[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Only 114.

498:114

Now lets get on with things

[b]Ayes 498
Noes 114

Ayes have it.

Ayes have it.[/b]

😆

Yep. Now the real business of pushing the Brexies out starts.
Or as THM calls it negotiations and compromise.

I've already put a warning shot across my MPs bows. We'll ever little (and it is little I know) helps.

498 Tory enablers.

Pants down.

You noticed the 'trust the people' mantra - so presumably the 498 can blame them when it all goes west.

Its not quite over though right? Another reading next week and a vote and then the lords?

Its not quite over though right? Another reading next week and a vote and then the lords?

Including all but 47 Labour MPs

Salmond talking about disruption next week! Angry man. Finds it tough to accept votes doesn't he!!

Seems fair to me THM. Why should he like a cowardly house?

Pants down.

What's he got to do with it - didn't he retire years ago?

Yes much better to ignore the vote!! Salmond now telling more lies on Beeb news. Leopards and spots.

Osborne was perfectly right, the economics is/was obvious. The voters focused on different issues that meant more to them. Incorrectly IMO but that doesn't matter. We lost.

Waaaah, waaaah, advisory, waaaah, waaah, not legally binding, waaah waaah, referenda have no place in a representative democracy, waaaaah waaah, parliamentary supremacy, waaah

🙂

Agreed THM - but why should he like it?

I have more respect for his honesty than the cowards hiding behind "the will of the people (even though we know it's a car crash)".

You might not agree with his view (and having met him I'd generally recommend that) but at least for once he is being honest - beeb news aside, I haven't seen that.

[i]Salmond talking about disruption next week! Angry man. Finds it tough to accept votes doesn't he!! [/I]

Not sure you're aware how this works, do you just give in and accept something that you feel is wrong or continue the fight?

Universal suffrage for example didn't just 'happen'.

Why are you crying, ninfan? It's a bad day I know, but you'll probably be ok.

And if you mean those who asked for parliamentary sovereignty, then we got that, and in the commons at least we now have a result.
We can get on with trying to change that in line with normal democratic processes.
Feel free to join us.

By the way I did love it earlier when you claimed to have "pwned" me. Had me in stitches. You must learn to read what is written.

'kin Salmond arguing about "listening to the people"!!!

The man who lies to people and then refuses to listen to them.

Edit: he gave up honesty a long time ago IGM. Offer him a referendum vote tomorrow and see how he reacts. Bloody chancer

Starmer talking sense - much more sense. He is one of the few showing leadership.

Yes the tories have certainly taken full ownership of the decision now. No buck-passing or excuses if and when it all goes horrbly pear-shaped in the coming months and years.

If they turn out to be visionaries who Make the UK Great Again by their actions then they'll have earnt my undying gratitude and loyal vote for the rest of my days.

To be honest 😉 THM, I don't think he gave it up. For that he'd have to have had it to begin with.

I was hoping he'd found it.

All but 114 MPs own the decision not just the government, They wanted the opposite but like most of Labour they are respecting the result. Ownership shared.

Not sure you're aware how this works, do you just give in and accept something that you feel is wrong or continue the fight?

Universal suffrage for example didn't just 'happen'

Suffrage...
[i]noun
1. the right to vote, especially in a political election.
2. a vote given in favor of a proposed measure, candidate, or the like.[/i]

...or does it mean the right to vote in the election, but if you lose you jump up and down, re-run the election over and over until you get your own way?

I think the term "her Majesty's opposition" should be dropped in favour of something more appropriate? However this being STW I'll refer you to a Romy Schneider film from 1955.

The Last Man?

I'll direct this at THM, as I know my honourable friend disagrees with me.
I think I may have worked out my problem with the exhortations to "accept the result". It makes Britain look like one of these tinpot "democratic" dictatorships. You know the ones. They have a vote, which may or may not have been rigged, and then everyone has to accept it as the new president declares himself head of state for all eternity. (I'm not saying the June 23rd vote was rigged by the way - unless someone has other information, it wasn't.)

I neither accept nor reject the vote. The vote happened. It was 51.9:48.1 leave. It doesn't need accepting or rejecting it is a mere fact. Nothing more or less.

The interesting thing is what you do with that vote, that fact.

In the tinpot dictatorship you are told, the vote has happened the President is for life, get used to it.

But that is not democracy, is it?

Now pause for a moment and reflect.

Done that.

No a true democracy is one where we say, there was a vote, now what does that mean? Do we still mean that? How do we challenge it? A true democracy is one where we say "I wholly disapprove of what you say—and will defend to the death your right to say it."*

And that has been missing. The press have tried to clamp down on remoaners and Bremoaners and enemies of the people. The 48% have been denied there right to speak.

And perhaps it is different on here, and perhaps, Jamba, that is why you are reaping the whirlwind.

But this is not democracy we are seeing in this country. This is democracy's slowly cooling corpse.

*there are other versions of that quote

[I]
At a glance | Theresa May's 12-point Brexit plan

1 Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU
2 Control of our own laws
3 Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom
4 Maintain the Common Travel Area with Ireland
5 Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe
6 Rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU
7 Protect workers' rights
8 Free trade with European markets through a free trade agreement
9 New trade agreements with other countries
10 The best place for science and innovation
11 Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism
12 A smooth, orderly Brexit[/I]

So, with the exception of No.1 & 12 (which are duplicates) we have all these already - and we're going to jeopardise No.2-11 just to get No.1 & 12?

Madness.

THM, could argue that salmond is representing the will of his constituents, remind me what was the vote in Scotland and what party does he represent?

I agree, its what you do with it 100% and the Government will ultimately be judged on that.

Again Starmer understood the "challenge" bit very well and pointed out where Labour had achieved "some" concessions already. His approach is in direct contrast to AWOL (Corbyn) or In-youse-face (the deceitful one).

I think a tinpot democracy is far more likely to have a vote and then ignore it if they dont like the decision.

So you are correct, I do disagree with you. What we have seen is the exact opposite of what you describe but I thank the honourable gentleman for his question - as hard as it was to understand 😉

My frustration "remains" that this is still a total waste of time. Europe will be a very different place by the time we exit. We voted on something that has a very short shelf life which is rather pointless.

More worryingly, I look around at the geopolitical arena and for the first time in life am slightly but genuinely fearful. Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit

1. to remain in the UK
2. to remain in the EU

You can decide which is more important - pretty bloody obvious. But then again if you think that independence is synonymous with abdicating monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt, Berlin[/s] Brussels then go ahead and argue for it. It would be amusing if nothing else

He was simply spouting shite this evening

More worryingly, I look around at the geopolitical arena and for the first time in life am slightly but genuinely fearful. Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit

Oh that my learned and honourable friend is absolutely correct.
The geopolitical axes are shifting.
A Chino-European bloc and a Russo-American bloc are not unthinkable. Not sure I'd say likely yet, but possible.

Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit

we did the build up to WWII in GCSE history

obvs we are not in that position now, but the division, the demagoguery, the politicians and campaigners congratulating themselves on their bus sized lies and how they used them to manipulate the debate

this has the feel of the start of something, I think it will be something bad

it might all be fine but I think that a fine line will have to be walked

More worryingly, I look around at the geopolitical arena and for the first time in life am slightly but genuinely fearful. Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit

I read a article earlier i can't remember where so can't link, who would have thought the death of a relatively unimportant person Archduke Ferdinand would have left 17M dead.

Add this to Plato i read a while back and it really isn't looking good!

Indeed but jokes aside about post truth politics, I do fear for what is happening, who is in charge, how facts are becoming irrelevant, how people are behaving. My neck tingles as I write this. I think that the world is in a very unstable and you only need minor events to be catalysts for much bigger problems.

Trump is a far greater concern for me than Brexshit frankly - hence I can have a bit of a laugh/be serious here. But the Trump thread makes me just angry.

I was angry after the Brexshit vote, but that passed v quickly in favour of getting on with things. It will last longer with Trump I fear.

it might all be fine but I think that a fine line will have to be walked

I was one of the few who DIDNT laugh at CMD when he effectively said the same thing

I want to reach out to people near and far and yet our leaders are doing exactly the opposite. They are badly, badly mistaken.

10 The best place for science and innovation

ROFL. It's not just media stories, but direct from colleagues, I've heard of several european scientists based in the UK looking to leave.

Brexshit is a ****ing stupid idea, But i have a reasonably paid job not rich but above average wage. I see NO benefits but hey... As long as i get paid! ( which when your wages come from CAP payments....)

But yes Trump... Will he go full Erdogan? that is when you really have to worry. The US is already a country that isn't really that outward looking, what is the chances of citizens looking for alternative to Fox?

3 Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom

Lolz, good luck with that!

I have innovation funding to spend. Proposals on a postcard.

Actually I really do. I can find the skills in the UK to spend it (wisely)

THM, the thin line would have been to look at Swiss and Norway. not removing ourselves from custom union and nuclear treaties....

The cynic might point to a Tory power grab knowing Labour are irrelevant

thecaptain - Member
ROFL. It's not just media stories, but direct from colleagues, I've heard of several european scientists based in the UK looking to leave.

I know some whove already left and several not bothereing to even try renewing funding

you only have to look at the sparkly new labs unfilled at the £1bn Crick centre to see that something is wrong

there are concerted efforts to ensure that our government will fund future work but theres no doubt that the UKs reputation and confidence has taken a hit
20 years in science working with the best researchers from all over europe and the rest of the world, even during the 2008 recession when a lot of funding dried up, it was never this uncertain.

3 Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom

mrmo - i am confident that we will end up far closer to that situation that you might think now.

Excuse me as I am 100% ignorant on the Euratom (?) thing, not my bag. But could we move to between CU and EEA - yes, quite possibly.

IGM - you dont work in LDN near Vic Gardens do you?

Nope. Castleford. Small ex-mining town on the A1-M62 junction. With an indoor ski slope.
Live in York.
Scientists with good power systems innovation ideas can form an orderly queue, but I am off to talk to American universities too as part of a UK SIN thing. Was doings bit for the Dept Int Trade folk too.
All very minor you understand.

Actually living in York and working in Cas had been interesting during the whole preamble to the Brexit debate.
You definitely got both sides which I suspect many didn't.
That said someone once said something about the greatest argument against democracy was meeting the average voter.

Got it.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Actually living in York and working in Cas had been interesting during the whole preamble to the Brexit debate.

Like anyone in Cas actually gives a shite?

THM, hopefully you are right, we will find out long before the two years is up IMO.

Like anyone in Cas actually gives a shite?

UKIP came second to Yvette Cooper

And 71% cared enough to vote leave.

Red liines on both sides will be pink before not too long

We correctly frame discussions around the four current frameworks for continuing "access to" the single market at fhe moment. But in reality, I think we WILL end up with a unique deal. We shall see!!!

I still can't grasp the fact that we've been in the EU for X no of years but Her Majesty's Prison Service aquires our uniforms from China. 😯

'Cos you can do trade outside EU even when you're in it innit?

Sorry

Popular sovereignty > Parliamentary sovereignty

Newsnight, Prof Bognador

teamhurtmore - Member
Popular sovereignty >

is that mob rule?

Or a massive gap between Parliament and those it's is supposed to serve ?

I do fear for what is happening, who is in charge, how facts are becoming irrelevant, how people are behaving.

Don't you include May in that?

Actually no. As I said before, I have been surprised at how she has handled this. I was not a fan before her election and think that her track record has been poor. But On Brexshit, so far, I have been surprised on the upside.

I appreciate that I will catch some cop for that, but that is my view. I actually think that she will steer us away from the more extreme positions - perhaps having two woman at centre stage "may" be a good thing. Their egos are smaller and they do not worry about the size of their dicks.

We shall see. I "may" be wrong and her histiory pre-all this suggests that this is likely. But there we go.

Don't you include May in that?

I think she looked dangerously naive with trump

he absolutely hung her out to dry by signing his muslim ban as she flew to meet Erdogan, a few hours before patting her hand and being chummy it all seemed like she was handling him very well.

....she looked weak and indecisive at the press conference in Turkey, refusing to condemn that ban because she knows we are desperate for a trade deal

theres no way in a million years wed be inivting trump on a state visit if brexit hadnt made us so vulnerable.

Also she was outflanked by Farage who got there first and the Gove went behind her back for his interview (ask borris what gove will do to an exposed back)

Shes got a tough job + keeping some particularly nasty Tories in check she has her work cut out for her, appointments of Johnson & Fox and to a lesser extent Davies also pointing to some questionable decision making

@5nplus8 - my point on pensions is that you cannot fix the problem with more immigrants. It wasn't an argument against immigration. I am pro immigration but against EU freedom of movement. We need to decide how many people we want, what skills they should have etc.

Listened to quite a lot of debate speeches .. used the mute today, Milliand (tick) Osbourne (tick) Salmond (mute)

Surpised to see no commentary on Sir Ivan. Clearly a bitter man and no surprise he was fired. He's quite right about how grumpy the EU is going to be during the negotiations, they are facing the loss of a huge part of their budget unless they can pursude the other handful of net contributors to take up the slack. France and Germany have eections and another €6-8bn between them for the EU is not a vote winner.

"Populism"

there's no way in a million years we'd be inivting trump on a state visit if brexit hadn't made us so pliant

Trump's win is a big boost to us, a strongly anti-Eu pro-UK President. He will put pressure onnthe European NATO members and the eurozone via the IMF. Germany has pointed out (admitted) that unless fhe IMF approves bailout oayments the deal has to go back to EU Parliaments - Merkel has given herself the rope to hang herself and the rest with. In that sense he's a gift.

We are not being plaint but it would be naive to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Trump's win is a big boost to us, a strongly anti-Eu pro-UK President.

You say that because you, like post brexit britain, desperately need it to be true to justify your position

Why would a man who has built his entire campaign on putting america first suddenly be nice to us?

he played May for a fool once already, he will continue to use her to further his own position
As if the world werent already laughung at us, still it serves a s awarning to the EU 27 - if you eave youll have to deal with the likes of Trump
Not to mention the PR disaster of his Muslim visaclusterfk with Jihadis celebrating the 'blessed ban'

Putins puppet (thats Trump not LePen or Farage) will not be good for the UK

Trump's win is a big boost to us

You've got to be ****ing kidding.

A dangerous petulant child in charge of the US? You think that's a good idea?

You ever think that maybe, just maybe, not everyone on the right is brilliant?

You say that because you, like post brexit britain, desperately need it to be true to justify your position

Why would a man who has built his entire campaign on putting america first suddenly be nice to us?

No need to justify anything, most things seem to have worked out "my way" in the past few years with Brexit being the most significant.

We like the US support reform of the UN and NATO members paying their 2/20. Doing bilateral trade deals with countries of similar Economic standing is a win-win and Trump sees that. He's ok with Canada in NAFTA, its Mexico which is the issue for US jobs.

most things seem to have worked out "my way" in the past few years

Yeah, homelessness up, inequality up, NHS funding crisis, you're ****ing thrilled to bits aren't you? I cannot possibly understand how you could be so thoughtless to be pleased with how things are turning out.

inequality up

Nope

Doing bilateral trade deals with countries of similar Economic standing

Who would that be then. Not basket case Britain and the US - May begging the UK to become the 51st state of the US? You said before we don't need trade deals - your own interests being served by going straight to WTO.

Homelessness up - well huge net migration every year is helping there I bet
NHS massively underfunded, we won't as a country vote to fix that (note also Labour's extra £2bn vs Tory £8bn). Also see chart I have posted before re NHS spending and fact to "standstill" it needs 4% extra pa, that's nearly 22% each Parliament
Inequality isn't up, its down. Also measures distorted by house prices and don't take into account value of nhs and welfare available

My God.. no wonder you're such a Tory. You've got the bluest tinted glasses in existence.

It's all going SWIMMINGLY! YAY TORIES!

Persistantjambafact!

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8bn-nhs-funding-claim-misleading-wc8sz6wls

Stop with this blatant and discredited lie. It's even beneath you.

As if the world werent already laughung at us,

I cannot possibly understand how you could be so thoughtless to be pleased with how things are turning out.

It is down to genetics. Some people just don't have empathy and those people would lean towards the right. Some people have stronger competition (win at all costs) and those people would lean towards the right.
This characteristics are difficult to change as they as what you are.

Probably why it is so difficult for those people that care about equality and fairness above success (whose success is again mostly gene based luck) find it impossible to work out what is going through their heads.

TJ - hate to say this but Jamba's doing a bus on you and you've bitten. You can't fight BS with facts.

Who's laughing at us? Not America, not China, not Russia, not any of the EU. Who's laughing? I'm calling bullshit on that statement.

And I'm calling bullshit on your bullshit. I work with people from most of those countries. If not outright laughter there's certainly a bemused smirk whenever UK politics and Brexit is mentioned.

Who's laughing at us? Not America, not China, not Russia, not any of the EU. Who's laughing? I'm calling bullshit on that statement.

Most of the Europeans I work with think we are now a joke, having cut our selves off from a huge chunk of science funding,
There's a Turkish Dr who thinks we are idiots, A Sri lankan who can't believe we've done this, some poles who are quite worried more than anything else.
the American in my lab is too worried that her husband won't be able to get medical insurance coz of his pre-exisyimg condition under trump-care when they go back.
1 ukranian who thinks we've been played by Putin
Chinese woman sits behind me, thinks that we are mad to throw it away
A couple of Aussies and kiwis who thought that Britain was a more tolerant place than its turned out to be.....

In my department of about 100 out of maybe 50 I know theres 1 scientist and 1 security guard who voted for Brexit.

The americans I work with laugh at us for Brexit just as we laugh at them for Trump.

jambalaya - Member
@5nplus8 - my point on pensions is that you cannot fix the problem with more immigrants. It wasn't an argument against immigration. I am pro immigration but against EU freedom of movement. We need to decide how many people we want, what skills they should have etc.

eg read this from the FT https://www.ft.com/content/49b3fcd4-63f9-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa

I am sure you have a good reason, I just want to get to the bottom of why this brexit idea works?

Jambas argument falls over on execution. Where is there any evidenc that supports the Tory plan for 10k net migration - or whatever the figure is. Nowhere. It's just a number that isn't zero but is small enough or keep the xenophobes happy. It's BS.

Immigration has benefitted the economy with migrants from the EU making a greater positive impact than migrants from non EU. So what do we propose.....nonsensical, xenophobic BS.