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I take it back about Theresa
Her introduction to the White Paper is very badly written with sloppy grammar and terrible and incorrect use of superlatives. Did she write it in a hurry?
So, new manifesto and put it to the vote please…
The PM doesn't have the power to do this anymore.
Is she calls a GE, kelvin, she is likely to have a greater majority and more power. Be careful what you wish for....
The PM doesn't have the power to do this anymore.
Correct. But parliament does. In fact, it can do so against the PM's wishes.
she is likely to have a greater majority and more power
Power with a mandate though.
Democracy and all that.
I agree a GE would most likely increase her party's majority
Things can change in surprising ways though.
When did a party last win a majority with a commitment to fully withdraw from the Single Market?
parliament can write a Tory manifesto? The world is weird...
parliament can write a Tory manifesto? The world is weird...
He, and I, where clearly referring to calling a general election.
Don't be a ____.
Correct. But parliament does. In fact, it can do so against the PM's wishes.
Not on a simple majority though - the whole process could easily turn into a bugger's muddle. But there is no constitutional requirement; looking at the polls there is no political requirement; and the economic priority is to remove uncertainty as soon as possible.
Still not prepared to quote what you think in relevant from page 73 and how it supports your view that "in" isn't "in" in the manifesto then, THM.
I don't see how any of the manifesto objectives can be achieved unless Britain is "in" and the manifesto assumes negotiation from within. Once out Britain has no say and Europe's 27 don't have to negotiate anything they don't want to following reception of Article 50 because after two years the default is "out" period, as in out on your ear.
Incidentally typing page 73 into the PDF page search gets you page 71 with the number off the bottom of the page so it really isn't as simple as you were claim and certainly not possible in less than a minute. So what really happens is
Find a browser with English language priority
hunt through results for manifesto.
Find manifesto
find link to PDF
wait for pdf to open
type page 73 insearch
read page 73 (which is page 71 but that I couldn't know)
wonder what THM is on about
Give up
Just as well I took a second look
He was referring to calling a referendum, and implementing the decision.
Could, mefty?
We're there already
Posting favourite bits from the bill?
I'd go for the section on Northern Ireland, but it's too depressingly, dangerously, flawed, so instead, I'll go for…
[img] 
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We're there already
Not really, the Government has sent out a plan, it has been welcomed by the grown ups and coincides with what they were expecting.
Once out Britain has no say and Europe's 27 don't have to negotiate anything they don't want to following reception of Article 50 because after two years the default is "out" period, as in out on your ear.
I don't see why you are banging on* about this, everyone knows this, but if the EU and UK fail to reach a deal it will be a failure of political leadership on both sides of the Channel.
* Other than a spiteful wish to see it happen, which naturally would be completely out of character.
Sorry kelvin, just keep the contributions in line with each other. I won't stoop in future.
Edukator why are you asking me find something that I haven't claimed exists in the first place, are you Ernie in disguise?
Sorry for the inconvenience about the pages numbers, it's abugger that isn't it. Have you not come across that before. Still every day is a learning day as they say.
Sorry for the inconvenience about the pages numbers, it's abugger that isn't it. Have you not come across that before.
But in this case, it is because when someone from a French ISP searches from it, the pages dealing with their manifesto commitment to declare war on France is automatically taken out - crafty.
mefty - Member
Not really, the Government has sent out a plan, it has been welcomed by the grown ups and coincides with what they were expecting.
Sorry I haven't had time to read it yet -!work getting in the way today.
It is good that sovereignty that the Brexies tried to steal has been returned to parliament, so in that sense yes the grown ups are back.
I'll reserve judgement on the rest of who is back in the fair until I see the white paper, but my suspicion is that it won't unify a United Kingdom Brexit has divided. We'll see whether it is the starting gun in the break up of the UK (which I would not like to see) or the first page of our glorious future. It'll probably just become a fudge that sees the UK staying together but stumbling from one cock up to the next.
Sorry I haven't had time to read it yet -!work getting in the way today.
Its ok, not great and terrible intro.
Still it falsifies the idea that there has been no planning. Quite a lot of detail that was new to me.
It is good that sovereignty that the Brexies tried to steal has been returned to parliament, so in that sense yes the grown ups are back.
And have voted
I'll reserve judgement on the rest of who is back in the fair until I see the white paper, but my suspicion is that it won't unify a United Kingdom Brexit has divided.
True, people dont agree on this. Who would want to be in the government who has to pi$$ quite so many, albeit a minority, off. Tough job.
We'll see whether it is the starting gun in the break up of the UK (which I would not like to see) or the first page of our glorious future. It'll probably just become a fudge that sees the UK staying together but stumbling from one cock up to the next.
Nah, the Scots want to be part of the UK. They're not stupid.
TBH i wouldn't blame them if they wanted to go at this point, or the northern irish. the arguments for leaving the UK are all much the same as those for UK leaving the EU, as are the arguments against. 😥
Another extract from the bill:
[img] 
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Deliberate mistake?
Still it falsifies the idea that there has been no planning. Quite a lot of detail that was new to me.
Full of mistakes suggesting poor/rushed prep to me.
Some of the mistakes suggest FCO bypassed as well.
TBH i wouldn't blame them if they wanted to go at this point, or the northern irish. the arguments for leaving the UK are all much the same as those for UK leaving the EU,
Its our Euro!
It'll probably just become a fudge that sees the UK staying together but stumbling from one cock up to the next.
Almost certainly, take the history of the UK over the last 100 years, find me those governments that were capable and upto the job, very few. Most have simply reacted and muddled through. That there are mistakes in the white paper really sets the tone for what follows.
I really do hope that i am wrong, sadly history suggests what is to follow.
Somebody will suggest a reunified Ireland and Scotland applying to become part of it!
Note - not me. I wouldn't dare.
If you are one of the [i]"don't really want to Leave, but sure the government knows what it's doing"[/i] types… DO NOT READ THE WHITE PAPER. Push your head deeper into the sandpit.
so according the bill under UK law I get 14 weeks annual leave a year !!!!
my boss has been lying to me all this time!
or maybe the brexiteers are a bunch of deceitful muppets
hmmmm which could it bee
They might just be incompetent, perhaps we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
I fear though, that their mistakes are due to having deceived themselves that they know what they are doing.
Over confidence paired with underestimating the task ahead of them.
Just back to Kelvins post there, the govt says we "felt like we didnt have sov" when in fact "Parliament has remained sov throughout".
This confuses me somewhat, I thought some people said we lost some sov whilst being in the EU, in fact this is a major point. And yet the arch leave Pm says we remained sov throughout. Can any brexiteers explain this please? What is going on?
I suppose you could see it as the UK "lending" some sovereignty into a pool along with all the other EU countries… for mutual benefit of all our citizens, and now we're saying we won't lend it any longer (only to no doubt lend it again under different terms, once we have a new agreement).
This whole mess is about "feeling" though, nothing to do with our real arrangements, agreements and compromises with our nearest countries. "Feeling" that the UK can stand alone, and make all its own decisions, on its own, is what this is all about. All impossible/fake though, in a world that is so interconnected.
I already get 14 weeks of per year, will I get more after Brexit?
[quote=kimbers ]so according the bill under UK law I get 14 weeks annual leave a year !!!!Obviously written by a school teacher.
This confuses me somewhat, I thought some people said we lost some sov whilst being in the EU, in fact this is a major point. And yet the arch leave Pm says we remained sov throughout. Can any brexiteers explain this please? What is going on?
Although our EU membership meant the surrendering of numerous sovereign powers that would ordinarily be those of the nation state, In theory at least parliament remained 'sovereign', because we still had the power to withdraw from the EU in its entirety.
cause we still had the power withdraw from the EU in its entirety.
Or even partly. We already had our own special carve up, with commitments for even more opt outs and exceptions in future. We had a "cake and eat it" arrangement, where the other countries lent far more sov than us, and yet our citizens benefited just as much as those from other countries. We stopped everyone at our borders, yet we could drive from one end of the continent to the other, hassle free. Amazing that they let us get away with it for so long I suppose.
A different PM might have tried their luck at an even more audacious carve up after the narrow vote to Leave, but May so loves her FoM and ECJ red lines. The bumf that supports the white paper does point out lots of different trade arbitration arrangements around the world by the way, but excludes any that use the word "court" … unsurprisingly. All about letting a supra-national body of some kind make binding rulings on behalf of the states involved… unless you pull out.
Just one point about soveriegnty, the way I understand it every EU rule or law has been ratified by our parliament, we had the right of veto over anything. So we have never had a loss of choice.
Kelvin, apart from the intro which bits of the white paper specifically should we avoid.
The sovereignty, yes it's even more complicated than "in" so you have my sympathies there. But is there anything else we can help with.
Its our Euro
Bravo. Best post of the thread so far???
Remember how everyone took the pi$$ out of Dave's Deal? They should have thought hard about it first. Much better than anything that will come from this. But he was a Tory (spit) and even worse was educated at Slough Grammar (spit).
Just one point about soveriegnty, the way I understand it every EU rule or law has been ratified by our parliament, we had the right of veto over anything. So we have never had a loss of choice.
Nope, the 1975 act means that many EU rules are enacted by secondary legislation & statutory instrument, and where that conflicts with UK law, the EU rule takes precedence.
Kelvin, apart from the intro which bits of the white paper specifically should we avoid.
Are you after a list of mistakes, or empty platitudes, or doublespeak?
I'll leave that to others, I hope some journalists are busy on that now, and doing their jobs.
I'm not expecting many MPs to do so.
Feel free to read it all if you want to feel disappointed.
Remember how everyone took the pi$$ out of Dave's Deal?
By "everyone", do you mean the Daily Mail, or perhaps whoever was on Labour's front bench that week?
Any specifics, you choose - how about something that is factually wrong. That's a good starting point. I have only managed a very quick skim read so far, Leave out May's intro, that is poor, DD's less so. Lets stick to the meat.
There were loads in Scotland's Future and that took at least a day to write. This was knocked up by an intern and sent out arter 02;00 this morning, so there must be loads. Shall we start with the best three?
Tony Benn around 1:30 talks about Sovereignty.
I could never decide how much weight to allocate to it as an issue or even which way that weight pushes.
I've given you a nice obvious mistake. Find the others yourself. You're keen on sending others off to look for themselves THM… off you go…
I said a factual a error.
gosh you are a spoilsport, will have to read it myself now and you said that was such a waste of time, So much for STW solidarity. How long did it take to read?
"I've given you a nice obvious mistake. Find the others yourself. You're keen on sending others off to look for themselves THM… off you go…"
Maybe not for THM, but how about for me. Don't be shy just 3 factual mistakes.
Lazy! I hinted at some when I posted the "obvious" error. Read the section on Ireland. Full of mistakes.
The one that first made me think that the FCO had been bypassed?
"[b]Protocol 22 of the EU treaties[/b]"… is about the borders of Denmark, they mean Protocol 21
Trust me, as a layman, every section I have read has glaring errors.
Now, go look for your own, or wait for the journos to.
Well the "feeling" line is odd, I will grant you that as is the inadequate (so far) treatment of resolution frameworks - and the obvious issue of sovereignty that these imply.
Tone is weird in places and jumps around a bit.
Your knowledge on protocal numbering is exceptional - do you work for the FCO?
Immigration section is poor - but then again they have no facts to argue with. Ho hum...
Its an easy read at least. I wonder how old the intern was?
No, I've previously read up on the NI border situation, hoping to find anyone who had a real solution to keeping it open.
Result: I found no answer.
I know someone at the FCO, who has had ambassador rank in the past, hence comments about staffing levels earlier in the thread, and attempting to offer corrections when others made assertions about what an ambassador is/does.
Still "incredible" knowledge of the numbering. Im impressed
Some folk on redditt have spotted this too now - news is spreading. But we heard it first!
Can we not have a United Ireland with both Scotland and England tagged on? Keep Gods own county out of it though. We need a Free (well cheap) and Independant Yorkshire. Clear off the lot of you n take the EU with you.
Well, I hope you don't think I read about it elsewhere THM.
4 hours ago…
I'd go for the section on Northern Ireland, but it's too depressingly, dangerously, flawed, so instead, I'll go for…
The whole section is awful and amateurish… but, as I said, no one else has an approach laid out as regards the border. If there is going to be an open border, both EU and Eire will have to make changes… and probably suggest the changes themselves, I don't see our lot coming up with something workable. I hope it doesn't result in us forcing certs of origin on Eire manufacturers because of our stupid decision to make everything more difficult for own.
Why would I suggest that, never crossed my mind.
The trade section is little more that some background olus we will work towards a best solution. You were (partially) correct, a slower reading is disappointing to say the least. Still not much material to go on really is there?
I am going for second uni student doing an internship?
Cut and paste … led by ministers and their political teams, not experienced civil servants… that's my guess.
poor old Sir Ivan, he must be spitting
Feel sorry for the younger ones, further down, lower paid, with kids, and far from pension age. The ones whose experience and knowledge is overlooked because they don't have the Brexit fervour and zeal, and can't move sideways (which areas aren't touched by this mess), and can't really just give up on their careers.
why, they have more to do now?
Clearly someone needs to draw on their experience. And demand > supply so their wages could/should rise.
poor old Sir Ivan, he must be spitting
On a related note, when Osbourne mentioned he had spoken to political leaders of other EU countries in the house yesterday, the boos and jeers went up. So many simply don't want to know what's going on in other countries, and are suspicious of those that try to find out, and pass the information on.
why, they have more to do now?
Obviously. With the suspicion that all work done is "wrong" if it is "off message".
[i][ That is just my guess by the way, I haven't dared to ask. ][/i]
Just watched Envoyé Spécial on F2, my, my, Fillon is cooked.
All slotting nicely into place...
Thought the Conclusion section of the White paper started off Okish but sorta went off the rails the closer you got to thend.
I could almost hear the band playing rule Britannia when reading that bit.
Hopefully the film adaption will better.
@Edukator yes indeed, seems incredible he would have been so inept. Could have unintneded consequences for the left/centre, ie worse for them ? From this list if the last two are Le Pen and Jupe/Macro suggests Le Pen has a greater chance than vs Fillion ?
Le Pen
Jupe
Macron
Hamon
@mike I think you misunderstand the data/statements today. Effectively the BoE has said Brexit is expected to have no negative effect in 2017 - after vote they downgraded their 2017 forecast to 0.8% it has now been revised upwards to 2.3% ie pretty much what if was before. The Remain propoganda had is in a significant recession.
Will read the rest of the White Paper Tomorrow. This from the into sums up my feelings
Not merely forming a new partnership with Europe, but building a stronger, fairer, more Global Britain too.
And let that be the legacy of our time. The prize towards which we work. The destination at which we arrive once the negotiation is done.
And let us do it not for ourselves, but for those who follow. For the country’s children and grandchildren too.
So that when future generations look back at this time, they will judge us not only by the decision that we made, but by what we made of that decision.
[b]They will see that we shaped them a brighter future.
They will know that we built them a better Britain.”[/b]
They should definitely paint that onto the side of a big red bus.
Also EU having a crises over the likely US Ambassador 🙂 in fairness you can understand given the broadside he delivered on the BBC
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/02/european-union-trump-ambassador-ted-malloch-parliament
Supposedly the EU are discussing a "responce" to Trump's stance on refugees. Given the disaterous mess they have made with tragic consequences both for migrants themselves drowing in the Med by the 1000's (including the largest single death toll from a boat which departed from Egypt containing mostly Moroccans and Tunisians) or victims of terrorism at the hands of those claiming to be refugees - I am not sure on what authority they think they will be speaking
Will read the rest of the White Paper Tomorrow. This from the into sums up my feelings
All good conrete stuff to hang your hat on. The depths of stupidity that is leading the way in this complete and utter ballsup. A predicted brighter future and a better Britain.
FFS! How stupid are the voting public?
Amazing how the couldn't have circulated this earlier 😉 would have made some interesting points in the debate...
Jamby how can anyone make predictions on the severity of the impact of brexit without listing them by possible outcomes.
Not merely forming a new partnership with Europe, but building a stronger, fairer, more Global Britain too.And let that be the legacy of our time. The prize towards which we work. The destination at which we arrive once the negotiation is done.
And let us do it not for ourselves, but for those who follow. For the country’s children and grandchildren too.
So that when future generations look back at this time, they will judge us not only by the decision that we made, but by what we made of that decision.
They will see that we shaped them a brighter future.
They will know that we built them a better Britain.”
Just mastabatory aid for the Brexopaths. I also understand Vera Lynn is about to re-release her greatest hits so they'll really be able to go for it.
Effectively the BoE has said Brexit is expected to have no negative effect in 2017 - after vote they downgraded their 2017 forecast to 0.8% it has now been revised upwards to 2.3% ie pretty much what if was before
Not quite.
The November forecast for 2017 growth was 1.4%, it is now 2%.
The forecast without triggering A50 (which technically I suppose hasn't happened yet) was 2.3% pre-vote and 0.8% if we were 7 months into the negotiations by now (which we clearly aren't). But these two figures were without the effect of the BoE's stimulus package - exchange rates and inflationary effects (small thus far but coming) ought to have been factored in as that was predictable.
So in reality, we're below where we would have been without the vote, but above where we were predicted to be if we'd triggered A50 7 months ago and not had a stimulus package.
That's all roughly factual - and shouldn't really surprise anyone.
The BoE look to be doing excellent recovery work. Pity they have to.
Yep imagine what they could have done instead...
Remain's economic project fear has been totally shredded.
At the EU summit in Malta May will update the EU on her meeting with Trump and his goal to have European nations meet their NATO 2/20 spending targets. Germany alone is €30bn per anum below target. EU NATO members are in a very weak position
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38849868
Remain's economic project fear has been totally shredded.
The predictions were post brexit, or were these other predictions about the time before brexit that nobody made
Isn't it interesting that the white paper recognises that so much of Brexit is about people's feelings, rather than facts?
e.g.:
"The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always [i]felt[/i] like that."
Emotions.
Well it is/was. Facts were/are irrelevant as were/are the expers who understand them. The Brexshit case was based on five core lies that made people feel bad. It was brilliantly awful and worked.
Hence impressive that they, or some intern, managed to spin out so many pages of background material to produce what looks like a white paper. Although tbf there were a few things where the background material covered stuff that I didn't understand eg Euratom
Jambas, while Osborne and Co did ramp up the hyperbole, it s largely because they/the headlines misquoted the work that they referred to. GOs doomsday headlines were based on the Treasury's models. The main one was a fifteen year forecast and there was a supplementary one that was a two year forecast.
We have been through neither adjustment period. All we have had is 7 months during which we have had a massive stimulatory boost of a 20% devaluation and a cut in interest rates fuelling higher-than-expected consumer spending competing against uncertainty and rising inflationary expectations. The real negative impacts eg, rising rates and disruptions to trade have yet to happen.
Bloody Nora, we appear to be agreeing again THM.
Walk away quietly, whistling an innocent tune.
Brexiters must be so proud to have T MAY as Trump ally.
No more spoilers on the WP by the way, that's my Saturday night entertainment. Sounds like it's a comedy / Whitehall farce - no?
Remain's economic project fear has been totally shredded.
Project arsehole is bang on track though.
If we do start building a better Britain now, it will be if the government starts properly investing in the country for a change instead of running into the ground.
I would rather hope that is the private sector doing most of the investment
Remain's economic project fear has been totally shredded.
I feel that we are in so much of a better place for it too. I can't wait to see what happens when A50 kicks in for real and proper negotiations start and not the Trumpesque bluff and bluster of aiming for a better place and that we'll like it when we get there.
I wish I could have as much blind faith as you Jamba, unfortunately in the real world it is somewhat more difficult. 😛
The fact that something hasn't happened doesn't mean that the opposite has.
cchris2lou - Member
Brexiters must be so proud to have T MAY as Trump ally.
No, not proud yet as the job of dismantling the entire EU bureaucratic system has not been completed yet.
Remain's economic project fear has been totally shredded.
I don't think this helps, the fact is that the remains fears were about when we leave the EU. As it stands we have not left yet.
And the BOE have carried out stimulus to help things along in the short term.
I still want to understand what the berexit economic model is, the answers so far have been weak.
There must be members of the brexit camp on here who can actually explain what is going to happen?