[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

so Germany which has 15% more peopel than us does better than that

Doesn't Germany (like many EU states) levy VAT on food though? So does the graph just show that where food is cheap relative to disposable incomes there is more waste?

[i]Doesn't Germany (like many EU states) levy VAT on food though? So does the graph just show that where food is cheap relative to disposable incomes there is more waste? [/I]

TBH a more likely reason is how it's measured and reported - I mean seriously, do you know what percentage of food is throw away in your household?

So its now been asked in parliament whether laundered Russian money helped fund Brexit or Trump campaigns

So far no indication that they did , only the Front National is known to have received money this way.

kimbers - Member

So its now been asked in parliament whether laundered Russian money helped fund Brexit or Trump campaigns

So far no indication that they did

Is there any indication that Juncker personally gained from allowing big business to avoid billions in corp. taxes?

Is there any indication that Juncker personally gained from allowing big business to avoid billions in corp. taxes?

no idea, I imagine so

but Ill bet that junker being rich didnt please Putin half as much as Nigel Farage & the Brexiters achieving exactly what he wanted them to....

@cheddar. Correct Germany and most EU states have VAT on food and full rate VAT on gas/electric too. They tried a few years ago to "harmonise" VAT ie get us to charge it too.

Junker definitely benefitted personally via a successful carear and then EU Commission President Role (€500k pa less only 10% tax and a €500k refirement present. Plus generous pension, his pension from just his time as President is €50k pa and he's only had the job 5 years). All of those things he would have been unikley to land without his "hugely successful" period turning Luxembourg into the EU's richest nation.

Kimbers, cleaning up STW towers earlier...

[IMG] [/IMG]

sbob - Member
Kimbers, cleaning up STW towers earlier...

Its Ok I think 6jobs Osborne is also quite legit

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/england-s-idea-of-unionism-is-not-shared-in-the-rest-of-uk-1.3017660#.WNDBUzUU194.twitter

another look at brexit and scottish independence.

Sooohh.. how is going for you working poor brexit voters? Life's getting expensive, interest rates in the way up, inflation outpacing wages, cheap food disappearing.

Still never mind we might be getting border control back, Loads of jobs in the NHS, picking veg in Cambridge, Amazon warehouse. You wanted the 1950s and you are sure as shit going to get em.

I could hardly stop laughing watching the news today, anyway have to go now as I will be adding £100 a day to our day rate - it's Brexit don't you know, what can we do I have managed to keep it down to a 10% rise.

Just looking at those food waste figures.
I went to Eurostat to get the UK figure and it said 14.3 million tons. The UK population is 64.1 million. That works out at 220kg of waste per person per year - 4.2kg per person per week!!!!! WHAT?

The last time I wasted ANY food was Christmas after too many whiskeys. Even then it wasn't a complete waste, I had eaten and enjoyed it first.

slowoldman - Member

Just looking at those food waste figures.
I went to Eurostat to get the UK figure and it said 14.3 million tons. The UK population is 64.1 million. That works out at 220kg of waste per person per year - 4.2kg per person per week!!!!! WHAT?

The last time I wasted ANY food was Christmas after too many whiskeys. Even then it wasn't a complete waste, I had eaten and enjoyed it first.

Remember that figure includes all wastage- production, processing, transit, and disposed-of-unsold, which iirc the uk is a world leader at. Household waste only makes up about half.

[I]molgrips - Member

You can get red or pink bananas, also bluey green and even purple[/I]

Purple Bananas?

Shirley you jest?

Loads of jobs in the NHS

You forgot there won't be an NHS, bit socialist you see, in the new red tape free red white and blue brexit world it is simply a un-necessary burden,

@slow Sweden has less "waste" as they burn everything* generating heat/energy so it counts as recycling

*everything is an exaggeration but the point stands

Inflation has been below target for 3.5 years, a period above seems only normal.

@kimbers FN borrow money from Russian banks as all the French banks refuse to deal with them for political reasons. Russia is not "giving money" to FN. Asked a question in Parkiament how gloriously vague and open to abuse that it is. just like a newspaper headline with the word "could" or a big number with "up to" written in front of it.

@sbob did you hear about Schultz .. hired his German mate as an advisor, worked in Berlin for 18 months but claimed a daily allowance of €300+ as his normal place of work was Brussels. Just another day on the EU gravy train.

You forgot there won't be an NHS, bit socialist you see, in the new red tape free red white and blue brexit world it is simply a un-necessary burden,

Of course, only the EU member states have public health services. They don't exist anywhere else in the world.

Of course, only the EU member states have public health services. They don't exist anywhere else in the world.

It's not about Brexit, it's about who Brexit has put in charge and their feeling they can do what they like.

And if Scotland/NI leave, they will. Likely they will anyway.

(Oh and affordability after the economy is shafted).

@sbob did you hear about Schultz .. hired his German mate as an advisor, worked in Berlin for 18 months but claimed a daily allowance of €300+ as his normal place of work was Brussels. Just another day on the EU gravy train.

Yes I did, but it's ok as I'm sure he paid (the special EU employee reduced rate) tax on it.
I'm just astounded at the total lack of interest in doing anything other than praising the EU; there's no criticism at all.
Leaves a horrible taste of "dear leader" in the mouth.

I'm just astounded at the total lack of interest in doing anything other than praising the EU; there's no criticism at all.

The EU has plenty of flaws, it's blind to how 'freedom of movement' is redefined as 'immigration' to many in this country, Juncker certainly comes over high and mighty and didn't help the campaign I feel.

But all human enterprises are flawed. Fundamentally it's a good thing, it's helped western Europe to unparalleled prosperity and to sustained peace for 70 years. This has never happened before. Never. Happened. Before. Previously, nationalism cost millions of lives.

The UK is (was) a dominant player in the EU, we should be in it striving to fix it not leaving it in a huff. Leaving is idiocy.

@sbob did you hear about Schultz .. hired his German mate as an advisor, worked in Berlin for 18 months but claimed a daily allowance of €300+ as his normal place of work was Brussels. Just another day on the EU gravy train.

Sounds like the average MP really, so your point is rather irrelevant i might say.

I'm just astounded at the total lack of interest in doing anything other than praising the EU; there's no criticism at all.

There has been - this has been brought up before.

The EU is flawed in lots of things, not least the Euro, but the fundamental concept of co-operation and integration is a good one. I'm not after a European super-state, but whilst the motto might be 'ever closer integration' I don't think there's enough appetite for a super-state to make it happen.

I don't give up on a relationship just because it has problems, I don't give up on project I want to see happen just because it has problems.

I want to feel close to my neighbours, I want to know, work with, live with my geographical neighbours. I want freedom to move around, to enjoy and experience my continent without arbitrary laws stopping me. I want to learn from my neighbours.

"Goldman Sachs to move hundreds of staff out of London due to Brexit"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/21/goldman-sachs-staff-london-brexit-frankfurt-paris

The banks will never again have all their eggs in one basket (assets exposed to a single political system).

This thread is very cathartic!

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/jubilant-brexiters-shitting-themselves-20170321124592

molgrips - Member

There has been - this has been brought up before.

You're kidding no one.
Take the last couple of pages as evidence;
a post criticizing a small aspect of the EU was made.
The replies:
Justified it by pointing things out that are more shit.
Ignored and used to vilify Brexit.
Twice.
Ignored and ridiculed by the class clown.
Defended using the most ridiculous anecdote.
Are silly.
Me included, because I know that it is pointless to be critical of the EU here.

Point out what a **** Juncker is?
Best ignored.
Mention the demonstrable EU gravy train?
Nothing to see here guv'nor.

Cathartic?
It's pathetic.

Apparently this is going around Brussels.

[img] [/img]

Inflation has been below target for 3.5 years, a period above seems only normal.

If it was driven by internal factors like increased wages then fine but its not its imported inflation.

double post. Put it down to EU inefficiency.

See below

Sooner we drive the Brexies into the sea the better, sbob. 😉

Seriously though I thought from your posts on here over the last day or so you were a remain supporter being sarcastic.
You weren't really making the best argument for Brexit - mind you no one has made a good argument for it really have they.

Very selective reading if you think there's been no criticism of the EU, but as has been pointed out we avoided most of the bad but kept the good, now we've got....?

Take the last couple of pages as evidence;

I will freely admit that there has been no criticism on the last few pages. However there has been acknowledgement of the problems all through the thread. I remember posting some of it myself. Feel free to go back and search if you like.

726 pages, so the last couple not a great sample.

Brexit statistics!

Remainers know the EU has its flaws. It's far from perfect.

But I have yet to hear a leaver agree it has any good points, or that Brexit has any drawbacks.

The fundamentalism is on the leave side.

Never trust a fundamentalist.

I think it is interesting to look at page #1 of this thread. Most Remainers are very aware of the flaws of the EU. It is hard to find anyone back there being enthusiastic about the organisation. It is what will follow when we leave that is the problem.

From the front page.

1. Britons still have to show passports when travelling to Europe - "free movement" is not there for us anyway.

Forsooth said leaver doth not understand ye olde free movement, confusing it with ye olde Schengen!

Doh!

Sbob, you are sounding chewk-like and a bit paranoid

Of course the EU needs reforming, what public body doesnt, especially one this size.

Its moot now, thanks to the Brexies we are outsiders looking in, we are a less influential nation.

Yeah junker is still a tosser, if only we'd elected MEPs that could be arsed to try and make things better, instead of electing kippers- the worst attendance and highest expenses...
Both Tory and UKIP MEPs voted against the recent tightening of tax evasion rules....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/these-are-the-british-meps-who-voted-against-plans-to-crack-down-on-corporate-tax-evasion-a6982271.html

Here are the British MEPs who voted against the report:

Conservatives:

Richard Ashworth

Amjad Bashir

Daniel Dalton

Ian Duncan

Jacqueline Foster

Ashley Fox

Syed Kamall

Andrew Lewer

Emma McClarkin

Anthea McIntyre

James Nicholson

Kay Swinburne

Charles Tannock

Geoffrey Van Orden

(Note: all Conservatives MEPs not listed either did not vote or were absent)

Ukip:

William Earl of Dartmouth

Jonathan Arnott

James Carver

David Coburn

Nathan Gill

Roger Helmer

Mike Hookem

Jill Seymour

Steven Woolfe

(Note: all UKIP MEPs not listed either did not vote or were absent)

DUP

Diane Dodds

Is this really Jambalaya of this parish 😉 (sorry couldn't resist)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/brexiter-not-happy-until-europe-a-smouldering-ruin-20161117117270

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/21/pro-brexit-ministers-relaxed-about-leaving-eu-without-trade-deal

oh f***ing wonderful, what can possibly go wrong with trading on WTO terms with the EU, there goes the farming industry for a starter.

That article also has the prediction that Jamba says he categorically knows hasn't happened.

In the run-up to the referendum, Treasury research suggested reverting to WTO rules would knock between 5.4% and 9.5% off GDP after 15 years, and blow a £45bn hole in the public finances — though the basis of those forecasts was fiercely contested.

kimbers - Member

Sbob, you are sounding chewk-like and a bit paranoid

That's bollocks and you know it.
It's playing the man and not the ball. I'm sure you also know that, and I'm sure people know why people do that. 🙂
Fortunately I'm not precious.

Is there a particular post of yours that is critical of the EU that you are thinking of kimbers?
I'd search, but it doesn't work properly and I can only think of the many posts that served only to utilize the phrase "little Englander".
😉
It's no bother, you've proved my point with your above post; you just couldn't help yourself!

The sum of kimber's EU critique -

Yeah junker is still a tosser

The eating of the pudding -

if only we'd elected MEPs that could be arsed to try and make things better, instead of electing kippers- the worst attendance and highest expenses...
Both Tory and UKIP MEPs voted against the recent tightening of tax evasion rules....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/these-are-the-british-meps-who-voted-against-plans-to-crack-down-on-corporate-tax-evasion-a6982271.html

How'd ya like them bananas? 😆

Sbob, it pains me greatly that I do not meet your standards of objectivity regarding the EU.

I think the problem here is that you are not making sense.

As i see it you are complaining that the EU has rules on grading vegetables.

I'm really struggling to see why this grinds your gears so

Like the rest of us cultist remainers I actually thought you were joking when you raised the bendy bananas, I'm still not sure if your taking the piss or not!

Jamba and the rest of the leavers. You gave me pelters when I said the financial services would move out of london saying it was just contingency planning. Well its started now and we are still two years from leaving

That sounds like a good name for a band:

Jamba and the leavers

TJ - surely it's Jambaleaver, but on the band theme...
First album - Brexit religion
Difficult second album - Keeping the lights on (this one was s flop unfortunately)

Sbob, find me a ball to play and I'll play it, but you don't have a coherent argument between you which makes it difficult to play the ball.
The Brexies are good at moaning and saying what they don't like, but I've yet to hear a constructive thought or see a constructive deed from any of them.

I'll repeat my challenge. I told you several times what I'm doing to try and sort out this unholy mess you Brexies have got us into. But what are you Brexies doing?

Twice I've asked and twice the reply has been silence, which I take to mean nothing. You're just sat on you bums moaning about how we all need to pull together.

Useless the lot of you.

I think the problem here is that you are not making sense.

I make so much sense even chewk gets it.

As i see it you are complaining that the EU has rules on grading vegetables.

Wasn't me that brought up the subject, I was just bringing some balance to the table, with the facts. That they are bollocks is my opinion.

I'm really struggling to see why this grinds your gears so

Because all too often the forum acts as a massive playground for a big group of bullies, and I don't like bullies.
Like the retarded dwarf, it's neither clever nor funny, and it puts huge swathes of people off this forum.

Do something positive sbob and I promise I'll praise you for it.
But please stop moaning.

Because all too often the forum acts as a massive playground for a big group of bullies, and I don't like bullies.

Like the retarded dwarf

........ 😳

Goldman's contingency plan (not waiting to see what negotiations may or may not bring)

200 jobs moving from London including a chunk to New York (because Europe is very unattractive). 6,000 jobs remaining and GS reiterated London was a very important centre for them. So a Brexit cost of 200/6000 - just tye sort of thing I was saying, just move a few sales people. The deals still get done in London.

@welsh absolutely no offence taken just in case you where wondering, which you probably weren't 🙂

@igm - the Brexit "GDP cost" was based on an assumption of no new trad deals with anyone and it was still a ascenario where GDP grew but by less than if we stayed. The scenario did not include a eurozone / Greek / Italian driven EU recession.

We have tried to make the EU better. Their idea of better isn't ours, in fact its the absolute opposite. The "Remain amd Reform" argument during the Referendum was a very weak and ineffective one.

@igm - the Brexit "GDP cost" was based on an assumption of no new trad deals with anyone and it was still a ascenario where GDP grew but by less than if we stayed. The scenario did not include a eurozone / Greek / Italian driven EU recession.

I know. I still want my lottery numbers from you if you're that good at predicting the future.
We haven't got any trade deals negotiated yet and we aren't 15 years down the line. You are still channelling Mystic Meg. 😉

PS - I know the EU wasn't your idea of something good (isn't?), but I quite like it. It's been very good for my fathers generation, my generation and I was hoping for it to be good for my children's generation too - until the Brexies wrecked that.

Brexit "GDP cost" was based on an assumption of no new trad deals with anyone

Jambafact alert!
[img] [/img]

https://www.ft.com/content/c15cd060-0550-11e6-96e5-f85cb08b0730

This central estimate is based on securing a free-trade-in-goods relationship with the EU such as the one that has almost been agreed with Canada. A closer, Norwegian-style relationship would impart a 3.8 per cent hit to gross domestic product while a looser trade relationship under World Trade Organisation rules would lower GDP by 7.5 per cent.

Besides Its not just about a trade deal....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-to-cost-britain-more-than-5-of-gdp-by-2030-say-city-economists-a7541616.html

"This mainly hinges on a reduction in long-term net migration to 105,000 a year and sustained trade diversion through non-tariff barrier differentiation and heightened administrative burdens from a loss of customs union,"

sbob - Member
I think the problem here is that you are not making sense.
I make so much sense even chewk gets it.

Hmm I think they are basically trolls, chewk, Ninfan and to an extent, jambalaya, and it's not bullying it's thier refusal to answer questions directly, and the tendency to deflect the conversion by changing the subject slightly and start a new debate rather than attempting a rebuttal.

Sbob, find me a ball to play and I'll play it

I hadn't accused you of not.

but you don't have a coherent argument between you

I'm not bipolar. 😕

Though I am a very eurosceptical remainer.

Post deleted due to comprehension failure.
Currently lapsing in and out of consciousness with a high fever, forgive me Christians!

Moo

mattyfez - Member
Hmm I think they are basically trolls, chewk, Ninfan and to an extent, jambalaya, and it's not bullying it's thier refusal to answer questions directly, and the tendency to deflect the conversion by changing the subject slightly and start a new debate rather than attempting a rebuttal.

😆 Ninfan & Jambalaya always give you lot the answers yet you lot simply refuse to accept their answers no matter how much efforts they put it to help you understand.

You need to accept alternative views dudes. Let it go dudes, let it go. Accept that things have changed for at least one or two generations.

Accept that things have changed for at least one or two generations.

PS I'm assuming it was on the basis of xenophobia because that's the only argument the Brexies have put forward that isn't instantly blown out of the water. Like Jamba said a page or so ago, it was swivel eyed loons worrying about immigration. I wholeheartedly support him in that analysis.

You need to accept alternative views dudes.

Alternative views, great let's debate it

Alternative facts, not so much

I grew up being told to f*** off back to Ireland, the only thing brexit achieves is to enable the racists. I suppose I should be grateful today's racists seem more concerned by poles and muslims than Irish.

Accept that things have changed for at least one or two generations.

That would be the best years of my little girl's life then?

No. That's my daughter's future. They can go **** themselves.

They need to get over us not getting over it.

What is irreversible is that the country is divided and each half thinks the other are ignorant ****s. I find myself aligned with the demonstrably smarter, educated, affluent and younger half. (Though I am not most of those things).

It's alright you lot squabbling on here, my mate Bob from Hartlepool still hasn't got his £30k fork lift job! And he is getting wound up over his diesal bill to get to work and back. He wants to know when we are going to sort it for him (by we he means politicians, business owners) as he is prepared to take action (sit on his arse for longer than usual)

Bob's your problem not Goldman Sachs.

But how come this forum is so misaligned with the supposed "will of the people"? That's interesting.

oldman is this Bob? (3 mins in).

6 kids, social housing, complaining because he can't get a welding job to cover his costs, it's all the immigrants fault you see?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07k7m4x/panorama-why-we-voted-to-leave-britain-speaks

In the early days I tried really hard to have empathy with the leave vote, surely I'd got it wrong and had missed something.

But then I watched that doc and it turns out they're just a bunch of losers. My attitude hardened considerably.

But how come this forum is so misaligned with the supposed "will of the people"? That's interesting.

Well, if you are here you can use a computer, type, and read 🙂

Also, I guess a younger crowd.

And, if there was another referendum tomorrow, what would the 'will of the people' be?

Mattjg nails it for me, the lack of education of all types allied with a "world owes me a living" attitude is seriously damaging this country and it's relationships both internally and externally. This Brexit bollocks is all well and good untill the reality kicks in - someone has to pay for this (regardless of your opinion) There is going to be a very big cost for an extended period. The real question I which writes the cheque? Sure shit not going the rich folk? But my guess is it will be a typical triangle with the impact reducing the further up that triangle you are - best start plotting your position (maybe a Gardner magic quadrant is required)

mattjg

I think those debating on here are more politically aware than the average STWer or member of the public and its clear that the more informed you are and the less xenophobic you are the more likely you are to oppose leaving the EU

Actually I think a lot of active forum posters aren't really very young. I'm 48. But that's not the only indicator of brexiteering. It's well known that cyclists are generally more intelligent and wealthier than average.

I think those debating on here are more politically aware than the average STWer or member of the public and its clear that the more informed you are and the less xenophobic you are the more likely you are to oppose leaving the EU

But we all get one vote. Smart or stupid, tolerant or closed, lazy or a grafter. We all get one vote.

Extrapolate it out and "democracy" is broken. When an issue comes up that actually gets the habitual non-voters out of bed and to the polling station, it gets ****ed up.

And sexier thecaptain. Don't forget sexier.

By the way "Bob" referred to above - can we export him?
Presumably if we're making Britain great again and establishing the second British empire, transportation is back on the cards?
More hardworking Poles fewer Bobs please - now that would make Britain great.

As I have said before, democracy relies on an informed electorate. I don't care too much if you believe the tories or labour will have the best policies, I care that you can put forward a coherent argument as to why you support those policies.

oldmanmtb, one of my issues, is that we need to pay more tax as a society to pay for pensions, nhs, roads, education etc etc.

But due to Brexit those in the middle will now have to pay more tax, will have to spend more to cover a multitude of tariffs, but gain nothing from it all. It will just mean more civil servants, more red tape, yet less investment in services that actually matter.

As I have said before, democracy relies on an informed electorate. I don't care too much if you believe the tories or labour will have the best policies, I care that you can put forward a coherent argument as to why you support those policies.

You cannot expect everyone to become informed and even less so to understand the complexities of politics, economics etc,.
So why ask them to vote, because it is democracy...

Indeed mrmo

One of the reasons the last scottish independence referendum was widely considered to be a great example of democracy - 'cos the voters certainly were well informed

contrast that to the EU referendum where they certainly were not.

Tell Bob, he wont be getting another job driving a fork truck as that sort of job is now done by a 'robot'. It's alright though as he'll recieve a (low) universal basic income, whilst being prescribed anti-depressants to manage his anxiety from not working and 'having no worth'.

whilst being prescribed anti-depressants to manage his anxiety from not working and 'having no worth'.

Thank god he has his world-striding English identity to fall back on.

You cannot expect everyone to become informed and even less so to understand the complexities of politics, economics etc,.
So why ask them to vote, because it is democracy...

which is why we live in a representative democracy and rely on politicians to make informed decisions on our behalf. Then again FPTP has in many ways created the situation we are in. When was the last time we had a government that received over half the electorates support. Yet look at the changes that have been forced through over the last 30 years. Now throw into the mix the claims that Brussels is the problem repeated time and time again.

Very simple question, if Brussels is the problem why is Germany, which has had to go through reunification, in a better place than the UK?

It's quite ironic that Brexit will mean more bureaucracy for the dUK than before

@mattjg... Democracy is a great concept. I am very happy that my vote carries the same weight as that of the PM and "Bob". What I am not happy with is a system of governance based on a first past the post system that offers no compromise for the (more often than not) 60% or so of the country that did not choose their representative in parliament. Very few things in life are black and white. Most fall into the grey areas in between. Politics and the effective running of a democracy should recognise this. Forcing people to make binary choices whether in referendums or in the election of their representatives is NOT good democracy. I think politicians should be elected to proportionally represent the views of the electorate and to then argue, debate, rant and rave on issues chosen by the electorate, and then to reach the most appropriate compromise possible within the prevailing social/political/economical/environmental etc framework.

That for me would be democracy.

But then that is a big ask and I have been up all night so brain a bit fuddled 🙂

Haha, beaten to the point by Mrmo by a minute 🙂

mind you, look at the slating the Lib Dems got for ditching the tuition fees promise.

If you have a coalition government by its very nature you have to compromise. You can put forward your manifesto, but if the parties don't match exactly....