[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

If you are concerned that the countries population is too high then you would also be for controlling the population via other means (number of children permitted etc,.) but don't hear that mentioned much?

If you suggest population control by limiting incomers you get called a racist. If you suggest population control by limiting family numbers you get called a Nazi - the angst is far worse.

I'm not a brexiter but I am in favour of population control by both limiting immigration *and* limiting family numbers, I rarely admit to the former in conversation and I would never dare admit to the latter. There are some things you can't say.

Interestingly, although 90pc of my friends would go ballistic if I admitted the above, they *all* object to any new build planning applications in our area and campaign accordingly.

But i am allowed to judge them by the company they keep and the Brexy campaign was walking shoulder to shoulder with EDL beliefs.

Well in that case I think we can all agree that the Nazis believed in a united Europe, so can we tar the remain campaign with the same brush?

Well in that case I think we can all agree that the Nazis believed in a united Europe, so can we tar the remain campaign with the same brush?

...and nobody will ever better them in terms of moving Labour between countries.

I suppose the big difference between the Nazi view of a United Europe and the EU view is that the Nazis wanted it to be dominated by Germany... Oh hang on...

Brexie snowflakes 😉 complaining about namecalling?

the problem is that the rightwing press have been able to spout xenophobic nonsense for decades (thanks to an an impotent PCC)
from health tourism to bendy bananas

making fertile ground for UKIP and the staright up lies of Vote Leave
to scapegoat the EU for our own government failings

its happy days if you are a racist, Brexit & Trump, LePenn the politics of hate and the alt-right are a powerful lure to those whove been left behind by their own governments

On name calling… this just brings us back to…

[b][i]"It's not about immigrants"
"It's all about immigrants"[/i][/b]

Suggest that fear of immigrants, or blaming of immigrants, or, at its very worst, hatred of immigrants, are core motivations for many people who voted Leave, and you are accused of name calling.

Suggest that a Leave vote was not a mandate to stop FoM, and you are accused of trying to subvert democracy.

So… Leave… is it not about immigrants… is it all about immigrants…?

ooohh can I just add that my favourite insult of the alt-right (they use it on here a bit) is 'Virtue Signalling'

because signalling that you are virtuous is obviously a bad thing 🙄

On name calling… this just brings us back to…

"It's not about immigrants"
"It's all about immigrants"

Suggest that fear of immigrants, or blaming of immigrants, or, at it's very worst, hatred of immigrants are core motivations for many people who voted Leave, and you are accused of name calling,

Suggest that a Leave vote was not a mandate to stop FoM, and you are accused of trying to subvert democracy.

So… Leave… is it not about immigrants… is it all about immigrants…?

False dichotomy. It can be all about immigration, without being all about immigrants.

They recently built 5000 homes near me. Everyone was up in arms. We didn't want 5000 new families crowding out our already crowded area.

We didn't have any personal issue with the people moving in, but we didn't want them there all the same.

In the same way, if they built 5000 and sold them to Eskimos, we'd still be against it. But it wouldn't be a problem with Eskimos.

And yes, people would point out the economic benefit we got. The near worthless agricultural land near us is now worth many many millions.

But none that matters, if you're arguing with a racist, calling him a racist *still* doesn't help win the argument. You have to explain the the benefits and hope that overcomes his dislike of the race in question. It won't always, but just stating "You are a racist" definitely won't.

Trying to guess people's motives never wins an argument - they know what their motives are, you don't need to guess and tell them what your guess is.

because signalling that you are virtuous is obviously a bad thing

It's bad if what you're asking for is unworkable.

The time to worry about whether it is counter productive to call xenophobes and racists out for being xenophobic and racist is as you say Jamba gone.
Now is the time to start stamping on xenophobia and racism every time you see it.

Ninfan - I'm calling you out as a barrack room lawyer. And not a good one as by your logic all nazis would be Romans. Fool

"Now is the time to start stamping on xenophobia and racism every time you see it."

Very commendable. Can you give me an example of you doing that recently, being really specific about what the racism was and what your stamping consisted of.

some good points from Ivan Rogers putting the

'we should just leave now' brexies in their place

He says a lot of single market access depends upon trade being certified by bodies that the UK will not recognise after Brexit. So access to the single market will automatically lapse without new agreements.

For example, medicines authorised by EU bodies will not be able to go on sale after Brexit without that authorisation.

If the UK walks away without a deal, and is reliant on WTO terms, you need to understand what that means.

[i]If the UK walks away without a deal, and is reliant on WTO terms, you need to understand what that means.[/I]

Yep, been saying it every since whichever idiot it was that said we'd go WTO 'terms'.

And now go look at the implication on agricultural export under WTO. Who's going to give up quota's to enable us to sell back into the EU?

Do you dispute this?

No, I am disputing the idea that Brexies have already resorted to murder. You appear to be struggling with that and the core issues under debate here.

grow up

Ok, but how will I be able to engage with you then?

That all depends why you are concerned and what it is based on.

Indeed, the concerns expressed had no factual basis and we based purely on an irrational fear of foreigners ie, xenophobia. It was a very clear example, about as clear as you could get.

From Bank's book

I’m clear how we can help win the referendum: by acting as the provisional wing of the Brexit campaign, doing and saying the things that, as leader of Britain’s third biggest political party, Nigel can’t. I’ve told him my priority will be to put immigration at the heart of the debate and engage millions of voters who dislike and distrust the political classes.....

....‘Let’s shake this up,’ I said cheerfully. ‘The more outrageous we are, the more attention we’ll get; the more attention we get, the more outrageous we’ll be.’ He (NF) looked a little unconvinced by this strategy. ‘Only time will tell if you and Wigmore are geniuses or complete idiots,’ he said.

Both?

OOB - given it will be easy for you to check, you will find examples on this very thread where I have suggested to individuals that they might want to reconsider their words as the potential to be interpreted as xenophobic / racist was there. Gentle stamping perhaps, but language was moderated - for a bit at least.

teamhurtmore - Member

Do you dispute this?

No, I am disputing the idea that Brexies have already resorted to murder. You appear to be struggling with that and the core issues under debate here.

He is a Brexy. He resorted to murder. As you say, QED.

[b]outofbreath[/b], does it matter to you if your new neighbours are from Yorkshire, or Linconshire? Now, does it matter to you if they are from England or Poland? Questioning people's motivation is essential when looking at these things. Why do we not have calls for more controls over people moving within a country, only between them?

IGM, you will find examples on this very thread where I have suggested to individuals that they might want to reconsider their words as the potential to be interpreted as joining the Brexshiteers in excess hyperbole was there. Gentle stamping perhaps, but language still not moderated - not for now at least.

There is time.

(a wee jpke IGM, not that I am suggesting that you are demonstrating other friend's lack of basic comprehension)

OOB - trying to convince racists because calling them racist won't help you win the argument.
The racists have already won the argument. It doesn't matter anymore. Time to be honest with them.

Questioning people's motivation is essential when looking at these things.

How?

Why do we not have calls for more controls over people moving within a country, only between them?

We do. In the last two places I live the common complaint is "They keep forcing the overspill from London on us.".

THM - like it. 😉
I may not agree but I laughed

I have suggested to individuals that they might want to reconsider their words as the potential to be interpreted as xenophobic / racist was there

LOL. So like me you haven't met a European racist for years. What you've done is twisted people's words on the internet to make them look racist.

Glad you laughed - it was meant as a gentle joke. Humour can work better than BS occasionally!

Questioning people's motivation is essential when looking at these things.

How?

Same way you interview somebody, same way you get information you want and assess people. Ask questions, talk, engage see what really drives them, sometimes confronting people - it's great being a white male immigrant really does let you have some shock value when you call out somebody for their behaviour.

You know what I meant, how does guessing a motivation help you win a debate?

It's irrelevant. He already knows his motivation.

All you can do is spell out your case, and point out any factual errors he makes.

I've met people who are open to being persuaded, many are just mislead. Part of understanding what why is understanding what they believe.

does it matter to you if your new neighbours are from Yorkshire, or Linconshire? Now, does it matter to you if they are from England or Poland?

Exactly.

So wanting less immigration is nothing to do with the Country of origin. Yorkshire, Poland, it makes no odds. So if what you say is true, being anti-immigration can't possibly be racist.

The point is Land is a zero sum game. If someone else is using a bit of land[1], you have a bit less of it. It's that simple.

[1] Putting a dwelling on it. Driving a car on it. Mountain biking on it. Whatever.

Part of understanding what why is understanding what they believe.

Calling them racist.

...and you know what. Doesn't this last bit of debate prove my point.

We're spending all this time arguing about whether it's racist to want a lower population in the Uk, but even if we reach agreement you still haven't convinced me that larger population improves my life.

The argument lost the debate for remain, it was a total distraction.

OOB - yes I've met racists. Trust me.

We're spending all this time arguing about whether it's racist to want a lower population in the Uk, but even if we reach agreement you still haven't convinced me that larger population improves my life.

Exactly, if you moved another family into your house, and they paid half the bills, financially you'd be better off, would your quality of life?

OOB - yes I've met racists. Trust me.

Go on then, answer my original question with one of them. Don't be shy.

Exactly, if you moved another family into your house, and they paid half the bills, financially you'd be better off, would your quality of life?

This.

Maybe it is better to live two families to a house, but the way to convince the family of that is not to say "You must just hate the people we're moving in with you" it's to convince them of the benefits. Somehow. 🙂

That's all very well but how do you explain why the New Forest was one of the highest vote leave areas.

They certainly don't like immigrants in the New Forest (from my experience), yet there is zero impact to people in the New Forest. Not exactly overcrowded so the population argument is not relevant and I would guess immigration is some of the lowest in the country.

I could tell you why they don't like immigration but it would involve calling them racist. And yes you can try and debate with them but how many times have you debated with a racist about other races/cultures and how successful was that for you?

Maybe it is better to live two families to a house, but the way to convince the family of that is not to say "You must just hate the people we're moving in with you" it's to convince them of the benefits. Somehow

No, but I'm sure that telling them that if they dare to complain about it they are racist xenophobic scum isn't going to endear them to the concept either 😉

That's all very well but how do you explain why the New Forest was one of the highest vote leave areas.

They certainly don't like immigrants in the New Forest (from my experience), yet there is zero impact to people in the New Forest. Not exactly overcrowded so the population argument is not relevant and I would guess immigration is some of the lowest in the country.

Because they look ten, fifteen miles down the road and say "**** that for a game of soldiers, no thanks"

I don't think anyone is moving into your house.

Still, if that person was a surgeon, and you needed an op, you might mind less.

If your roof was falling in, and that person was a roofer, you might mind less.

The idea that "extra people" just take up room, rather than improving the country, is a popular viewpoint, for sure.

That's all very well but how do you explain why the New Forest was one of the highest vote leave areas.

Because they leave tacks on the road during sportives?

That's all very well but how do you explain why the New Forest was one of the highest vote leave areas.

Have you tried to drive through the New Forest on summers day? Any of the attractions you care to name are heaving. They're building in a big way all along the M27 corridor to the East and that's just the bits I know about. Even on weekdays commuting from Lymington to Sotton is a nightmare.

It's rammed! A pretty poor example of somewhere that is improving with a rising population/

If your roof was falling in, and that person was a roofer, you might mind less.

Although perhaps if you were a roofer too, you might be less happy about it, particularly when you found out that he was willing to do the job for less than you could afford to, because housing benefit was paying his rent.

I don't think anyone is moving into your house.
Still, if that person was a surgeon, and you needed an op, you might mind less.
If your roof was falling in, and that person was a roofer, you might mind less.
The idea that "extra people" just take up room, rather than improving the country, is a popular viewpoint, for sure.

Just an anology, not against immigration whatsoever. But rather just throwing houses up wherever a green/brown site may appear, proper infrastructure needs to be factored in too. The fault of local government/planning I might add, not people wanting to move to a particular area.

because housing benefit was paying his rent.

But rather just throwing houses up wherever a green/brown site may appear, proper infrastructure needs to be factored in too. The fault of local government/planning I might add, not people wanting to move to a particular area.

A little common sense might be returning.

and boom he drops the other BS line.....

My sister in law works in the housing benefit department of Lincolnshire county Council, she'd open your eyes..

because housing benefit was paying his rent.
and boom he drops the other BS line.....

No, an EU worker arriving in the UK would be fully eligible for housing benefit.

Have you tried to drive through the New Forest on summers day?

I have lived in the New Forest for 16 years so have a fair idea of what it is like. It is empty compared to most places, even in summer.

I didn't say it was improving with a rising population. I was saying that the residents have no experience of immigration yet don't like it anyway - with no logical reasons. When discussing immigration with them the upshot is basically they don't like immigrants because they are from another country.

No, an EU worker arriving in the UK would be fully eligible for housing benefit.

The BS is they are all claiming it, that was your point wasn't it otherwise why bring it up?

I didn't say "they are all claiming it" - you were simply wrong, just be a man and admit it.

I was saying that the residents have no experience of immigration yet don't like it anyway - with no logical reasons.

Just far do you think it is from the New Forest to Southampton (where in the 2011 census, 18% of all residents were born abroad)? And therefore on what basis do you begin to assume that the residents have "no experience of immigration" (given even the New Forest census data says 6% of the residents population was born abroad?

particularly when you found out that he was willing to do the job for less than you could afford to, because housing benefit was paying his rent.

Are we ignoring the trend towards complete urbanisation of the UK? Only when we are riding urban downhill as the norm instead of rooty woodland singletrack will we wake up and realise that perpetual year on year uncontrollable population growth of a finite space is not sustainable. Much bigger issue then brexit mind, and riding on rural trails will be the least of our problems.

Are we ignoring the trend towards complete urbanisation of the UK?

I wonder how many folk complain about immigration yet squeeze out multiple children without the merest thought for the strain that puts on the environment, local resources, money etc...

[i]Are we ignoring the trend towards complete urbanisation of the UK? Only when we are riding urban downhill as the norm instead of rooty woodland singletrack will we wake up and realise that perpetual year on year uncontrollable population growth of a finite space is not sustainable. Much bigger issue then brexit mind, and riding on rural trails will be the least of our problems. [/I]

Eh?

Try looking at Google Earth, even places you think are 'urban' have a far greater level of countryside than you can possibly imagine.

So what did you mean? As usual it's a little confusing

I meant what I said, that's why I said it, perhaps you should have read it rather than extrapolating it into something else that you thought I meant? Or perhaps you should apologise after being shown to be wrong?

I wonder how many folk complain about immigration yet squeeze out multiple children without the merest thought for the strain that puts on the environment, local resources, money etc...

Majority of UK population growth is through immigration and extended life rather than birth rates (and its suggested that much of the birth rate is from recent immigrant community too)

edit: The population increase of the UK in the year to mid-2015 included natural growth (more births than deaths) of 171,800 people, net international migration of 335,600. - source: [url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/annualmidyearpopulationestimates/latest ]ONS[/url]

yes you tries to extrapolate that the workers were offering a lower price due to receiving housing benefit. Again you seem to want to make that point, do you have the figures on EU migrants claiming benefit or did you read it in the mail?
Divide and conquer, part of the plan isn't it. It's a great one to trot out isn't it - think it got covered over many pages. What about all those dirty locals on their benefits?

Or, You could just admit that you were wrong

About what? you were trying to make the immigrants and benefits claim again?

if that person was a surgeon, and you needed an op, you might mind less.

If your roof was falling in, and that person was a roofer, you might mind less.

The idea that "extra people" just take up room, rather than improving the country, is a popular viewpoint, for sure.

Isn't that a better argument than name calling?

Try looking at Google Earth, even places you think are 'urban' have a far greater level of countryside than you can possibly imagine.

In which case it's easy to keep everyone happy.

Change the planning process so 5 or more objections to any development or infrastructure veto it.

That way all the building will go on spare needless land that only a handful of people care about.

I wonder how many folk complain about immigration yet squeeze out multiple children without the merest thought for the strain that puts on the environment, local resources, money etc...

Good point but I think a lot of people have guilt about it. I do. The Chinese got it right, we have a lot to thank them for.

It's weird:

You say you want less immigration people think you're Oswold Mosely.
If you dared say you wanted a 1 child policy they'd call you Joseph Mengele.

But you say "We need a plague to wide half of us out and everyone laughs and agrees."

People are mad.

I have lived in the New Forest for 16 years so have a fair idea of what it is like. It is empty compared to most places, even in summer.

Most places? Hong Kong?

I didn't say it was improving with a rising population.

Good because if you had you'd have been wrong.

Are we ignoring the trend towards complete urbanisation of the UK?

+1

It's little things that get me. You build 5000 houses. Many people have dogs. A few of those don't clear up. Where you stick 5000 houses you not only ruin a chunk of nice Rural land but you turn the entire surrounding footpath and bridleway network into a sea of dog s**t to the point you can't ride it at night. Yes, economically the area has become far more valuable. But a nicer place to live?

Ninfan - you true Brexy.

Very careful not to lie, while still being misleading.

There were 697,852 live births in England and Wales in 2015, an increase of 0.4% from 2014.

So almost twice as many births as your immigration figure - which I accept was net, but even immigrants die so using a net figure for indigenous population growth is misleading.

You need four figures to make your point - in, out, births and deaths.

Otherwise you're bullshitting again.

I see where this is going. igm, are you King Herod? 🙂

Certainly not.

But if ninfan et al actually want to address population growth, then instead of banning useful folk we need to work here...

Playful sarcasm mark 😉

By the way there is a good reason I didn't answer your question in the real world. Somethings are painful even when it was for the best.

Otherwise you're bullshitting again.

My quote:

[i]"The population increase of the UK in the year to mid-2015 included natural growth (more births than deaths) of 171,800 people, net international migration of 335,600 "[/I]

Was a [u]direct quote[/u] from section one of the ONS report I linked to

So, unless you are saying that the ONS are manipulating the figures to support Brexit, i suggest you owe me an apology.

Pwned

Nope I said you were being misleading and that you hadn't lied. The quote is correct, but you are using it in a misleading context. You are therefore a bullshitter.

Certainly not.

Shame, I thought you had come up with a workable plan to control uk population based on a sound historical precedent.

How much of that net international migration was from the EU (out of interest).

How much of that net international migration was from the EU (out of interest).

About half IIRC.

Yes, it's about 50:50

However, one of the issues is that the definition applies to anyone coming here for more than 12 months, so captures students as well as people coming to work, therefore with massively different effects workforce etc.

[img] [/img]

That's a bit better ninfan.

By the way, how many on here regard themselves as immmigrants/emigrants/economic migrants?

I'm an economic migrant possibly an immigrant to Yorkshire.
Finished university and headed off with a suit cas in each hand, rucksack on my back and daysac on my front. Needed the job.

I have lived in the New Forest for 16 years so have a fair idea of what it is like. It is empty compared to most places, even in summer.

Most places? Hong Kong?

I didn't say it was improving with a rising population.

Good because if you had you'd have been wrong.

Yes, of course I was referring to Hong Kong and wouldn't be referring to other places in the UK.

And although I didn't say it was improving, I also didn't say it was getting worse - I made no comment on that as I don't know.
What data are you using to determine that it is getting worse and how much has the population actually increased over the last 10 years?

(You are free to say you just made it all up)

I wonder in all this whether anyone has taken into account the probable influx of mainly elderly ex pats who are already starting to return to the UK from their previously comfortable retirements on the Cost Del Whatever? Looks very much like we will be swapping healthy working age contributors to the economy for less healthy persons with a much higher call on the welfare state.... I wonder what that will do for places to live?

All anecdotal, but I'm a regular visitor.

"By the way, how many on here regard themselves as immmigrants/emigrants/economic migrants?"

I'm also a migrant.

Me too, but only for another 8 weeks.

I still haven't had an answer to my question. "Why and how is brexit a good idea?"
It appears neither has parliament.
I am on the fence, neutral even. I would just like to understand it?

Honest answer, ignoring the filth flying around (some of which I may have flung) -

Size of EU trading zone -v- Speed at which the UK might be able to set up UK-centric trade deals

Sovereignty -v- the stability that the EU (plus ECHR and NATO) have brought to Europe

Immigration of others -v- your right to emigrate (Auf Wiedersehen, Pet style)

Finally, club subs -v- benefits of being part of the club

There are a whole load of subsidiary issues, but where you lie on these issues pretty much leads to what you end up thinking.

For me, I don't really value sovereignty and immigration keeps my company going. And I like not having had a war with Germany or France for 70 years as opposed to the once every 30. On trade, I think we punch above our weight as a country but not as far as people think.

People will disagree on the answers, but I think those are the questions.

Why and how is brexit a good idea

Depends what your thoughts on deeper integration into Europe is?