Buisness are not "them" they are "us", unless you work in the public sector.
Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves, businesses do not exist for the benefit of ordinary working folk, they use them abuse them screw their pensions, pay them the absolute minimum they can get away with whilst milking them at every opportunity for every last penny they own.
Right on comrade! 😆
[quote="rosscore"]The Trade argument will easily be resolved it always has been and always will be
Is this meant to be ironic?
Trade deals take many years to work out and according to the tory governments own figures we will need to increase our trade with the ten nations outside the EU we most trade with by 37% to simply stand still in terms of exports
Now I'm really confused, I hadn't realised we'd voted to leave NATO
Also our closed door on refugees is the EUs fault despite most EU nations especially germany taking in millions of refugees? Remember we created the refugees with our warmongering in the middle east along with our partners in crime the US.
Hello! earth to Rosscore....... are you receiving me.....
Who would have thought just five years ago, we as a nation with a history of providing help and refuge from war, would have voted for a closed door policy? That vote is purely as a result of having a megalomaniacal neighbour, hell bent on expansion without a single consideration for the consequences.The very actions of the EU have forced this backlash upon us.
And I was thinking it had something to do with the War going on in the middle east not started by the EU, and expansion through countries [b]WANTING[/b] to join the EU.
Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves, businesses do not exist for the benefit of ordinary working folk, they use them abuse them screw their pensions, pay them the absolute minimum they can get away with whilst milking them at every opportunity for every last penny they own.
Leaving the EU is not going to solve that. You people seem to think some sort of Utopia for the workers is going to magically spring up post brexit, quite the opposite will happen.
It never ceases to amaze me that people think that globalisation and all it brings is somehow going to be held off by plucky little Britain leaving the EU.
kelvin - Member
So, without the EU expanding past the Berlin Wall, Europe would be safer from an ever threatening Russia?You really think that?
I already said it a while back, they should have stopped at Poland/and the Czech/Slovak republics, the destabilisation of Ukraine by in essence the Corporate US is what has woken Russia from her slumbers, that and the 'theft' of their former satellite states of the USSR, Bulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia etc.
Yes I most definitely believe that.
Who would have thought just five years ago, we as a nation with a history of providing help and refuge from war, would have voted for a closed door policy? That vote is purely as a result of having a megalomaniacal neighbour, hell bent on expansion without a single consideration for the consequences.
load of bollox
try this...
An internal dispute in the Tory party spilled over into the political mainstream, the resentment generated by 6 years of the largest ever cuts seen to our society meant that the country became fertile ground for lowest common denominator gutter press, racist demagogues and self serving politicians to feed their own egos and irreparably damage the country, narrowly winning a referendum.
The winning side having told some of the most outrageous lies in modern political history.
OK with that incredibly naive couple of sentences, I shall bite even though I know I'm being trolled here.
Cannot wait as its off to an excellently insightful and intelligent start
Bye Bye Graham
Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves
I dunno about you but I, like most people work for a business. I'm not talking about 'rich fat cat business [i]people[/i]' I'm talking about the companies we work for. You appear to be confusing the two things.
I want a job. And I don't mean fruit picking.
The Trade argument will easily be resolved it always has been and always will be
What makes you say that? I'm sceptical, I'm going to need convincing.
An internal dispute in the Tory party spilled over into the political mainstream, the resentment generated by 6 years of the largest ever cuts seen to our society meant that the country became fertile ground for lowest common denominator gutter press, racist demagogues and self serving politicians to feed their own egos and irreparably damage the country, narrowly winning a referendum, the winning side have told some of the most outrageous lies in modern political history.
+100.
Yes I most definitely believe that.
Where do you stand on the moon landings and the twin towers collapse?
Leaving the EU is not going to solve that. You people seem to think some sort of Utopia for the workers is going to magically spring up post brexit, quite the opposite will happen.It never ceases to amaze me that people think that globalisation and all it brings is somehow going to be held off by plucky little Britain leaving the EU.
No and I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that, but it had to stop. There is never going to be a Utopia in or out of Europe, this was just a wake up call to the idiots running the show, that not everybody for a host of very different reasons wanted it to continue the way it was headed and now it is all change and yes we all know/knew it would be difficult, but it had to be this way, sorry if you're not that happy about it, but in the long run I'm fairly sure it'll sort itself out right side up eventually as long as the damned yanks don't put their x's in the wrong box.
Still not seeing anything that indicates you fully understand the situation rosscore. Just a lot of empty phrases. Including what amounts to "It'll be fine".
Good skills.
what had to stop ?
sorry if you're not that happy about it, but in the long run I'm fairly sure it'll sort itself out
In the long run, I'll be dead, so unable to appreciate this nirvana you're promising me.
sorry if you're not that happy about it, but in the long run I'm fairly sure it'll sort itself out right side up eventually
I'm sure we will all be laughing about it in ten years time, drinking tea, and eating all that cake that we didn't manage to export to the World. 🙄
Actually no, sod the Socratic method.
Rosscore - you are making, and have made an emotive judgement, not an objective one. You've chosen on sentiment and not evidence.
When it comes to people's livelihoods this is A BAD THING. I do not share your sentiment, I should not have to suffer its consequences.
And that's just the economics. Never mind the rights you've stripped away FROM ME and worse still MY KIDS.
****ing angry.
I'm sure we will all be laughing about it in ten years time, drinking tea, and eating all that cake that we didn't manage to export to the World.
and the jam, don't forget the jam
I dunno about you but I, like most people work for a business. I'm not talking about 'rich fat cat business people' I'm talking about the companies we work for. You appear to be confusing the two things.
I run a little business it used to be a little bigger business but it got steam rollered due to an ill considered attempt to centralise in Europe, 22 folk lost their jobs and twenty years of effort went up the pictures, but that's just the way things are.
When I first went to work there were 400 folk working in the Printing works that I served my apprenticeship at, there were jobs for stone hands, compositors, hot and cold metal typographers, linotype operators, there were union closed shops, the NUJ, NGA, NATSOPA SOGAT demarkation disputes and the managerial types would have you believe it was the unions that did for us, it wasn't, it was the computer.
Fact is the computer has done for loads of businesses, it did for my first print business where 38 folk had to be laid off by me on Christmas frisking eve in 1990 precisely because we had been so efficient at introducing direct entry computerisation to EMAP and our contract got curtailed a year early.
The moral of all this, shit happens, times change we have to deal with it and move on, think of something else.
Nothing is certain, nothing is forever, the key now plan ahead, property in Eire is going to go through the roof again, in the short term they are almost certainly going to be the winners in the next two years if nothing dramatic happens to the EU and I'm fairly sure something dramatic will happen, I'm not sure they are going to be able to just carry on as if nothing has happened either.
but it got steam rollered due to an ill considered attempt to centralise in Europe
Ah so that's the source of your antipathy.
Well please don't steamroller all the rest of our jobs out of spite, ok?
Fact is the computer has done for loads of businesses
And yet, we are still mostly employed. Computers have created as many jobs as they destroyed. Leaving the EU is not going to do the same thing, because all the other countries with businesses against whom we compete all still have the advantage of being in a large economy.
What you've said is equivalent to me coming into your house, smashing all the crockery and saying 'shit happens, move on'.
Explain how the EU led to the demise of your business?
In the war museum there is a picture of a bridge in Bulgaria.
The photo was taken by one of our spies who risked who knows what to take it and smuggle it back to britain.
Today I can freely visit that bridge, I can move to the town nearest to it, I can get a job there.
That is my freedom. I can go and live in the forests of Poland, I can live in the alps, I can live in a shack on a Greek island ,I can go and live in the Artic Circle and get a job as father christmas.
Why put up barriers,why build walls?
And yet, we are still mostly employed.
And that's what it'll be in the future. When change comes we adapt.
molgrips - Member
but it got steam rollered due to an ill considered attempt to centralise in Europe
Ah so that's the source of your antipathy.Well please don't steamroller all the rest of our jobs out of spite, ok?
Well yes and no, we've had this conversation a while back in this thread and I did explain my thinking was very broad based, if we were in a bar somewhere and I could explain to you the intricacies of dealing with the EU and the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK, it might also help you understand that part of my reasoning. But no, I also have children, my daughter is living with a GermanAlbanian, working in Amsterdam, another of my daughters is betrothed to an Indian working here in London, I have another working in Oman, so we had quite lively discussions in the run up to the vote.
I swear to you I, we haven't broken your crockery, or tried to steam roller you out of jobs, out of spite.I remember now you telling me of your businesses funding issues and I truly hope they work out, I'm sure they will unless the bastards try a Brexit excuse to cutback for other reasons like so many other chancers are right now.
But I, we, have to be positive, it is the only way and swerve with the pitch and roll of it all. I'm already looking for another job with a UK manufacturer with the hop I can use all my external contacts to export to and trust me whoever it was back there worrying about trade deals, if we came up with that machine that turned lead into gold, they would sure as hell find a way to buy it regardless of who sets the trade tariffs.
if we were in a bar somewhere and I could explain to you the intricacies of dealing with the EU and the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK, it might also help you understand that part of my reasoning.
Well not much point as it's about to get a lot worse...
But I, we, have to be positive, it is the only way and swerve with the pitch and roll of it all.........
if we came up with that machine that turned lead into gold
We do its called the national lottery
We do, 5e, yes. However - when computers and machines and such were invented, we adapted with higher skill jobs with better prospects to do more creative inventive things.
If our economy slides for a long time we might end up regressing instead of progressing. My Dad, his dad, and who knows how many male ancestors worked in coal mines. I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Basel delivering consultancy and development to a global company. This is better than manual labour in a dark hole all day. And I'm not any cleverer than my ancestors.
if we were in a bar somewhere and I could explain to you the intricacies of dealing with the EU and the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK, it might also help you understand that part of my reasoning.
Why does it need a bar? I'd love to hear the argument, genuinely. If nothing else so I could feel positive about something in all this mess instead of depressed.
The EU let me spend 18 months working in Finland, which was profoundly beautiful. Spending each weekend zipping through the boreal forest in snow, moonlight, bedtime sunshine, it was tremendous, and an experience I'd never have had otherwise. All I had to do was answer a job advert. And I made some proper good friends too.
This is immensely valuable to me. And you've taken it away. So understand my negativity.
Basel is in Switzerland, they are not in the EU, have any trouble getting in there?
The is a company out there exactly like my old one, it benefited tremendously from the marketing I delivered, for the products we both sold, they are still there prospering, precisely because they were not in the EU, am I bitter? Probably a little bit, the fact I'm still mentioning it. but whatever that bit of your work shouldn't change should it?
tjagain - Member
Also our closed door on refugees is the EUs fault despite most EU nations especially germany taking in millions of refugees? Remember we created the refugees with our warmongering in the middle east along with our partners in crime the US.Hello! earth to Rosscore....... are you receiving me.....
No, I never was on your wavelength but I gather you've been away, welcome back, was it Pentonville?
the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK
We joined the EU in 1973. Back then we were the 6th largest economy in the world. We are now the 5th (and we were the 4th for a while). If the deck was stacked against us then wouldn't things have got worse rather than better?
[img] 
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[url= http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GB ]sauce[/url]
Basel is in Switzerland, they are not in the EU, have any trouble getting in there?
Yes. I'm doing work for the Swiss branch of the same company, so it should be the easiest thing. However even then I'm only allowed to do 8 days of work in the country without obtaining a work permit. We need at least 20 days to do the immediate part of the job. If I have to stay longer than something like 30 days I think a business visa is required, and (as explained to me so I'm not sure I got it correctly) that means that a portion of my income has to be taxed in Switzerland.. which means that my company has to reimburse me for it somehow.. not sure about the details or if my colleagues were out of pocket directly. Same applied in reverse to my Swiss colleague as he spent some time outside of Switzerland, apparently it takes years to sort out.
Also done assignments in Germany - hardest thing I had to do there was talk to the Taxi drivers in German. In Sweden the hardest thing was riding my bike in the snow after work.
Basel is in Switzerland, they are not in the EU, have any trouble getting in there?
Switzerland, like Norway, is part of the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association ]EFTA[/url] which accepts EU rules, accepts freedom of movement, pays into the EU budget, but doesn't get a vote in the EU.
Is that the deal you want for the UK?
. I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Basel delivering consultancy and development to a global company.
Metropolitan elite then?
Bet it's not as glamorous as it sound BnD
I wager he lives in some backwater like Cardiff
Metropolitan elite then?
Er I dunno. I live in Cardiff, is that a metropolis?
rosscore - Member
kelvin - Member
So, without the EU expanding past the Berlin Wall, Europe would be safer from an ever threatening Russia?
You really think that?I already said it a while back, they should have stopped at Poland/and the Czech/Slovak republics, the destabilisation of Ukraine by in essence the Corporate US is what has woken Russia from her slumbers, that and the 'theft' of their former satellite states of the USSR, Bulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia etc.
Yes I most definitely believe that.
Well, it seems Jamba and chewkw have some catching up to do if they want to beat this lunacy 😯
[quote=molgrips ]Metropolitan elite then?
Er I dunno. I live in Cardiff, is that a metropolis?
You do have a Superman costume - right?
Switzerland, like Norway, is part of the EFTA which accepts EU rules, accepts freedom of movement, pays into the EU budget, but doesn't get an vote in the EU.
Except they don't like freedom of movement
You do have a Superman costume - right?
CAPTAIN AMERICA
FFS
I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Basel delivering consultancy and development to a global company. This is better than manual labour in a dark hole all day. And I'm not any cleverer than my ancestors.
I doubt you'll notice any difference. Maybe you'll be sat in a hotel in Canada or India. Airports and hotels all look the same.
No BnD they don't - and their negotiations with the EU over that are going really well aren't they?
Airports and hotels all look the same.
Yes but they are all better than coal mines. As is the rest of the job.
Yes but they are all better than coal mines. As is the rest of the job.
Very true. You can blame Thatcher for that. 😉
but I gather you've been away, welcome back, was it [s]Pentonville[/s] [b]Strangeways[/b]?
More apt 😉
