[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

This was always going to be the outcome DrJ - the British want British jobs for British people - they're just unwilling to pay the tax to fund it. They'll then moan about the level of care in the NHS and half of them will be too thick to realise their choices are the ones that are destroying the health care service.

**** them all.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/29/uk-in-2030-older-more-unequal-and-blighted-by-brexit-report-predicts

The IPPR also predicts a more diverse country, with the non-white proportion rising from 14% in 2011 to 21% by 2030 and to more than a third of the population by 2050.

It forecasts that 2m jobs in retail will disappear by 2030 and 600,000 will go in manufacturing.

😆

It's going to be like New York in the 70s. 😀

It's going to be like New York in the 70s.

does that include 4 times the murder rate?

Well this is a all going swimmingly

All going to Hunts plan, run the NHS into the ground then privatise

does that include 4 times the murder rate?

Maybe, when we're all fighting over who gets to sell drugs to make up for the loss of jobs to automation and increasing wealth disparity. Look on the bright side though, maybe Slough will get burnt to the ground like the Bronx did.

I'm going to move to Canada I think...

Well when people get desperate crime increases.

Maybe, when we're all fighting over who gets to sell drugs

Anyone want to set a crystal meth lab? I am sure there will be a market, can't see the Tories complaining, it is after all simply market forces, Supply and Demand.

Hah

I always thought that the future was going to get better, that humans were clever enough to build a better world, where we'd work together to build beautiful futuristic leafy green cities that resemble Singapore.

But in reality, we're all out to **** each other over and the world is slowly turning into Blade Runner/Elysium - and the pretty parts are going to be walled off and guarded by taser wielding robots.

To top it all off, we'll probably die in our sleep after Trump says something about China on twitter and the world gets glassed by instant sunshine - and our only gift to the universe will be a monument to stupidity - a celestial Easter island.

The staffing crisis in the NHS really can't cope with losing the EU staff, but it's definitely something we are see in research too, May's foolish stance on EU citizens is just making a bad situation worse.

and our only gift to the universe will be a monument to stupidity

Blair on Marr - sounding significantly more lucid than any current politician, this demonstrates the lack of acceptance and understanding by the current political parties.

Please note I despise some of the stuff he has done but he has a far better view/grasp than any current politician- frightening really

Say what you like about Blair, but he does indeed seem one of the few to grasp that there has to be a counterbalance to the foaming at the mouth, head-case wing of the Tory party who will sacrifice anything at the alter of their rabid, and totally illogical hatred of the EU! Before it's too late!

And we have an 'opposition' totally unworthy of the name, who are sat with their thumbs up their arses, watching it happen.

I don't think he wants to do this, I get the impression he feels he has too, as no-one else will!

While I share a lot of people's distaste for Blairs record on Iraq etc, it doesn't make him wrong now. And I'm pleased someone is finally prepared to stick their head over the parapet and call out this madness!

Blair on Marr - sounding significantly more lucid than any current politician

We have a problem with competence in UK politics. Blair made a big error in Iraq but otherwise he knew how to play the game.

On Blair I disagree 100% - he has absolutely no idea and his ego is so big he can't resist sticking his oar in despite his interventions being worse than useless

So you think he's wrong?

Ultimately, at this critical juncture, that's all that matters. I think most people are pragmatic and unblinkered enough to see that. And he's voicing the fear and unease of a deeply concerned (large, and growing) chunk of the population who are presently totally unrepresented, and rightfully very, very worried about where these right wing lunatics are taking us, completely unopposed

Binners - I didn't read the statement but I consider any intervention from Blair even if he is right will be counter productive because of his baggage

Binners - I didn't read the statement

Good opening gambit. I often don't bother to read stuff, then condemn it out-of-hand

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/17/tony-blair-launches-pushback-against-frightening-populism ]Maybe you should?[/url]

I think you'll find most people are a bit more pragmatic than you. And I think while we can all agree that Blair is far from the ideal figurehead (to say the least), in the total absence of anyone else, he's going to have to do. Especially as things start to get real with the triggering of article 50. Blair clearly has sufficient knowledge and experience to know, first-hand, how badly tits-up things can (and likely will) go

In some ways Blair does have advantages. People won't stand up because they know they'll be absolutely savaged by the right wing press, in full on 'Enemy of the People' mode. Well... thats just a normal day at the office for Tony. He's been vilified for years, and clearly couldn't care less. All water off a ducks back. Right now, thats an advantage, I'd say

I consider any intervention from Blair even if he is right will be counter productive because of his baggage

That's quite a different thing from what you originally said..!

While I share a lot of people's distaste for Blairs record on Iraq etc, it doesn't make him wrong now. And I'm pleased someone is finally prepared to stick their head over the parapet and call out this madness!

Correct.

Never ever thought I'd say it, but bring back Tony. All is forgiven.

Problem is no one in the Labour Party can articulate like Blair, he has the ability to position,challenge and objection handle that no current politician has - he is also well read. However he is a sociopath of sorts, but compared to the Tory right he is a reasonable human being.

Never ever thought I'd say it, but bring back Tony. All is forgiven

Problem is no one in the Labour Party can articulate like Blair

If it all splits we end up being politically like Holland.

The Tories will never split as even their far right understands that a UKIP can not gain traction in real political terms so they stop inside the Tory party and meddle at the edges (they can't believe their current strong ) position)

As I have said before I think the current labour PMPs who don't support Corbyn need to walk away and start New Labour and let the Corbyn regime dissolve into the Communist Party. They need to fight for their seats under a new flag.

They may be able to create a situation where they take enough seats to force a coalition with the Tories. This is the best we could hope for.

[b]Lots to agree on above…[/b]

Can I just interrupt with a timely reminder of part of the Leave campaign that sickened me most at the time… getting British and Commonwealth citizens in the UK to vote Leave to stop the "EU" from unfairly treating non-EU applicants to work in the UK…

“My organisation supported Brexit for several reasons but the main reason was to bring people from abroad to help our industry to survive.”

https://www.ft.com/content/e72be378-a0ee-11e6-891e-abe238dee8e2

I'm another who loathes Blair but I'm grateful somone is speaking out against the coming shit show.

Blair devalues the case. It's like Bono telling people the poor to give their money to charity, Armstrong's Livestrong cancer campaign or Nicolas Hulot telling people to vote green. They poison the causes they support.

Maybe but Bono has raised millions , so did Amstrong and Hulot ........ well he used to make good tv .

The point is that it can work .

Remind me what Bono, Armstrong and Hulot did with the money they raised.

Bono would have contributed more by paying his taxes. Armstrong diverted money from cancer research into his own pocket and Hulot has a carbon footprint the size of Alaska.

Blair is serial liar, war criminal to some and only ever acts in the interests of his own agenda/himself.

Rich people can indeed raise insignificant amounts of money for (questionable) charity from people who are struggling, whilst not spending a lot.

It's called tax avoidance.

Have we done Blair Vs Christopher hitchens yet?

oh yes , their interest is questionable but they managed to raise the money in the first place .

Blair is only interested in making himself look good but a lot of people will follow him .

Oh, is this all about Blair now?

He makes a strong case… but only getting attention because of the paucity of leadership from our current politicians.
Get angry with them, not him.
He's yesterday's man, but his approach far more relevant than that of most of today's politicians on this issue.

Blair's piece from the New European

Not since I became politically active four decades ago, has clarity of thinking been in such urgent demand or such short supply.

Britain hurtles towards a triggering of Article 50, meaning that, next March, we enter a time-limited negotiation to go out of the EU, yielding up a significant part of our freedom of manoeuvre to a process governed by the necessity of a Europe-wide agreement.

We propose doing this with no clear idea of what life outside of the EU and especially outside of the European Single Market really looks like.

Nonetheless, any hint of braking or slowing down is condemned in some quarters as a treasonous denial of the will of the people.

The British people ‘have spoken’ we are reminded. That is true but no reason for us now to shut up and go along with whatever version of Brexit we end up negotiating, good or bad. We can carry on speaking and debating. This is democracy.

Our ‘will’ is not some immutable, semi-hallowed expression of opinion that, once given, cannot be changed or adjusted irrespective of any facts which emerge that might make a reasonable person doubt the wisdom of the course we have taken.

The Labour Party has decided for the main part, understandably, that it can’t be seen to be backsliding and so can, as Keir Starmer has very ably done, hold the Government to some kind of account, but cannot disturb the notion that Brexit does indeed mean Brexit.

In any event the Conservative Party will believe that the sharp turn to the Left under Labour’s leadership will mean that the Labour Party struggles to be a credible alternative government and therefore an effective opposition; and so they can do more or less what they want.

Meanwhile in a profoundly depressing pointer of the future direction of policy the new Government has heralded a return to grammar schools, a bizarre response to the challenge of any nation, in or out of Europe, which is surely to educate the broad mass of people and not simply a minority to the highest possible standards of educational attainment.

So Britain’s political choice is at risk of becoming one between a Hard Brexit Tory Party and a Hard Left Labour Party, presenting two competing versions of the 1960s.

This should not stand.

First let us deal with the argument that following the vote of June 23 we can choose between different types of Brexit – (not that the choice is ours alone because it depends also on our European partners) – but that we cannot choose no Brexit.

Let us do some ground clearing. I am not suggesting: either that we disregard the vote, or base a case on saying the people were misled, or didn’t know what they were voting for, or that we can just stay in the EU and override the will of the people.

I am suggesting something very simple.

It goes to the heart of the nature of the referendum vote.

We knew we were voting to leave the EU. We did not know and could not know what the alternative to EU membership looks like.

As I said at the time, it was like agreeing to a house swap without seeing the other house. Sure, we knew what we didn’t like about the existing address.

We had two people talk to us who claimed they had seen the alternative home. One said it was great; the other said it was awful. And we went with the one who said it was great.

But we hadn’t actually seen it ourselves. Now we will.

There will be a negotiation. As it proceeds, more will become clearer. OK, it will not become completely clear until we’re actually living there. But we will be a lot wiser than we are today. We will see the neighbourhood; we will view the structure; we can at least do a survey.

Think of what we now know even in the few months since the vote and before the actual negotiation has even begun. The currency has undergone the sharpest devaluation since Black Wednesday. Of course it makes exports cheaper. But this is a devaluation that is not a market correction. It is a negative prediction about our economic future resulting directly from the referendum decision.

If inflation rises, then working age families receiving benefits will see their real incomes fall, unless the Government finds extra cash to compensate.

Some major companies are already signalling a change – again adversely – in investment plans. Many more are waiting to see what the negotiation brings.

I recall the powerful slogan of the referendum plastered on the battle bus proclaiming an extra £350million a week for the NHS, a slogan featured prominently because speeches would take place with it in the background.

Now the talk is of loosening the borrowing requirement, Bank of England measures which mean even more monetary easing as if what we have done up to now is not risky enough, and the NHS – quite close to crisis – is going to receive little attention and not more cash because all the focus is on minimising the costs of Brexit.

Now, the Brexit folk appear to accept there will be some years of painful economic re-structuring (remember that being a big part of their campaign because I don’t?).

If food bills rise, because of higher import costs, the pain will be felt most of all by low income families, some of whom we can guess voted Brexit.

And one delusion should be put soon to rest: that we’re going to be negotiating all of this with a gang of smart German business leaders. The stalling of the Canada trade deal with Europe – certainly a simpler one than ours is likely to be – over an issue to do with the Walloon Parliament, shows where the power will lie: with politicians who will behave as politicians sometimes do, with parochial interests triumphing over the common weal. And in this negotiation there will be 27 sets of ?such politicians plus the European Parliament.

In other words, what we’re about to witness, is reality replacing conjecture.

The ghastly claim and counter-claim dogfight of the referendum campaign won’t disappear completely; but it will be much more framed in fact.

In these circumstances, it is odd to say that, having made our decision, we now can’t amend it or change it even if we want to.

The issue is not whether we ignore the will of the people; but whether, as information becomes available, and facts take the place of claims, the ‘will’ of the people shifts.

Maybe it won’t; in which case people like me will have to accept it.

But surely we are entitled to try to persuade, to make the argument, and not to be whipped into line to support a decision we genuinely believe is a catastrophe for the country we love.

Right now there is one point and one point only to win: we should keep every option open.

That this should even be contentious speaks loudly about how much those of us – and after all we were 16 million people – who believe Britain’s future lies within the European partnership, have been shoved onto the defensive.

But defeat is a great leveller provided that you learn from it.

There is a really good piece written on why we lost by Daniel Korski who worked for David Cameron. It sets out vividly the failings not of the Remain campaign, but much more seriously of our politics.

It should inject a sense of humility. We took too much for granted and got too much wrong.

We have to listen and learn.

But then we have to lead.

We have to respect that people voted as they did. But we have to believe in the people’s innate sense, that they’re also open to a better argument in the light of the facts as they come to light.

We have to recognise we’re the insurgents now. We have to build the capability to mobilise and to organise.

We have to prise apart the alliance which gave us Brexit.

The truth is that the real case for Brexit is the one you now hear openly acknowledged by some of its supporters.

And it’s not a stupid case.

It is that Britain should free itself from all the constraints which Europe imposes and from its essential social democratic model and go for a new type of economy altogether.

This economy would be defined in a sense by its very opposition to that European model. It would be free market, free trading, light regulation, low tax, low social protection – a sort of attempt to ?replicate the city states of Hong Kong and Singapore.

It’s not an impossible vision. We might – or at least some of us might – succeed in such a society.

But let us be very clear. It is not what a lot of the Brexit people voted for.

The NHS? Forget it. It would be much too expensive. Low numbers of migrants? Of course not, we would want them and need them. Theresa May’s workers on boards and a fairer capitalism? Not on this model.

What on earth would be the point of leaving Europe only to import Europe’s labour laws? Our competitive advantage would be precisely the absence of such regulation.

This vision is the future which could work.

But it isn’t the future Britain voted for.

And I am not sure we ever would; in which case, we would end up with the worst of all worlds – out of Europe’s market, but still with its model albeit at the frontier of it. The painful restructuring, supposed to be temporary, would turn into a permanent loss of income and a poorer country.

This is not apparent yet.

But it will be.

However, none of this is enough.

We also have to offer answers to the critical questions raised not only by Brexit but by the state of politics today.

Brexit is one consequence of the changing politics of the Western world. The centre is being pushed to the margins by a virulent populism of left and right.

Centre ground politicians feel so ?beaten up by the attacks on them that they default to a kind of uneasy trade with the populism.

One Labour MP explained it very graphically to me. He voted Remain. His constituency voted Leave. They voted in larger numbers than they did at the last General Election. All the pressure is one way; he thinks if he doesn’t conform to Brexit, he’s sunk.

Many Labour MPs are more worried by UKIP, even with their current travails, than they are about fighting what they regard as a doomed campaign to persuade the people to change their mind.

So, I asked my Labour MP, ‘what do you think is right? Stay or Leave?’ ‘Stay of course!’ he said. ‘And how important a decision for the country is this?’ I persisted. ‘The most important of my generation of course!’ he responded.

‘And you’re just going to accept it?’

The answer was a very eloquent shrug of the shoulders.

Sometimes the inevitable is called inevitable because it is. But sometimes the inevitable is in the mind of the beholder.

We have to provide answers: to the pressures and anxieties about immigration; to the feeling that many are left behind after the changes globalisation has wrought; to the worry over stagnant incomes, housing shortage, and over-burdened public services.

But we should not concede to the anger. We should channel it and pacify it in the only way which truly works: by real solutions which provide real change not fake fantasies which make enemies of neighbours.

If we don’t, then understand one thing above all else: that anger won’t disappear. It will metastasize. Soon there will be a new wave of technological change. The developing world, as it should, will move up the value chain.

The challenge of globalisation will grow greater not smaller.

If we have not built an understanding of what the true answers to this challenge are – which are much more to do with education, skills, infrastructure and open trade than it is to do with being ‘swamped’ by migrants – then we will be prey for an even more foolish excursion into populism than the one experimented with so far.

So these stakes are high. They are high all over Europe.

One missing but crucial element in all of the post-Brexit debate is how we influence the other side of this negotiation.

We know that Britain’s vote was symbolic of a general European feeling not simply an expression of a British one.

Europe should also be examining itself. Its failures were a cardinal part of Leave’s success.

There are elections in France next May. Whoever wins that election, will have – at least for a time – huge authority in ?Europe. Then it is Germany’s turn in September.

We have allies in Europe and many who fear – absolutely rightly – the corrosive impact of Britain’s departure on Europe’s ability to have weight and strength in the world. From European defence to trade negotiations with the USA, Europe is weaker without Britain. Many Europeans know that.

We should be working with them. Staying doesn’t necessarily mean staying in an unchanged Europe.

The world is dangerous right now, not simply for all the conventional reasons.

It is dangerous because Western politics is at risk of losing its way and its character. Just look at this Presidential election in the USA to see it.

Brexit has always meant more than Brexit.

So I come back to the central point. Keep our options fully open. Build the centre in all political parties. Organise and persuade. This is a world which changes fast. There is a downside to that. But there is also an upside. Things which look resolved emphatically can be open to a new resolution.

Above all stay firm. We’re a sovereign people. We can make up our mind; and we can change our mind. And whether we do, is up to us.

Nipper99 - Member
Blair's piece from the New European

... he is going to cause so much harm and hardship to so many people he is blinded by his own personal vanity.

When he says " hard left labour party" he instantly shows his grip on reality is as tenuous as ever.

Numerous other completely false statements in there as well. He is not part of the solution - he is part of the problem.

As with the the Iraq war, he's the ****er who started it all. He was the first to promise a referendum:

Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."

So how is that different to Cameron/May?

The world is dangerous right now, not simply for all the conventional reasons.

It is dangerous because Western politics is at risk of losing its way and its character. Just look at this Presidential election in the USA to see it.

Well so far the world feels a safer place under Trump than it did under Blair and Bush, Trump is up against resistance to most everything he does at home and abroad. Invading Iraq was the biggest loss of way and character by a British PM in my lifetime if measured in loss of life and chaos left behind.

Blair the hypocritical liar with a highly selective memory as usual.

If you don't agree with my line that Blair in the remain camp was beneficial to leave have a look at this:

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/12/boris-johnson-tony-blair-tosser-warning-eu-membership-vote ]Guardian Boris on Blair[/url]

Blair gave credibility to Boris by being one of those hypocritical, anti-democratic, we-know-better-than-the-populace politicians that the DM and leave media so effectively ridiculed.

Well so far the world feels a safer place under Trump than it did under Blair and Bush

Id agree if Trump hadn't just committed to a huge boost in military spending and was now insisting that other (NATO) countries also increase their military spending...

There's going to be a lot more weapons in the world of Trump gets his way

Meanwhile ...

http://www.businessinsider.com/doomsday-clock-now-2-minutes-30-seconds-2017-1

Good piece by Blair

So how is that different to Cameron/May?

It was a referendum on something different, wasn't it? That was the European constitution, which was something well defined that could be evaluated, wasn't it?

I still think May's ****ing up worse than Cameron, even though they both ****ed up.

That's the most rational, considered and intelligent piece on Brexit any British politician has articulated, by a country mile.

I'm finding it increasingly frustrating - and I'm not alone - that decent, intelligent people, who know this is utter folly, just haven't got the balls to stand up and say so. I suppose we have the Right Wing, their rabid, press attack-dogs, and the whole "Enemies of the People' narrative they've created to thank for that.

Thank god somebody is finally prepared to stand up and point at the Emperors new clothes. That its had to be Blair shows just how cowed, and totally unfit for purpose our present political system is, and how utterly corrosive and self-serving our media is

Binners - to some extent I agree but the number of factual errors in it shows his relationship to reality is as tenuous as ever

On Blair I disagree 100% - he has absolutely no idea and his ego is so big he can't resist sticking his oar in despite his interventions being worse than useless

Spot on TJ. As a Leaver I cannot think of a better person to intervene for Remain.

Blair signed Lisbon and Major Signed Maastrict. The Referendum delivered a massive "no thanks" to both of those treaties and both ex-leaders egos have taken a hit. Blair is left with having introduced the minimum wage and Major the National Lottery.

It was a referendum on something different, wasn't it? That was the European constitution, which was something well defined that could be evaluated, wasn't it?

Yes and after the French rejected in their Referendum it all the others where cancelled and they weaseled it in through the back door in the Lisbon Treaty.

... If only they could have a legacy as great as Cameron's

😉

Ah but you see his is the greatest, he gave the Scots a Referendum on Independence and the UK one on the EU 🙂

Saved by Gordon Brown on one and the nations biggest loser thanks to the other.

I'm sure that referendums are his favourite things ever!

I see A50 is to be triggered on John Majors birthday, those Torys are lovely aren't they.

The Referendum delivered a massive "no thanks" to

No, lets get this straight the referendum didn't deliver any resounding mandate, hence why this debate keeps on going. a small number of racists and xenophobes aided and abetted by various other factions have managed to obtain a tiny majority.

Scotland are now seeking another referendum, polls in Ireland are showing similar. The NHS et al is screwed, there is no more money to cover running the UK, but thats all right we have regained control, which incidently we never lost or can't regain because of international treaties.

What ever deal comes out of this we have pissed off half the population of the UK, damaged relations with Europe etc.

[quote=mrmo ] .........
What ever deal comes out of this we have pissed off half the population of the UK, damaged relations with Europe etc.

but... and it a big BUT. There is a group of businesses and individuals, together with their cronies and associates who stand to do very well thank you very much out of political upheaval.

Same groups who do well whenever things get tough or areas are ravaged by war. Be they, robber barons of old, the mafia of the last century, arms dealers, construction firms, media moguls, gold and equity dealers, religions even.... If you ever want to see the bigger picture in any unfolding world event, follow the money and/or the power play. The will of the people is often just a manipulation by powerful forces. How many true grass roots revolutions have there ever been that truly benefited the average man on the street long term?

And if you are a "normal" person trying to make the best of your lot? Tough. Screw you. you are just collateral. And it has always been so.

[i]No, lets get this straight the referendum didn't deliver any resounding mandate, hence why this debate keeps on going. a small number of racists and xenophobes aided and abetted by various other factions have managed to obtain a tiny majority.[/I]

+1 I was just going to write the same thing.

Also on Question Time last week no one pulled up one of the panel when she uttered the same kind of thought - surprised they couldn't hear me shouting at the telly 🙂

Should be triggered on April 1st

+1 WELSH FARMER

Poor will become very poor
Richmond will become richer
The rest will struggle on

The Referendum delivered a massive "no thanks" to both of those treaties

It did no such thing. People voted against bendy bananas and foreign people. Of course, bananas are meant to be bent and we need foreigners, but whatever.

If the referendum had been on revocation of specific treaties, you'd have had far lower turnout!

But as above - nothing was massive. It was a very slim 'no thanks' and it was 'no thanks' to all sorts of different things. You have to appreciate that Jam.

How many true grass roots revolutions have there ever been that truly benefited the average man on the street long term?

Chartists
Peasant's revolt
Labour movement
English Civil War

Maybe?

So we've got 2 years of stumbling from disaster to disaster, towards electoral armageddon. Hurray!

What are the chances of any of the [s]political pygmies[/s] master negotiators and diplomats about to begin the negotiations, seeing them through to the end? Or even making it 6 months in?

So what've we got to look forward too then?

10% corporation tax rate? Or maybe its complete abolition?
The end of a benefits system 'we can no longer afford'?
An influx of Russian gangsters getting their dirty money laundered in our further deregulated banks?
The end of any meaningful environmental controls?
The abolition of the minimum wage?
The end of maternity pay, sick pay, and anything else that prevents employees being bent over?
No controls whatsoever on immigration, as they'll all be required in our bold new sweatshop economy? (the biggest lie of the lot!)?

All dead certs in my book! Put your house on it

Molgrips had the Remain campaign economic scenarios looked like the reailty we have experienced the Leave win would have been larger. Project Armageddon was effective in frightening people but not effective enough.

Those two Treaties where key to the Union / Superstate project and created equal rights for all citizens, combine that with big EU expansion and you've created the problem. I noticed yesterday the EU flag flies next the Tricolour outside French hospitals - its real Superstate stuff - a subliminal attempt to erode the nation states.

Of there where Referendums in other EU countries we would see clearly we are not alone. The EU could have averted our Exit but Junker chose a different path.

With a bit of luck everything will fail and we'll end up taking the easy option of least disturbance, which would be carry on as we are but we'll call ourselves EEA members instead and just not have any MEPs.

Molgrips had the Remain campaign economic scenarios looked like the reailty we have experienced

IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

Why can you not address this fact?

@kimbers Major's birthday, good spot 🙂 They'll be a party in the Bird household for sure.

People didnt vote on the basis of treaties theyve never heard of, they voted leave because they felt they have no control over their lives and the EU was a convenient scapegoat, the brexies had spent years spreading this myth, so confident in the hate theyd fostered that they wrote some lies on a bus and now brag about it as a great tactic.

Molgrips the Armageddon scenarios where IMMEDIATE not on A50 trigger. They also included not a single new trade deal ever 😯 they shot themselves in both feet and destroyed their own credibility.

I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see. I see opportunity. I see a once in a lifetime chance that we took to exit a diasterous and failing political union project.

Molgrips the Armageddon scenarios where IMMEDIATE not on A50 trigger.

Not really, at least that's not how I understood it.

So what if the economy does slide over the next five years - that'll be okay will it, because that wasn't what remain said?

I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see.

a) 42% of Tory voters voted remain and

b) Personally I really really really really DO NOT WANT A BLEAK FUTURE. Because I live and work here (now I've got no ****ing choice thanks to you but anyway) and my kids are going to have to live and work here (again they also have no choice) so I desperately want and need the UK to be a success.

What a monumentally ****ing stupid thing to say. You really think remainers are so bitter and twisted? You are not thinking at all rationally about this.

I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see.

Yeah... we're all relishing the prospect of impoverishment, inequality and chaos! We'll all be happy as pigs in shit when that happens!

Seriously... what planet do you live on?

This comes down to who'll be the losers and winners in the forthcoming shitstorm? And the answer will be the same as it always is. Just more so, this time

I see opportunity

I understand the non-Tory voting / Tory-hating Remainers see a bleak future and chaos everywhere as that's exactly what they want to see.

Utter nonsense, I certainly don't want to see anything of the kind. What I want to see is the Brexit zealots take the enormous task ahead seriously by properly resourcing a transition organisation.

What I see instead is a shambles headed by David Davies and disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox with Boris Johnson lumbering around somewhere in the background. And a steady drip of propaganda readying the Scots, the rEU and all who aren't of the True Faith as scapegoats when the sunlit uplands remain on the horizon indefinitely.

I see oportunity

Me too, it's the opportunity to strip away worker's and consumer's rights, along with environmental protections in the name of making a success of the whole fiasco. We're all in it together.

I see naivety

I see unbelievable stupidity, tinged with racism

ernie_lynch can't be bothered with this thread, perhaps he's the smartest Leaver here ?

jambalaya - Member
ernie_lynch can't be bothered with this thread, perhaps he's the smartest Leaver here ?

nah,
hes just embarrassed that he supported a movement that used blatant lies and xenophobia & has been seen as hugely beneficial to the alt-right
and the result led to a reshuffled in government that brought the swivel-eyed right wingers to the fore...

Molgrips the Armageddon scenarios where IMMEDIATE not on A50 trigger.

As I recall...

A50 trigger was assumed in the scenarios to be immediate/June 24th, so immediate and A50 can be assumed to be the same thing.

The scenario laid out the harm to the UK economy over 15 years.

It's definitely not 15 years from A50 trigger, and as I recall Jamba you yourself forecast a hit to the economy for 20 years - but worth it on a jingoistic sovereignty basis in your opinion.

Agreed?

[img] [/img]

[I]It's definitely not 15 years from A50 trigger, and as I recall Jamba you yourself forecast a hit to the economy for 20 years - but worth it on a jingoistic sovereignty basis in your opinion. [/I]

I think we ended up agreeing it'd take 10 years to settle down, and a generation before we might start been in a better place than now.

Not sure if it'll make any difference, but there is a march in London on Saturday to try and make the Government at least take account of remainers.

https://www.uniteforeurope.co.uk/

Hopefully there'll be enough people to at least be noticed by the news outlets.

Jamba - there already has been huge damage to the economy with large amounts of investment shelved, fall in the value of the £, large numbers of job losses directly attributable to leaving the EU and we are still 2 years from the crunch point.

But then when we had a debate about the damage to financial services you did consider that the loss of the most profitable 20% of their operations to be insignificant

BR =- so you are a leaver and accept it will cause damage to the economy for 25 years?

.... and as I recall Jamba you yourself forecast a hit to the economy for 20 years - but worth it on a jingoistic sovereignty basis in your opinion.

No I did not at all. I said I thought it would be a min of 5 years or maybe as much as 10 before we saw benefits from new trade deals outweighing loss of free trade to Europe.

I want the same jingoistic sovereignty as [b]everywhere else in the world[/b] not a member of the EU. Thats a lot of countries

The EU is a catatstrophe from top to bottom. A massive No Thanks from me

Right - so ten years of recession you think is acceptable?

The EU is a catatstrophe from top to bottom.

And ten years of recession for the UK wouldn't be a worse catastrophe?

@igm fhe Remain scenarios where chosen to be the most negative possible, that included the biggest shock factor namely A50 triggered almost immediately when it was clear there was no plan (as Cameron/Osbourne made none)

There isn't a shadow of doubt that the Remain Armageddon scenarios have been proven ludicrous and lead directly to Osbourne's departure a loss of credibility for the Treasury, IMF/OECD eating massive portions of humble pie.

@molgrips my point is that the most, shall we say emotive, posters here are anti-Tory and the Brexit part is just some extra gas on the fire.

@molgrips my point is that the most, shall we say emotive, posters here are anti-Tory and the Brexit part is just some extra gas on the fire.

Not news, and your point is still ludicrous.

I'd dearly love to be wrong about all this. I'd love to live in an open doored multi-cultural prosperous society. However I don't think those first two things are what leavers had in mind, to be honest.

And we will definitely have much higher barriers to our own neighbours, and our own citizens, which frankly stinks.

There isn't a shadow of doubt that the Remain Armageddon scenarios have been proven ludicrous

Which ones? The ones saying we might have a long recession? How can anything have been proven so soon?

You cannot seriously be this dim. You are spinning at a thousand rpm.

Right - so ten years of recession you think is acceptable?

Where the F did I say there would be a recession ? We have growth of 2% vs a pre-Brexit estimate of 2.4% that's the sort of short term cost I was referring to. Less growth, arguably, due primarily to uncertainty.

Project Aramgeddon had a short term recession similar to 2008-10 and that has been shown to be a total load of sh.te

Aside from being supremely overly negative it absolutely failed fo grasp that the 52 are deloghted with the result and optimistic for the future.

Not sure if it'll make any difference, but there is a march in London on Saturday to try and make the Government at least take account of remainers.

https://www.uniteforeurope.co.uk/

Hopefully there'll be enough people to at least be noticed by the news outlets.

It does make a difference, in particular to how the country is perceived abroad. The alternative is ceding the field to the fruitloops. It's too early for that.

Anyone who sees the lunacy of what's happening to our country, please go - there will be events in other cities as well as London.