[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

kelvin - same understanding. May said FoM was definitely out, Merkel said no cherry-picking.

I see the Govt loses Brexit Vote appeal on A50. Crikey. What a pain. 😯
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38723261 ]BBC news[/url]

Bet those reminders are now quietly confident they are turning the outcome of the referendum their way by preventing a Brexit. 😯

I wonder what will happen if the parliament vote to remain due to remainders putting pressure on the MPs to vote against Brexit to remain in EU. Of course that should be fun to see.

Does that mean the Govt will call for a new General Election?

Does that mean this time we will actually see the actual rise of UKIP especially in the North East?

Thersa has a very clear mandate for her current course of action.

You agree with her course of action… but that is only a mandate from you.
No supporting vote has been made on her "plans", or her particular red lines and approach to leaving the EU, by the public, by MPs… by anyone.

Seeing as there was no plan before the vote adn still no plannow then its clear we didn't vote for a particular solution - and all the shouty louder leavers were saying we could stay in the single market while stopping freedom of movement - an obvious piece of nonsense to the non deluded.

Referendum showed quite clearly we wanted no FOM and no ECJ, hence no EEA.

How? Really, how? That's going to need a lot of explaining.

relax, these are the details,that we are about to negotiate. It will take time and there will be a compromise. It will be worse than before - tant pis - but we know that. But it's in no one's interests for it to be a disaster.
W
The rest is noise. Nothing more.se

Mol, have you been away for a while?

But it's in no one's interests for it to be a disaster.

Agreed, May is taking us on a path to disaster.

The rest is noise.

It is how we leave, and the new relationship, that matter: this is not noise.

If you say so.

Given that we basically only know that (1) she wants a bespoke deal and (2) what she wants can't be delivered, it seems somewhat premature to jump to your conclusion. But carry on...

"That" isn't correct. That's why we need to start negotiating the details. The crap today is the noise.

So what's the count of voting yes and no through parliament on this brexit bill?

I'm not holding out for a reversal btw, just curious on the numbers of likely voting.

Conservative 329 yes, vote it through? (any tory rebels? there' would need to be around 30 or so if labour got their act together, tbh I can't think of a better way for labour to send the tories into complete disarray and force a general election, dunno if they'll have the smarts to see that though...)
Labour 229, ?
Scottish National Party 54, no
Liberal Democrat 9, no
Democratic Unionist Party 8, yes
Independent 4, ? dunno
Sinn Fein 4, n/a
Plaid Cymru 3, no?
Social Democratic & Labour Party 3, ? dunno
Ulster Unionist Party 2, ? dunno
Green Party 1, no
Speaker 1, no vote.
UK Independence Party 1, yes
Vacant 2

tbh treeza should be glad the judges went against her today, as when we become an american protectorate, least she can point the finger at someone else!! 😆

Oh hello chewkw, just got up?

I see IDS is being his usual charming self too.

The decision to leave will not be reversed.

mitsumonkey - Member
The decision to leave will not be reversed.

seosamh77

IIRC there are about 100 mps who declared themselves for OUT. The rest are for IN.

WTF is going to be achieved by having this table debate the issues

tjagain - Member
seosamh77

IIRC there are about 100 mps who declared themselves for OUT. The rest are for IN.

ta, thought there'd have been a bit more. Labour are just being stupid imo.

I wonder if there have been any other referenda that have forced people to abandon life plans?

Labour have a real issue. the lefties always disliked Europe as a bastion of the free market. They also fear their votes going UKIP in the northern English towns hence numpties like Burns playing the race card. I think they should be selling the benefits of the EU ie leading opinion not following the lowest common denominator but to too many of them thats the Blair lesson - follow the lead of the daily wail to win power

molgrips - Member
I wonder if there have been any other referenda that have forced people to abandon life plans?

That has been confirmed already.

The Toires and Labour will have a handful of rebels. The LDs will make their point of protest. The bill will be passed.

Tried to understand Jezza's tweets but with little joy so far....

Not difficult to see why the Daily Mail readership hate Gina Miller so much.

Because she is female and has challenged their twisted bitter world view?

That and a couple of other things, one being her being pretty articulate and the other the colour of her skin.

dannyh - I think we may both be right 🙂
It'll be interesting to see the mail headlines tomorrow - will they vilify Miller or the evil judges?

It'll be interesting to see the mail headlines tomorrow - will they vilify Miller or the evil judges?

Perhaps we should cut Jezza some slack, chukka is as bad on Ch 4 news now

I just know you lot have been arguing since the decision earlier this morning. I see it as a vote for reason and accountability, common sense and justice.

Obvz, the Brexiteers won't understand such things, so here's something to keep them occupied, something they'll understand.

[img] [/img]

It must be hell for you outies that you will never be able to moan about any of your bills going up or when your mortgage rockets as its the price you are prepared to pay for freedom.
Just how much are you prepared to pay for a litre (sorry 0.22 of a gallon) of petrol?
Yeah I know it's a global conspiracy against us of everyone raising their prices at the same time.

Approx 80 MPs have indicated they will vote against so Government will have no trouble winning the motion.

After BBC's analcyst they now have Brexit and La La Land next to each other on their news home page. 😀

One thing I have struggled with ever since the vote is how the very first handshake of the negotiations with the EU will go.

Anyone with any sense of self would have to start with "Well, I'm really sorry about all this ****ing mess".

How on earth are we going to find someone who is both a capable and honest negotiator as well as being able to keep a straight face as they pretend this is anything but an act of national self-harm?

Still, it's happening, so I'll have to get used to it - everything becoming more expensive, jobs disappearing, remaining jobs becoming less secure and less well paid. Can't wait.

what do you mean life plans?

Plans to live abroad, you know.

In reality, they have been going on ever since the vote. We are treated to the public show. The real stuff happens well away from the gaze of the great unwashed. That is at least on the big questions.

On the gory details, no one round the table is going to complain, They're getting paid for it and unlike Brexshiteers they are not Turkeys and it's not December.

Now I know what it feels like to be a Scouser.
An untameable hatred of The Conservative party. I've always hated them but now it's been ratcheted up to a level even I'm surprised at.
I can't wait for our yearly visit of our local mp and the photographers from the evening standard. I shall take great pleasure tearing him a new arsehole and banning him from my shop.

What happens when the Labour Party come round, Like the Gov they were for remain largely, albeit half-heartedly. The only difference is one is having to execute the decision and one doesn't know how to respond.

Which is "more at fault"?t

Re numbers, and whips. Lets not forget: we've also got the House of Lords:

Last year, the HoL's Constitution Committee said:

"there is nothing in Article 50 formally to prevent a Member State from reversing its decision to withdraw in the course of the withdrawal negotiations”.

As I understand it, today's judgment demands that the Lords also approve the bill.

My goodness did IDS really say this

How the fk did he get to be an MP? !?

a great advert for brexies 😯

[img] [/img]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/every-sentence-iain-duncan-smiths-article-50-statement-provably-false/

yeah, brexits gonna work out just fine with people this monumentally stupid running the show

🙄

1. Every sentence of this is provably false. It is Trump-like in its audacity.

2. There’s no issue about who is supreme between Parliament and Supreme Court. It’s Parliament. That is basic constitutional law.

3. The Supreme Court is not self-appointed. It was established by Parliament by section 23 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005.

4. There is nothing intriguing about dissenting opinions in Supreme Court (or House of Lords as was) judgments. Very common. —

5. The Court expressly did not tell Parliament how to run its business. It clarified what the govt could not do unilaterally.

6. There is no new territory. Not even something that looks a little bit like new territory. As the judgment makes plain.

7. As IDS repeats his inarticulate point, I’ll repeat my rebuttal: Parliament has not been told what to do. Not in the slightest.

8. The only “real constitutional issues” are those arising in IDS’ own imagination, born of his own unstymied ignorance and base stupidity.

That is incredible.

He's just playing to a crowd, the court ruled parliament has have a vote, as per our established democratic system...beggars belief really but the brexos and nazis will lap it up and he knows it.

mattyfez - Member
He's just playing to a crowd, the court ruled parliament has have a vote, as per our established democratic system...beggars belief really but the brexos will lap it up.

agreed

Its just depressing that this is the level of 'debate'

Now you have the law court trying to run the country.

They are not even elected by the people but will defend their rights to rule. 😆

The question is who run the country? The court or the government?

The question is who run the country?

That's the question that Gina Miller asked, and the answer is Parliament, as it has been for hundreds of years.

The question is who run the country? The court or the government?

@thm and Jamby there is a lot of useful stuff that can and should be in the bill. None of it will impact on negotiations like
Not using current residents as political pieces by giving them a path to permanent residence (a simple one)
A 10 year funding plan for farmers to give certainty going forward
Costed investigations on key areas
A 10 year costed and guaranteed minimum for scientific research to allow that to transition
A legal guarantee on membership of echr etc as nobody voted to leave these
Gaurntee of workers, h&s and environmental legislation to be kept as is for a reasonable period of time (ie post next ge) so that parties can declare a position on that which can be put to the public.
A fully costed and independent assessment of the UK payments to the eu at present and the cost of various obligations
A full costing of the delivery cost form brexit and its options
And borris to pay 350 million per week into the nhs.
Parliament must demand this sort of stuff

No you can't cherry pick a few issues that you might consider (rightly or wrongly) critical

The Bill is simply about triggering A50. The SC ruling about a technicality about how this should be done ie. That's it.

One more time - this is a negotiation

jambalaya - Member
Crystal clear if you where paying attention to the debate Scot. Remember Remain "threatened" us that a Leave vote was a vote to leave the Single Market. We responded YES PLEASE.

On that basis the £350m a week has to go into the NHS. It has the same validity, doesn't it Jamba? Something one side said in the heat of a campaign that got voted for?
Glad we agree.

He's just playing to a crowd, the court ruled parliament has have a vote, as per our established democratic system...beggars belief really but the brexos and nazis will lap it up and he knows it.

No point in changing a winning strategy. It's an insult to our collective intelligence in reality, but as a collective we no longer even seem to be able to see when we are having the piss taken. I'm surprised at myself for still finding this remarkable after the last six months.

Jamba - what are you going to do about the fact the european declaration on human rights and recourse to its court is enshrined in the Scotland act - and that cannot be changed without holyroods consent?

The Bill is simply about triggering A50. The SC ruling about a technicality about how this should be done ie. That's it.

One more time - this is a negotiation

So Mike do you exact the bill to say, this Bill is designed to make the people and this country worse off......?

What are you arguing about,

People can be sick of lots of things. - democracy? - we have just had two referendums for Scotland and Brexshit. What some are sick of is having to accept the result when they don't win. That's just being sick of losing

Nope THM. I objected to the referendum from the moment it was announced. Possibly from when it was suggested. It's not how Britain does democracy.

I'm saying the government an give commitment and reassurance that post brexit they will not be doing some stuff until at least post the next ge (echr, most of the bundled up great repeal expunging of regulations etc)
Legally deal with the current eu residents so they are not bargaining chips
Provide detailed costings

How is that unreasonable?
Otherwise Parliament is about to give an unreasonable amount of authority to a tiny group with no formal oversight.

Perhaps a commitment that part of the negotiating team involves the first ministers or representatives of the devolved parliaments, the official opposition and even the lib dems.

So Mike do you exact the bill to say, this Bill is designed to make the people and this country worse off

The government went as far as a vision for asking about leaving. That is it.

We better not have another one of Scotland then - real or Nicola's latest pretend version.

I agree about referendums largely as we can see (^) people don't understand the issues. But hey, THAT IS how democracy works in the UK.

good job the last one was advisory then 😉

You are still forgetting that some of these things are not in our control. I may have mentioned this before, it's a negotiation in which we have the weak hand.

The SC have ruled in the role of the devolved assemblies. Nicola has to come to terms with a 9:0 vote is bigger than the independence defeat.

THM - I'm still going to disagree. We have a representative democracy precisely because people don't understand the issues - so they elect someone who (hopefully) does to represent them. Problem recently is that MPs have spent too much time representing their whips and party leaders not their constituents. I blame Thatcher and Blair.

Did you know that my predictive text tries to put "that her" in instead of "Thatcher"? I'll let you draw your own conclusions (but Blair goes straight in).

Sturgeon's just whipping up enough dissent until she has shot at Indy 2.
I didn't approve of Indy 1, but I can understand why people want to do Indy 2.
I hope that we don't dissolve into endless divisive referenda.

Your blame is misplaced but never mind

So tell me then, let's take this further and you want representation. Do you want each MP to lay out his/her/zees red lines so that we can have the fun of watching them debating it? How do you imagine that working.

Camels, horses and committees spring to mind.

She is ignoring reality for her own ends - where do you think the Brexshiteers got their inspiration from?

teamhurtmore - Member
You are still forgetting that some of these things are not in our control. I may have mentioned this before, it's a negotiation in which we have the weak hand.

The SC have ruled in the role of the devolved assemblies. Nicola has to come to terms with a 9:0 vote is bigger than the independence defeat.

That also includes a massive red line on many of the potential post Brexit bills to be held after a general election.

If not it simply smacks of desperation to start, complete and push through as much legislation as possible using a 3 line whip before the public have had a chance to see what is going on - all on issues they were not presented with, seen arguments on etc.

It's a democracy, as I have no MP at the moment I will be writing to the leaders of the 4 main parties in westminster to raise my views, I suggest people also write to their MP and others to make sure this issue is at the very least seriously debated.

molgrips - Member

The question is who run the country?

That's the question that Gina Miller asked, and the answer is Parliament, as it has been for hundreds of years.

captainsasquatch - Member
Govt sets the laws and judiciary ensures that they're adhered to.

At the moment, the people tell the govt they want out. They govt is complying but before the can change the law and move ahead, someone just jumps in front of the queue to mess with the people in the name of law. Something is fishy here ... 😛

Remind me Mike, which entities are negotiating this?

Cleggis now saying that the British people must have a say on all the details. What planet does he live on??

Perhaps a commitment that part of the negotiating team involves the first ministers or representatives of the devolved parliaments, the official opposition and even the lib dems.

You are kidding me, how the hell would that ever work. For instance Labour can't make up their mind and the leader of the Welsh assembly isn't even on the side of his own people!

Only people who can agree on a position is the SNP and that's because their party is a dictatorship.

As fun/interesting as the debate may be, the di are cast. This isn't going to stop despite all the spoiling tactics

Amusing to see Blunkett raising/questioning the prospect of an unelected second chamber overturning the result of a democratic vote.

kimbers - Member

a great advert for brexies

That is exactly why todays result was important, it establishes the conventions which need to be followed, the PM is answerable to parliament, and parliament is answerable to the courts. As it should be. The latter was never in danger, but allowing the PM to unilaterally do something as big as Brexit would have set a dangerous precedent imo.

Was the igm Freudian THM?
EDIT: stealth edit

Now more seriously. Blaming T&B? Tongue in cheek. One or other normally gets the blame even when they had nothing to do with it. So I blamed both.

Do you want each MP to lay out his/her/zees red lines so that we can have the fun of watching them debating it?

Remind me Mike, which entities are negotiating this?

It sounds like you think giving the 3 amigos all the cards and chips is a great idea as they represent Dave from Sunderland so well and his issues finding work due to chronic government neglect of his region.

You are kidding me, how the hell would that ever work. For instance Labour can't make up their mind and the leader of the Welsh assembly isn't even on the side of his own people!

The current Brexit delivery is being run like a dictatorship, MP's having no say, no debate, no conditions, no rules, no budget, no success criteria and no word on what the UK plans to do.

It was today that business leaders were asked to appear before a select committee to detail their thoughts an share the research they had completed - how can you start a process if you have only just started looking up the information needed to make an informed decision.

In any project those looking to drive as fast as they can down a one way street need some checks and balances, the project never works

codybrennan - Member

As I understand it, today's judgment demands that the Lords also approve the bill.

Yes 😉 We are obviously debating too much as Apple trying to predict what I am saying!

Amusing after your earlier comment.....

Which entities Mike? Don't do a jambas on me....

because it is the result of a referendum

Leaving is, yes.

But what do we do after we leave is the subject of much debate. That's the debate we need to have, and we now will have.

Why, we don't know the terms under which we will be leaving? that's just an excuse for more hot air mol

mikewsmith - Member

A legal guarantee on membership of echr etc as nobody voted to leave these

I think they actually did, was in the tory manifesto for the GE, was it not?

For instance Labour can't make up their mind and the leader of the Welsh assembly isn't even on the side of his own people!

So, Corbyn is rubbish for following the will of his 'people', and Jones is rubbish for not listening to it.

🙄

Now you have the law court trying to run the country [/quote

???

 

Which entities Mike? Don't do a jambas on me....

Why, we don't know the terms under which we will be leaving?

and back to point 1.
this is a deeply divisive issue that splits the government and the opposition along with the country along lines we have not seen in over a generation I think. To push on with a single (well is there at least one vision or is it still a drunken haze) vision for the whole nation from one party will have lasting and deep repercussions for the society that is formed post Brexit.
If it's truly about taking Britain forward that is a job for all

Thank you - but I would prefer apples and apples ie, the U.K. and the EU

None, the BIll should simply state that we are going to/want to trigger A50 so that we can get on with negotiating ALL the issues. We don't have a single view - you really are doing a jambas in me now - we are arguing for a bespoke deal with various terms up for negotiation.

If you are going to make things up, don't expect an answer.

P.s. It's a negotiation

Cleggis now saying that the British people must have a say on all the details. What planet does he live on??

Papers saying Bill announced Friday and vote Tuesday or Wednesday. Tories have the majority on their own without the nearly 200 Labour MPs who will vote for it. Will pass by a landslide.

@mike this Bill will have none of those things. Your list can be addressed at the 2020 GE when the Govt of the day will be free to run the country as it sees fit.

Jamba - what are you going to do about the fact the european declaration on human rights and recourse to its court is enshrined in the Scotland act - and that cannot be changed without holyroods consent?

Not really mine or indeed Westminster's problem. Scots can defer to that if they wish, it just won't apply anywhere else. Scotland has many different laws and procedures that don't apply in the rest of the UK. We'll have our Human Rights Bill thanks very much

In other news I see Schwable will run against Merkel in the German elections.

Or a big tent?

A table for Michel Bariner and his team and a space for any UK citizens who want to get involved. Why wouldn't this work?

salmon BSing on Newsnight now

None, the BIll should simply state that we are going to/want to trigger A50 so that we can get on with negotiating ALL the issues. We don't have a single view - you really are doing a jambas in me now - we are arguing for a bespoke deal with various terms up for negotiation.

If you are going to make things up, don't expect an answer.

P.s. It's a negotiation

And the final point still stands, at this point a tory lead Brexit will most likely rip the country apart, push the Scottish question back into the foreground and alienate a lot of people. Is that worth it or is it sometimes better to put the ideology away and do what is best for the country.
At this point TM has been desperate to keep brexit away from any kind of formal scrutiny. that has to change, if she wants the consent of parliament she needs to actually work for it.

edit

@mike this Bill will have none of those things. Your list can be addressed at the 2020 GE when the Govt of the day will be free to run the country as it sees fit.

Only people who can agree on a position is the SNP and that's because their party is a dictatorship.

Well I am glad you cleared that up I thought it had something to do with representing the views of 62% of Scots in a FPTP system.