[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I fear that you are wasting your time CountZero, but you probably already knew. Britain is the most multicultural and least racist country in Europe, possibly the world, but the Remainers want to pretend that Britian has suddenly been gripped by racism and xenophobia.

And yet we are supposedly leaving the EU over immigration issues...

It really is amazing how much BS our side is now coming out with

I am not on anyones' side (certainly not on the side of a May sympathiser thanks!)

So neither of you get my point, but that doesn't make it BS. If the remain MPs really, really wanted to remain they would have blocked article 50 (as 100 or so did). But instead they hardly put up a fight.

Why do you think that was?

Err, they are funded by the Klan?

Why do you think that was?

they care more about their jobs than the future of the country?

which is how we got in this whole mess in the first place...

Err, they are funded by the Klan?

So you haven't go any ideas then?

Obviously not, I stand down to your superior analysis.

Guardian piece on the Lords report. Some top quotes from an EU Official who gave evidence

It's not about the money"

Of course it's about the money. Didn't you see the bus 🙂

And yet we are supposedly leaving the EU over immigration issues...

We are leaving over uncontrolled immigration and the rights of any EU citizen to come here and to claim welfare / housing etc. The German's understand that which is why they are restricting welfare for 5 years for any non-German - something they can do as they have a different welfare system to us. Yes we could have changed ours in its entirety but that would be politically impossible.

Even though uncontrolled immigration has never existed.

Might've been a bit more sensible though Jam rather than rip the guts out of our economy and remove our rights...?

Kimbers I imagine UK MEP's inc Farage's pensions are a legal obligation of the EU. I would be stunned if they could withold it. Ditto all the Brits hired by the EU, its the EU who are their employers.

Personally I don't see how it would poison negotiations - the high alter priests of the EU have already been talking enough shite to have created that atmosphere already.

The EU 60th Anniversary Junket is going to be a sombre affair I imagine. May already declined her invitation:)

TMH of course it did. Arguing we had control because we can prevent entry to a person who poses an imminent security threat is daft. We can't even stop a person who has been deported for begging from re-entering.

@molgrips you have to understand I believe we are much better off economicaly outside the EU. Whatvwas the Referendum stat 87% of economic activity is domestic and we are a big net importer (making a virtue out of a vice 😉 ) As for workers rights May said they'll be protected whilst she's PM so just keep suporting her 😉

No it didn't. It doesn't matter how many times the lie is repeated,, it won't become true.

[i] If the remain MPs really, really wanted to remain they would have blocked article 50 (as 100 or so did). But instead they hardly put up a fight.[/I]

Got to agree with, it's the only 'logical' answer really since the majority voted for Article 50.

And as for "we don't have to pay", ok. Now what, since the negotiations might as well not happen and we'll just drop straight out ANY trade agreements and tbh the WTO countries won't trust us either so we'll get no concessions there. Bo11ock'd will be an understatement.

Although I for one will be arguing for Farage and Co. NOT to get any money and go sue someone (which seems, no one based on the article). 🙂

@molgrips you have to understand I believe we are much better off economicaly outside the EU.

That's not what I am hearing.

Mol, Jamba is only saying HE believes we'll be better off.

He's not saying anyone else believes it

As for workers rights May said...

El-bent - Member

I fear that you are wasting your time CountZero, but you probably already knew. Britain is the most multicultural and least racist country in Europe, possibly the world, but the Remainers want to pretend that Britian has suddenly been gripped by racism and xenophobia.

And yet we are supposedly leaving the EU over immigration issues...

Yeah keep the faith El-bent, Britain has suddenly been gripped by racism and xenophobia - it's the only explanation!

Just ignore awkward and inconvenient facts such as the fact that the BNP doesn't have one single councillor in the UK, a situation which is totally at odds with the political standing of the racist and xenophobic far-right in France, Holland, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Austria, etc.

It's interesting that some people who are so quick to denounce Donald Trump are capable of making such staggeringly stupid and false comments to suit their own agendas. We truly have entered the post-truth and knee-jerk "analysis" era.

A few pages back there was a link to detailed analysis of the vote and immigration was the top reason I seem to recall.

jam bo - Member

Why do you think that was?

they care more about their jobs than the future of the country?

So MPs voted to trigger article 50 because they were worried about losing their jobs next general election?!

This thread in many ways is the saddest thread but it still throws up much to make me chuckle 🙂

Yup, uncontrolled immigration. Australia takes twice the number of immigrants as does the UK and its populationnis 1/3rd of ours.

@b r indeed, maybe it is just me 🙂 molgrips even Osbourne's project doom said we would be better off outside the EU but that we would be less well off than if we stayed in. Even project fear and doom said the Economy would grow to be larger than it is now.

cchris2lou - Member

A few pages back there was a link to detailed analysis of the vote and immigration was the top reason I seem to recall.

Yes which proves that Britain is racist and xenophobic.........don't stop believing it!

I can't imagine what you think Poland is!

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/02/poles-dont-want-immigrants-they-dont-understand-them-dont-like-them ]'Poles don't want immigrants. They don't understand them, don't like them'[/url]

[b][i]"According to a study in 2013 by the Centre for Research on Prejudice – a professional academic centre at the University of Warsaw – as many as 69% of Poles do not want non-white people living in their country".[/i][/b]

Yes which proves that Britain is racist and xenophobic.........don't stop believing it!

I can't imagine what you think Poland is!

Are those two things linked in some way?

What a bizarre question.

But carry on believing that Britain has become racist and xenophobic (it clearly hasn't) if it helps you to deal with the wounds of losing the referendum - it makes no odds to me.

project fear and doom

Remind me was that the fear of foreigners campaign or the I fear if we cut a load of trade ties we're probably going to be worse off campaign.

Personally I asssociate project fear with the Brexies, but I think you double think it Jamba.

We didn't become xenophobic during or after the Brexshit vote, we always were. It had just been hidden well in the mutliculttual mirage of the UK. That we are less xenophobic and certainly less racist that other societies is comforting but tthat does not whitewash (sorry) away one of the most important drivers in the Brexshit campaign, All that happened was the opaque layer of what we hoped was our society was rolled back to lay bare a less attractive underbelly.

THM +1

THM +2 simple fact is a lot of us thought we were a better society than that and as THM states it was just an opaque layer...

I have heard more xenophobic and racist conversations in the last six months than the last six years. I have found it deeply unpleasant and no longer drink in certain pubs due to it but what can you do its the "will of the people" however karma will catch up with other all - always has always will.

Yeah keep the faith El-bent, Britain has suddenly been gripped by racism and xenophobia - it's the only explanation!

Just ignore awkward and inconvenient facts such as the fact that the BNP doesn't have one single councillor in the UK, a situation which is totally at odds with the political standing of the racist and xenophobic far-right in France, Holland, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Austria, etc.

It's interesting that some people who are so quick to denounce Donald Trump are capable of making such staggeringly stupid and false comments to suit their own agendas. We truly have entered the post-truth and knee-jerk "analysis" era.

And yet the politicians played the immigration card. It must have some substance.

I don't believe we are like Poland, or Hungary, or even Eastern Germany...places formerly under Communist rule that suppressed far right ideology, but we in the UK are collectively responsible for allowing those on the right to exploit the situation, which they have been doing for a long time before the referendum. We should have stamped on them.

You do seem a little sensitive over it Ernie...I have to remind myself that not everyone who voted to leave the EU were xenophobic, but they voted with those who were.

fear of foreigners campaign

[img] [/img]

^
Mephistopheles himself - quit apt given the meaning of the word: 'plasterer of lies'

We have had our own right wing in the uk for many years - Tory Party which had provided a "home" for the well educated right wing. Right wing working class has always been frowned upon by the well educated right who ultimately when it comes down to the wire will put money in front of deporting people, as working class right wing will deport folks who are supporting the lifestyles and businesses of the wealthy right wing Tories.

Simple economics nothing to do with racism as on the whole the wealthy right wing despise everyone else equally regardless of colour or origin.

At some point we need to recognise that the Brexit vote was largely split into three camps -

Wealthy- see an opportunity to make a lot of cash and pay less tax

Pensioners- want the 1950s and straight bananas

Poor working class - who want the foreigners out and £30k for driving a van.

Any of the above two can be mixed and matched.

Only the first group will fulfill there expectation.

THM +3

El-bent - Member

Yeah keep the faith El-bent, Britain has suddenly been gripped by racism and xenophobia - it's the only explanation!

Just ignore awkward and inconvenient facts such as the fact that the BNP doesn't have one single councillor in the UK, a situation which is totally at odds with the political standing of the racist and xenophobic far-right in France, Holland, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Austria, etc.

I don't believe we are like Poland, or Hungary, or even Eastern Germany...

But presumably you believe that we are like France, Holland, Italy, Germany, Sweden, and Austria, despite the awkward fact that we don't have even have a single BNP councillor in Britain and those countries have far-right MPs in their parliament. In two of those countries, France and Austria, they are making a serious challenge for the presidency.

Still, like Donald Trump you got an agenda to satisfy, so claiming any old bollocks whilst ignoring actual facts seems to be the way to go.

You do seem a little sensitive over it Ernie

😆 Why, because I occasionally point out that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe?

Well if you want believe all this bollocks about the British suddenly becoming racist and xenophobic that's fine by me - I know that Britain has [i]never[/i] been less racist and xenophobic than it is today (although we should never stop fighting racism of course)

As I said to DrJ, carry on believing that Britain has become racist and xenophobic (it clearly hasn't) if it helps you to deal with the wounds of losing the referendum - it makes no odds to me.

despite the awkward fact that we don't have even have a single BNP councillor in Britain

Didn't they rebrand as UKIP?

Ernie - is Britain racist or not? To some extent yes and to some extent no. Is it more racist than many other places? No. Is it more racist than I thought it was? Yes.
And it is not about becoming racist, it is about underlying racism being revealed.
And as a white, English speaking, vaguely protestant type I don't like it. How some people on the receiving end feel... well how would I know?

PS - I assume this below is opinion as I have no idea what stats you'd use to back it up. And unless you've lived extensively across different parts of Britain and different parts of all the other countries in Europe, may I suggest it's merely assertion?

Why, because I occasionally point out that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe?

despite the awkward fact that we don't have even have a single BNP councillor in Britain

And as a white, English speaking, vaguely protestant type I don't like it.

Well I'm speaking as a EU immigrant catholic. HTH

Ernie - thank you for making me smile.

Italy was more racist where I lived and when I lived there. Rural France has always seemed surprisingly tolerant but I can't speak for the cities. And maybe it's just the Germans I meet, but extremely tolerant I'd say. The Norwegians I knew were rarely sober enough to tell but that's students for you.

Why would folk go out and vote for a fringe party when they can vote UKIP instead ( 😆 )

Yeah because UKIP are doing so well that even their leader can't win a seat ( 😆 )

So now UKIP is the equivalent to the neo-nazi far-right in Europe?

OK, if that helps your simple take on things.

It's not about getting the most racist badge ernie, it's about the fact that hate crime is increasing, people seem to feel more comfortable expressing their views about foreign people etc.

I assume this below is opinion as I have no idea what stats you'd use to back it up.

No not an opinion, the claim that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe is based on the fact that there no other country in more multicultural and less racist and xenophobic than Britain.

But I would be interested in your suggestions for that accolade.

Why, because I occasionally point out that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe?

No, because you voted with the xenophobes, and its making you quite uncomfortable.

it's about the fact that hate crime is increasing

Undoubtedly. But if you were to get yourself a time machine and go back in time you would find that Britain has [i]never[/i] been less racist and xenophobic than it is today.

More hate crime doesn't necessarily mean more racists. And compared to some other European countries in incidences of hate crime are still [i]relatively[/i] low in Britain. Furthermore a 50% increase, for example, of a small figure isn't much.

Germany quite likes staying in the EU, it doesn't stop this though :

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39096833 ]Germany hate crime: Nearly 10 attacks a day on migrants in 2016[/url]

Undoubtedly. But if you were to get yourself a time machine and go back in time you would find that Britain has never been less racist and xenophobic than it is today.

it's about the fact that hate crime is increasing

That is not a fact - figures haven't been released yet as far as I can see, there was a certainly short term spike for a couple of months following the result of the referendum, but it is difficult to find any reports after that.

No, because you voted with the xenophobes, and its making you quite uncomfortable.

Leaving the EU is imo the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson won the 1975 general election, I'm hugely comfortable with the result. And I couldn't give a monkeys that UKIP supported leaving the EU for their own and very different reasons.

Edit to the above, that should read "imo the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson became prime minister in 1974".

Anyway I'll leave it there - I went to the NHS demo in London today and didn't fancy going out tonight, but I've got to get up for a bike ride tomorrow morning. Carry on....

Leaving the EU is imo the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson won the 1975 general election, I'm hugely comfortable with the result. And I couldn't give a monkeys that UKIP supported leaving the EU for their own and very different reasons.

I do believe that quite a few on the left who voted out believed the EU was some nasty free market capitalist entity, but proceeded to vote out with a bunch of ultra free market capitalists.

They even believe that this country is going to come round and say the left and its Utopian policies were correct all along, and once a socialist Government is in power all will be well again.

Well you are getting May and her bunch of see you next Tuesdays. For a long time to come.

Voting with Xenophobes and free marketeers, and ending up with an authoritarian Government. Excellent work there.

What about my lost rights Ernie?

It's not all about you Molgrips

It's not all about you Molgrips

the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson became prime minister in 1974

Why do you think that.

It's not all about you Molgrips

What about everyone's lost rights?

Not important?

I have been reading this thread with interest, had to catch up since my last post a few weeks ago. I am still waiting for the leave camp to advance a decent argument as to:
How will it work?
What is so great about it compared to the eu relationship we have now?
As I have said, I am on the fence, I need to be persuaded, I have heard plenty of cogent remain arguments, but so far leave is just lots of optimism, but no actual theory/reasoning. There has to be a reason why the Jacob Rees Moggs of the world think leaving will be better for all of us.
Perhaps Ernie as you see it as positive, you could explain why? What convinced you?

No not an opinion, the claim that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe is based on the fact that there no other country in more multicultural and less racist and xenophobic than Britain.

Facts require evidence. Got some evidence that every other country in Europe is more racist and more xenophobic than Britain?
How do you even measure xenophobia objectively?

Are we still going round in circles on this ? Throughout Europe in partcuiar for example in Poland, Hungary, France, Germany and Holland there is a growing discomfort with immigration policy whether that is from within the EU or external. Politicians have ignored this sentiment for a very long time and it has started to reach a level where the people havng been ignored are listening to new voices. Gert Wilders called Moroccans "scum", his one man party are leading the polls in Holland with the elction now very close. We had an EU Referendum which gave the public it's chnace to express their desire for a change in policy. Germany is responding by changes to the law. Austria came within a hairs breadth of electing a far right President,mPoland already has a strongly anti-immigrant/refugee government ...

Read the Casey report into integration in the UK. Governments of every colour have been ignoring this issue and ploughing on regardless.

5nplus8 we have explained our thoughts many times. Back at the beginning Ernie posted info from Left Leave supporting his rationale, here is an example

Got some evidence

Hopefully he will do it in an early morning tweet

Some folks dont believe we are the least racist and xenophobic people you have ever met [sad] but we are.FACT

Jambas, the rise of xenophobia across Europe that you describe is EXACTLY why the BS behind it needs to be stood up to. A simple lesson of history. Blaming Johnny is weak and misguided and ultimately SHAMEFUL

Heading right?
If Britain votes to leave, it won’t automatically mean a move to
the right. The Tories are being torn apart by debate over the EU.
If Cameron loses, he will almost certainly go. If a Conservative
government survives, it will be hopelessly fragile.
Not only will the government be weakened. The rich and powerful
overwhelmingly support British membership. The City, the Confederation
of British Industry and the Institute of Directors all support the status
quo. So do at least two-thirds of large British firms surveyed by the
Financial Times last year. A crisis for our rulers can open up a greater
space for the left.

No not an opinion, the claim that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe is based on the fact that there no other country in more multicultural and less racist and xenophobic than Britain.

here's a thought for you, why has the UK always imported low skilled workers, Irish Navvies, Jamaican bus drivers, polish abattoir workers, etc, etc??

Maybe your idea of racism and xenophobia needs looking at, maybe it is because the UK sees itself as too good to the crap jobs, those are for foreigners.

1974 was indeed a momentous point in political history - more chaos that delivered.....not long term socialism....but Ernie's poster girl to power and all the meant. Welcome Maggie.....and labour civil war.

5plusn8

In defence of the Leavers it'd be pretty hard to be able to present any actual evidence of how good/bad/indifferent it could be, as no country had done anything as crazy/progressive/great/etc* (pick whichever suits your belief) as this before.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/lords-select/eu-financial-affairs-subcommittee/news-parliament-2015/eu-budget-report-publication/

So got through most of this.

There is [b]no obligation[/b] to continue to pay into the EU budget nor to fund the €63bn pension fund deficit the EU has allowed to build up.

The Germans seem to have grasped this as they have said the 2015-2020 EU budget plan must be renegotiated (they say in 2018 conveniently after their elections 😐 ) to take into account the missing UK contributions from 2019.

No one has any real idea how to calculate anything of substance, the report uses in bold type the word [b]speculation[/b] with regard to figures banded about. Even the EU's own Finance representative who gave evidence was producing figures all over the shop.

Pensions. Employees pay 9.25% but the EU does nothing at all to make provision for it's 18.5% share. Their problem, morally and legally. No doubtbif they tried to withhold pensions they would be sued.

Finally, the report provides further justification for tye £350m a week figure not least in that any rebate is paid 12 months in arrears (and is variable and subject to withdrawl). So it really is the case we pay in £363m (and rising) a week.

To the point that walking away paying nothing would be politically damaging, that's just horsesh.t. No business wouod ever make a payment in the billions which itbwas not legally bound to do so and nor should we. Politicians in no way should hand over billions of taxpayers money with no legal obligation to do so. The report shows page after page the total chaos and disorganisation at the EU. It is no surprise they have not had a clean audit for the longest time and that fraud is rife. The whole concept of Reste a liquider (pay later) couldn't be more French in its shambolicness (if thats a word), countries deciding what they spend as they go and asking for rebates (N+3) years later.

The EU is a diabolically dysfunctional organisation and is truely Daffy Ducked over this so called "exit bill"

@nplus have a read of this - pdf linked to after intro, partisan of course

http://brexitcentral.com/project-cheer/

Finally, the report provides further justification for tye £350m a week figure not least in that any rebate is paid 12 months in arrears (and is variable and subject to withdrawl). So it really is the case we pay in £363m (and rising) a week.

Politicians in no way should hand over billions of taxpayers money with no legal obligation to do so.

There may be a legal liability but it is simply unenforceable - this is quite common in international situations where public policy is involved. You should know this if you read any of the legal opinions that accompany bond issues.

1) The lexit document, ([url= http://www.leftleave.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lexit1_v1.2.pdf) ]here[/url]) is a series of moans, some of which are incorrect and indefensible. They do not outline any proposals about how things will be better, just what people do not like. I understand why people do not like these things, but you need to replace them with something better, what are those things? Its kind of like saying I do not like parachutes, 1 in 10000 people die in parachute accidents, so I am going to stop using parachutes when I jump out of planes. What I am asking for is brexits proposals for parachutes 2.0 or maybe jet packs that are cheaper and more reliable. All we have so far is not parachutes. That is a bit scary.
2) [url= http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ProjectCheerBooklet-1-1.pdf ]project cheer[/url] is also laughable, in between all the guff and massive font quotes, there is some quality bullshit . a) int trade, their best example is trump, once saying that he would do a good deal with us, when in fact all the us reps are licking their lips over trade they will steal from us and how much they are going to charge us to export to the USA.
b)confidence in Britain , quoting nissan, apple and google, all of whom have now rowed back on their commitment.
c) growing economy, arguably the economy has partly been shored up in the short term by carney, and the populace are spending like crazy because the think the end is nigh. And the economy is booming, whilst still being in the EU, so that hardly illustrates brexit does it?

Anyway whether you agree with these or not, none are proposals about how britain will be better off in the long term, what is outlined in both pdfs is debatable observed phenomena about the state of the country today, before brexit. And do not give concrete proposals about how brexit will make us better off (socially, financially whatever your measure.)

I really do not want to come off as a remainer, but I would like to be convinced. It seems this thing is going to happen, so the best thing to do is understand it and work with it. I want to know how it will work. Concrete proposals.
I am a bit thick Jambyala and Ernie so just right a number proposals that simply comprehensively cover how the theory of brexit works. Why are you so convinced its brilliant.

I am a bit thick Jambyala and Ernie so just right a number proposals that simply comprehensively cover how the theory of brexit works.

In short we had a really great deal from the worlds largest trade area that includes some of the richest economies in the world, and we are leaving to trade with New Zealand. This is being sold to us as a really good idea, since we no longer have to accept immigrants our economy needed if we'd stayed.

I might be missing some details though, since that sounds like a really stupid idea.

milleboy, thanks for answering me directly. Unfortunately it does not really illuminate matters, I am very familiar with the remain argument. There must be some sensible counter to this, otherwise what do Murdoch, Rees Mogg, May etc get out of it? Why is it so great?

what do Murdoch, Rees Mogg, May etc get out of it?

I guess more than 3 people think it's a good idea though?
May got a bigger office and car, Rees Mogg got to look relevant (unbelievable, I know).

I'm not helping I know, but I struggle to come up with any 'real' benefits from it. It's like cancelling a really good ski holiday to stay at home and do the decorating.

In short we had a really great deal from the worlds largest trade area that includes some of the richest economies in the world, and we are leaving to trade with New Zealand. This is being sold to us as a really good idea, since we no longer have to accept immigrants our economy needed if we'd stayed.

I don't think that is quite right, India are demanding immigration relaxation as are Australia, and i suspect so will NZ.

And what will Spain demand in return for keeping the UK expats? Gibraltar? Or how about a Trade deal with Argentina?

It's like cancelling a really good ski holiday to stay at home and [s]do the decorating[/s] plant spuds.

And what will Spain demand in return for keeping the UK expats? Gibraltar?

Good point, do we have enough capacity for production of elasticated waisted slacks if they all have to come back?

5+

The case (FWIW) can still be found in the Vote Leave website. As (chillingly) amusing now as when it was first made up.

Still worked better than the truth.....

I don't think that is quite right, India are demanding immigration relaxation as are Australia, and i suspect so will NZ.

And what will Spain demand in return for keeping the UK expats? Gibraltar? Or how about a Trade deal with Argentina?

Who knows but I'm watching with interest as my father lives in Spain, the local authority have said they will support as much as they can, but that's not Spanish central government policy. So who knows what will happen if everyone shuts up shop on immigration.

He's got residential status though but I'm not sure how much protection that could offer.

The EU is a diabolically dysfunctional organisation

So is the UK government though. We've not gained anything in that area.

@matty as we've said many Brits take their pensions and accumulative wealth and spend it in generally otherwise quite poor areas. Tourism a massive business for Spain, Italy, France etc. IMO it s quite clear they will be keen to keep the £££'s flowing. Might they ask for a health insurance payment ? Maybe they will depends on how much other tax is paid inc property taxes.

@mefty not sure what point you are making. I have first hand experience on bond deals working very differently from the Prospectus some due to other docs "incorporated by reference" which where not publically available but which took precidence or even Government's effectively just tearing up the rule book and doing what they want.

So is the UK government though. We've not gained anything in that area.

We are many times more functional than the EU itself or a number of the member states.