Forum menu
Big relative to who?
Germany? France?
Or are you talking about EFTA?
True that EFTA would strongly resist having a single large country swinging its weight around.
Any (already dead) hope of being in the EEA relied more on a bespoke deal, rather than EFTA membership, really.
[i][ I was going to start up my "May has killed any chance of us being in the Single Market" rant… but yesterday Corbyn finally confirmed that he is perfectly prepared to kill that option as well… no point blaming May anymore, there is consensus between our political "Leaders"… I need to modify and widen that rant considerably… ][/i]
[url= https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-01/brexit-exodus-starts-with-a-trickle-as-some-say-banks-bluffing?cmpid=BBBXT0301317 ]Another article for TJ.[/url] Reiterates all the points that been made. Although this quote particularly tickled me
One European banking boss quipped that the only way France would be top of his list would be if you turned it upside down.
Jamba - no worries
Anyone who did a little reading before the vote could have appreciated this or are we still playing the card that all LEAVERS were thick?
They were doing some Brexit thing on BBC North West the other night, and asked some mad old trout why she'd voted to leave. Her answer...
"well they made us have straight bananas and cucumbers, didn't they, and the eggs aren't right, are they?"
No... me neither. I do think there should have been a banana-related true or false question before you were allowed to vote. Given how slender the majority was, I think its safe to say that the thick-as-pigshit element definitely swung it
Oh dear!
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-39123982 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-39123982[/url]
I'm sure there's something positive for brexshitters to jump on. 🙁
Taking back control?
Taking back control?
In a Mel Gibson talking down a suicide jumper kind of way?
Which ones, the ones which were involved in opting out of the police and criminal matters (about 130) and then negotiating an immediate opt-in for the 31 she thought were worthwhile? Seems to indicate an ability to negotiate sensible compromises with our European partners.
This was because we were in a treaty which allowed us to do so if we so chose. Nothing to do with negotiation here.
Newsflash: we're not in a treaty to allow us to pick and choose which bits of the EU we want.
A different take on the s***storm.
Anyone who did a little reading before the vote could have appreciated this or are we still playing the card that all LEAVERS were thick?
It is well documented that on average the leavers were of lower intelligence. And the ones that were not thick were just intelligent racists 🙂
Most voters are thick which is exactly why you should not be asking them a direct question where they can give the wrong answer - but then we've been round that a few times already....
This was because we were in a treaty which allowed us to do so if we so chose. Nothing to do with negotiation here.
Only gave us opt out right in entirety, no automatic piecemeal opt in right that had to be negotiated both within the government and with the EU - [url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jul/08/britain-european-arrest-warrant-reform ]see contemporaneous report[/url].
Well done my fellow British people. We had it really good for about the last 40 years, but it obviously wasn't good enough. Slow clap.
[img] 
[/img]
Only gave us opt out right in entirety, no automatic piecemeal opt in right that had to be negotiated both within the government and with the EU - see contemporaneous report.
Looks like pushing at an open door with regards to this then, as all sides wanted those parts. Again not the same here.
Given the way things are panning out - that our nations future is in the hands of a cult of rabid, flag-waving, xenophobic, uber right wing nut-job racists, there surely can't be many large multinational companies who aren't thinking exactly the same as Ford? That now may well be the perfect time to get the **** out of Dodge!
Its absolute insanity!
Chrysler own dodge, they should get the **** outa Ford.
I'll get my coat.
The thing is… companies can't admit it… if you change your plans because of Brexit it's wise to claim that it has nothing to do with Brexit, to avoid alienating half of UK consumers. So, move your production focus elsewhere, but make sure PR avoids blaming the "will of the people" to avoid increased risk of losing sales to "the people".
Yeh hence why the official line from companies is 'we are keeping things under constant review and making no promises'.
And we all know what that means.
Cap'n,only had a quick skim read of your link. It wasnt immediately apparent which bit of Ford's decision was related to Brexshit. Can you clarify for me? (skim read on a phone)
ford have been warning that brexit was going to hurt them for a while
with the Ministry for Brexshit warning departments that they should be prepping for a hard Brexit, this will come into play...
[img] 
[/img]
Cap'n,only had a quick skim read of your link. It wasnt immediately apparent which bit of Ford's decision was related to Brexshit. Can you clarify for me? (skim read on a phone)
If we take the report face value, Ford have no more work for the plant so are basically shutting it. They have lost JLR contract and there own demand has gone.
Factory also less productive than others.
Alternative reading, we can't be arsed to try and find some more work because of brexit so now is a good time to close. (keeping the minimum number of staff to ensure they get government subsidies)
So Ford (1) aren't hedging £ in 2017; (2) have no more work for the pleat; (3) have a Welsh factory with a relatively poor productivity record. I am being thick here because none of this seems to be a result of Brexshit. Happy to be corrected....
The Ford announcement sounded to me like they were admitting to have crap management, and NOW using it as justification to close/downgrade the plant.
THM, being honest i think that is a fair appraisal, the only way to link it to brexit is that Ford can't be arsed to find it work because of brexit. But then you have to ask where are the markets. Is there a need for the plant at the end of the M4 about as far from any sales market as possible? I don't think it is easy to argue the plant actually makes sense in that location.
There will be a free rade deal for cars. The Germans and French will insist on it.
I see Junker has at least one option for "the future of the EU" that starts to move tiwards the direction many Europeans want, ie much less EU. EU to consist of only The Single Market with significant curbs on Freedom of Movement. Sounds like what the British where told the EEC would be back in 1975
I was juts reading that Jambas - Junkers Plan 2!!
Hopes of compromise increase by the day.
What his plans still fail to re-iterate is the white elephant in the room. A single currency requires monetary, fiscal and political union. Without this it has to fail. Waste of 32 pages.
@captain if it's worst case scenarios you are looking for I can come up with one for the collpase of the eurozone a recession equal to that of the 1930's
All a bit unnecesary as I voted to stay - we had a brilliant deal. All those slagging off * CMD look pretty silly now
We had a terrible deal, absolutely appalling. Nothing like the EU exists anywhere else in the world as its a sh.t idea. Cameron looks a total arse although in fairness less of one than Osbourne. Cameron had no choice other than to laud his efforts as Herculean and a sucess when in reality it was a failure from the start.
As for the ballot paper being A3 it was a hell of a lot more of a detailed question on the EEC/EU than I have ever had the chance to vote on since I turned 18 in 1981. Both campaigns and especially Remain made it clear it was a one off Referendum and voting Leave meant leaving the single market with 100% certainty.
TMH Junker and Sepp Blatter are cut from the same cloth. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw the Dictator (Junker's disgraceful nickname for the Hungarian PM)
On the contrary we had an amazing deal that will be significantly better than the one that we will end up with. Special status membership of the EU without the Euro, Shengen, closer political union, liabilities to EZ etc..
Brilliant position - turning that down is the biggest example of political, economic and social self-harm in modern history.
Still it is the will of the people.
People really can't see how Ford cutting their investment in a plant that will be making engines that will only go into cars built in EU countries might be linked to planning for us leaving the Single Market? Existing engines coming to end of life… true. Huge investment announced for production of new engine as part of EU strategy… true. Investment now cut by two thirds… true. Why? Because plans for EU production must be adjusted to allow for us leaving EU. Not rocket science. It's also obvious why companies must fight to keep "Brexit" out of all PR to do with EU production plans… I spelt it out clearly at the top of this page…
is that blue peter rocket science or NASA rocket science?
It's not even mentos and cola rocket science.
Kelvin, I would suggest that brexit might be the coup de grace, but the plant was not in the right place, had lost contracts etc. and would have gone in time anyway.
I would suggest that looking at Nissan, BMW, Airbus, and their plans is more important.
teamhurtmore - Member
is that blue peter rocket science or NASA rocket science?
What would be good is space-X science as they seem to be the only people capable of rocket science these days.
NASA don't seem to do anything useful in terms of development.
Cap'n,only had a quick skim read of your link. It wasnt immediately apparent which bit of Ford's decision was related to Brexshit. Can you clarify for me? (skim read on a phone)
I'll just let you read it again, I can't believe that you're not smart enought ot see it, you're usually so good at these things. I guess you're just being obtuse for effect.
Oh you are such a tease Cpn and you picked the article special like!!!
Oh you are such a tease Cpn and you picked the article special like!!!
I didn't pick it special for you, like, did I? Poor liitle poppet, haven't you worked out the Brexshit connection yet?
No, go on give me a clue....
No, go on give me a clue....
Poor liitle thing, and to think they gave you a vote too. 😐
I know and I voted remain - incredible isn't it .
Still no clues.....?
One day I'll teach you to read like a big person, then you might understand, otherwise you'll be kept in the dark.
Clue, there are two references.
Lords have restored my faith a little! Now lets see TM strip the HoL in revenge later.
Thanks, can't wait.
Out of interest how many times does the word Brexit appear in the link you posted? I guess it must be quite a lot...
Out of interest how many times does the word Brexit appear in the link you posted? I guess it must be quite a lot...
I hadn't realised that you needed things spelling out in big letters, you really have learnt well from chewkw, haven't you? Poor little thickie. I'd be more sympathetic towards you, but I can't be arsed.
5? 10?
Can't be difficult to count....obviously it is for a thicky like me, so any help welcome...
😆
Surely it's becoming evident to even the terminally dense (and we all know how they voted) that companies like Ford and Nissan see the utter stupidity of Brexit as either an opportunity to cut their losses, and bugger off from the impending economic catastrophe, or an opportunity to (seriously!) cut their costs.
Something is going to have to compensate them for those new tariffs. So they'll stay on condition of serious savings in other areas. Hmmmmm .... I wonder where those economies will be achieved? Once an ultra right wing Tory government is freed from the constraints of EU Legislation?
It wouldn't be anything as mercenary as Jettisoning workers rights, and environmental and all manner of other industry regulation, then massively reducing corporate taxation, would it?
The most staggering thing about this somewhat obvious progression is that the present labour leader - the very epitome of the words 'terminallly dense' put a 3 line whip in so his MP's waved it through
You really couldn't make it up
mrmo - Member
Lords have restored my faith a little! Now lets see TM strip the HoL in revenge later.
😆 Bye bye Lords coz you have just voted against the people will.
This time they have overstepped their boundary and it is a brilliant excuse to completely reduce them to ceremonial duty.
The Lords are not elected by the people so it's time they just present themselves as tourist attraction. 😆
get a room you two
(um...I mean thm and captainsquit of course)
Of they use Brexshit to pressure Gov to give further incentives.
Loads of lobbying to come all surrounded by Brexshit BS
Binners he was a remainer and he is asking his party to resect the democratic process -plus to his credit he is refusing to bow down to the xenophobes and their immigration BS
And something that shouldn't be forgotten with all this Brexit insanity, just how is local social care doing? How about the NHS? What about the quality of education in some schools???
mrmo - Member
And something that shouldn't be forgotten with all this Brexit insanity, just how is local social care doing? How about the NHS? What about the quality of education in some schools???
brexit is an insanely complicated blackhole,
it will take decades to untangle the many aspects of EU integration, its way beyond the capabilities of our MPs and the civil service has its biggest task ever to sort this crap out
so this black hole will suck in all the governments focus for decades to come
Brexit is complicated? 😛
Of course not. 😆 It is only the madness of trying to hang on to the EU bureaucratic system that is creating all the complication. Absolutely madness.
Binners he was a remainer and he is asking his party to resect the democratic process -plus to his credit he is refusing to bow down to the xenophobes and their immigration BS
Are you here all week? He like the current PM were of the slightly if we really have to be in public remain type, got any great passionate defence of the eu type moments from either.
Democracy is also what happens at Westminster,good on the Lords for showing a bit of human decency and trying to stop people being made bargaining chips in a negotiation a d trying to respect families and remove some massive stress from their lives.
Letwin on C4 News agreeing that the cost to leave could be greater than the cost to stay (lump sum, lump sum ongoing payments and ongoing payments)...
#brexitcarriesongiving
I know it's only a small point but:
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39133400 ]Government defeated on Brexit bill[/url]
Letwin on C4 News agreeing that the cost to leave could be greater than the cost to stay (lump sum, lump sum ongoing payments and ongoing payments)...
So let me get this straight, Brexit costs more, reduces civil service capabilty, doesn't reduce immigration, doesn't result in any greater sovereignty, won't make us personally richer, has increased racism and xenophobia....
So what positives do we have?
And i really shouldn't read some comments on the HoL vote, how dare they try and go against the will of the people etc. How dare they show any compassion to foreigners, etc.
Back to feeling depressed about the scum that i share this country with.
b r - Member
Letwin on C4 News agreeing that the cost to leave could be greater than the cost to stay (lump sum, lump sum ongoing payments and ongoing payments)...
What a dummy that Letwin is ... Nothing last forever so no matter what payment eventually it will come to an end, just like the 43 years in the EU bureaucratic system. Cost of 43 years in EU bureaucratic system vs cost of what time frame ... 43 years? What not wait for 43 years to decide rather than mouthing off rubbish that has no value whatsoever.
slowoldman - MemberI know it's only a small point but:
Government defeated on Brexit bill
It's a brilliant excuse now to curb the Lords ... waste of public money.
Time for them to earn their keep by being the tourist attraction.
What a bunch of non-elected nonsense.
Good for the HoL. Morally important, tactically irrelevant. Makes us all feel better.
Then we simply carry on as before.
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt. Both sides have completely aligned interests.
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt. Both sides have completely aligned interests.
This is the thing, it creates a lot of good will, i see no way that 3M can actually be deported, so might as well be upfront and clear and frame the debate about how you respect the rights of those who are here.
Some really crap bickering and insulting each other on here. Please stop.
Anyway. Interesting thought earlier - if the country does go to the dogs because of Brexit, most brexiteers won't believe that (they'll be in denial) so they'll have no-one else to blame but May. Could result in a kicking at the next GE perhaps?
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt. Both sides have completely aligned interests.
Which so far has not made a difference to the people it impacts, simply writing that into the bill would do and make things much easier for people planning university and schools for their kids or trying to secure a house.
as the line goes
the road to hell is paved with good intentions
(partially) True mrmo.
We shall see if it makes any practical difference. Ping pong anyone?
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt.
There is doubt right now, and we should remove it. People don't know for sure if they will be able to stay here (even when they have family and work here). People are leaving, taking their skills and family with them, or jumping through beaucratic hoops (with a 25% failure rate) in order to keep their right to stay. All avoidable damage to people's lives, and the U.K. as a whole.
What a bunch of non-elected nonsense.
They act as a moderator on the "confederacy of amateurs" in the lower chamber.
Anyway. Interesting thought earlier - if the country does go to the dogs because of Brexit, most brexiteers won't believe that (they'll be in denial) so they'll have no-one else to blame but May. Could result in a kicking at the next GE perhaps?
No, I think you will find some brexiters so far in denial that what ever happens it won't be brexits fault. We can only know one outcome, we can model plenty of others, but they involve experts... So because what you experience can not be framed against an alternative it is quite easy to look for reasons that don't fit your opinion.
If for example there is a 5% reduction in GDP, that won't be brexits fault, it will be foreigners not buying British stuff. If there is a return to the troubles in NI it won't be because a hard border has been imposed, it will be because foreigners refused to allow the porous border to continue. Any issue in Gibraltar will be Spains fault, etc etc etc.
I think you will find some brexiters so far in denial that what ever happens it won't be brexits fault.
That's what I said.
They could decide to blame May for not managing it properly rather than the project itself.
This is the thing, it creates a lot of good will, i see no way that 3M can actually be deported, so might as well be upfront and clear and frame the debate about how you respect the rights of those who are here.
Which is all very well until the EU don't agree to respect of our citizens rights until we have agreed a leaving bill in isolation of the future arrangements. It is a negotiation, you don't concede a point unless you are receiving a concession. We offered to take it off the table, our offer was rejected.
Well we are merely showing our lack of experience in negotiation mefty. Tactically inept, true, but we now have a warm glowing feeling inside.
Let's see what happens in HoC now....
Perhaps when assigning blame we should look in the mirror first. Who lost the easy argument? Who is now trying to obstruct the process? Who is being responsible?
warm glowing feeling
Which is of course fantastic for funding hospitals, social care etc, bugger the money, we are on the moral high ground, shame it is in the middle of a quarry.
Anyway surely Brexit ping pong should be called whiff whaff.
😀
Which is all very well until the EU don't agree to respect of our citizens rights until we have agreed a leaving bill in isolation of the future arrangements. It is a negotiation, you don't concede a point unless you are receiving a concession.
Even if other countries choose to withdraw rights held by UK citizens, we should still tell people currently living and working here perfectly legally that they can stay post Brexit, and, in fact, that we value them and want them to stay. Doing so is entirely in the interests of this country, and is an opportunity for us to grab, not a price of negotiations.
Which is all very well until the EU don't agree to respect of our citizens rights until we have agreed a leaving bill in isolation of the future arrangements. It is a negotiation, you don't concede a point unless you are receiving a concession. We offered to take it off the table, our offer was rejected.
I always thought that the UK was a pretty accepting and overall alright place which is why so many people wanted to come here. Taking the high ground and saying we will not punish anyone who already live in the UK just because they are not from here is a welcome change to a lot of the hate that seems to be out there. If we want to pretend we are in control of the situation and are global leaders it is a good start.
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt. Both sides have completely aligned interests.
Well, you say that, but it would be handy to know if MrsJ should unpack her suitcases, or if she should leave them as is while waiting for a knock on the door from Theresa's storm-troopers.
I have packed some boxes and I am not undoing them for sure 😀
DrJ - we have a spare bedroom to hide her (both of you) in if it kicks off. I'm sure others will do the same.
According to the vote half (possibly more) of the country aren't racist gits.
i see no way that 3M can actually be deported
Is it really only 3 million? All depends how far back you go and on what grounds doesn't it?
For example, mother and father in law both from Belgium but have been in UK since 1960's. Are they on the deportation list?
My wife is Belgian and been here since 1970's (was born in Belgium) and is married to me (UK citizen). IS she on the deportation list?
Are the 3 people above on that 3 million?
Kerley, basically depends on whether they are British citizens or not.
I'm thinking my sister in law and her daughte( my niece) has quite possibly lost her right to live in the U.K. Said she had ILR but has been out of the country for long enough for a zealous border guard could just take it off her next time she tries to visit. As in that recent case in the news.
Poorly handled by May, she should have seen this coming and put it in the bill.
Millions of EU citizens shouldn't have their lives put on hold because of our own country's referendal stupidity.
Senior French researcher leaving do on Friday, as she said she's been working and paying taxes here for 10 years,but if she's no longer welcome makes sense to get out sooner rather than later if there's gonna be a flood of EU professionals heading home to look for jobs.