradford and Slough vote overwhelmingly to leave
(White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%)
Edit: [i]A number of jurisdictions with large South Asian populations delivered Leave votes, including Luton (56.5% Leave), Hillingdon (56.4% Leave), Slough (54.3% Leave) and Bradford (54.2% Leave). All have South Asian populations of 25% and above. It’s not unreasonable to think that such Leave votes could not have been delivered without a significant number of Asian voters opting for Brexit.
And more recently released ward-level data from the West London boroughs of Ealing and Hounslow provides strong support for the idea that Asian voters were more inclined towards Leave than the polls suggested. In these two multi-ethnic boroughs, non-white ethnicity was associated with voting Leave, defying the wider national trend.[/i]
Source, LSE http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/
Because the lot up in Bradford don't like Eastern European immigrants as they assume they are racist.
The lot in London have learnt to get on with them as they are actually exposed to European immigration.
As is always the case with prejudice, I work for an Indian company who are very pro Brexit because they think that it means one they - they'll be able to abuse the Tier 2 system again and bring in their lower castes from their provinces, keeping it Indian, in the family/province and cheap. It buys votes back home.
Now then, are we still doomed? Is the sky going to fall in on our heads?
Lets have it right. those folk from Bradford vote leave because they really wanted an Independence for Yorkshire referendum. It nowt to do with the EU they want the right to be tight in a free Yorkshire.
You've got to admire perseverance
They were angry about EU funds only making a "cosmetic" difference, rather than creating jobs.
I watched that Ebbw Vale thing too. The commenters didn't seem to understand that for any government to invest in your area you need a strong economy. The EU gave us a strong economic boost.
I think almost everyone in this debate is building arguments around the EU to rationalise their existing sentiments.
A lot of Asian voters voted leave in the hope it would open uk the UK for their families and friends rather than Eastern Europeans. No more complicated than that and in general as a community they value EU citizenship less than other folks.
It is interesting that the Indian government would only consider a trade deal in there was FOM - now that would send the kippers nuts.
Onwards and upwards, the world awaits
And a war with Spain. Oh joy!
It is interesting that the Indian government would only consider a trade deal in there was FOM - now that would send the kippers nuts.
It would, they want to carpet bag the UK like they did with Sri Lanka and the Tamils - partly out of revenge and partly to make money.
And now we don't have the umbrella of the EU to protect us.
Brexit was born out of the EU being totally sh.t
Just what I said. You only think it's shit because you already don't trust those foreigners and don't want them messing in YOUR country. You see them as different.
Personally I love feeling close to my neighbours and I love the fact that my offices are full of people from all over Europe who feel at home here.
What's the Spanish phrase? Mi casa es su casa.
Lobbing cruise missiles over Gibraltar would have me in hysterics and glued to the tv though - Chris Morris couldn't have made this shit up. I was jokingly saying the EU should try to take Gibraltar a few dozen pages back.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/eu-will-not-go-soft-on-gibraltar-brexit-talks-diplomats-say-spain ]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/eu-will-not-go-soft-on-gibraltar-brexit-talks-diplomats-say-spain[/url]
going really well then!