[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

All the Leavers are happy to exchange a short term bump in the road economically to get the benefits of a more globally focused economy. We will be much better off out imo.

All the leavers Jamba?

Have you checked with all of them?

And by short term I assume you mean the rest of their lives? (Although on average this is potentially a shorter period of time than the rest of a remainer's life 😉 )

After meeting the business leaders at the White House, Mr Trump pledged to lower corporate taxes to 15% or 20%, from the current 35%, and slash regulations by up to 75% if they keep jobs in the US.

So presumably when we have our FTD with the US we have to correspond by equally slashing equivalent regulations here (whatever those regulations may be) so an equal playing field is established.

All the Leavers are happy to exchange a short term bump in the road economically

I know some that are (who are well to do pensioners).
I know some that aren't (people struggling week to week, with teenagers entering the job market in a few years).

Quit with this "all" …

to get the benefits of a more globally focused economy.

This again. We can increase our trade with non EU countries from within EU… see Germany.
Tearing up all our existing trade deals, and reducing our trade with EU countries, may well change who we trade with, but it's a pretty self defeating way to try and increase how much we trade as a whole.

[i]All the Leavers are happy to exchange a short term bump in the road economically to get the benefits of a more globally focused economy[/I]

If you look back, Jamba has mention 10 years as a possible period for this 'short-term', as in he (and I) will be retired by then - although if we've a 10 year downturn it may mean I for one won't be retired by then...

b r - given voting patterns split by age I might be closer with my "rest of their lives" suggestion for a good number of Brexies.

Bit dark that. Hey ho.

All the Leavers are happy to exchange a short term bump in the road economically to get the benefits of a more globally focused economy.

All the leavers I know personally couldn't give a toss about the economy (being adequately rich pensioners) but wanted both to stick two fingers up to Germany and to have fewer immigrants - though they barely see any anyway, where they live. I'm sure they will convince themselves they did the right thing irrespctive of the long-term outcome (which they probably won't live to see anyway).

Img - you are not correct about Wales. Don't confuse what two parties talked about today with how the Welsh voted.

The more global outlook argument should be taken with a pinch of salt. We already trade with much of the globe and have Free Trade Agreements with 90% of the economies that we trade with. Much of this has been facilitated not hindered by membership of the EU, including trade with C'wealth countries. Just more Brexshit BS.

Sounds good but doesn't stand up to scrutiny

THM - don't spoil my fun. I know, but I'm enjoying stirring.

On the other hand is it not a white paper by the Welsh Assembly leader and therefore has as much validity in Wales as Theresa's pronouncements in the Westminster? More possibly as I don't think the Welsh First Minister was subbed.

All the leavers I know personally couldn't give a toss about the economy (being adequately rich pensioners) but wanted both to stick two fingers up to Germany and to have fewer immigrants

thats exactly what the leavers I know have said, including members of my family

benefits of a more globally focused economy.

Not sure IGM - i just caught the news on R4 at the end of very long drive. The only thing that I notesd was that the two parties didn't agree and that they were at odds with Welsh voters, (so yes you are stirring !! 😉 )

It's just more of the same old brexshit lies, just like the campaign they are still pretending to be all things to all people, more globalisation, less globalisation, fewer immigrants, more immigrants, brexit still means whatever you want it to mean, even 7 months down the line when there is still no coherent credible plan, just a load of jingoistic bullshit and wishful thinking. The only goal is to get A50 invoked, under the assumption that it's irrevocable the future catastrophe will be someone else's problem.

The politicians have been quick to grasp the perfect excuse for their lemming-like suicidal plunge - they were only following orders.

All the Leavers are happy to exchange a short term bump in the road economically to get the benefits of a more globally focused economy.

No they're not.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov

For THM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/23/wales-access-to-single-market-brexit-carwyn-jones-leanne-wood?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2

amusing to see that oz business men want the right to easier movement, as it seems do the US, add this to the £35K minimum wage in place and....

If your rich, free movement,if your poor or even average know you place! So while we will be happy to accommodate oligarchs, refugees can forget it.

I hear that there is African ex president with a few quid stashed away looking for a new home....

jambalaya - Member - Quote
All the Leavers are happy to exchange a short term bump in the road economically to get the benefits of a more globally focused economy. We will be much better off out imo.

I've heard religious fanatics quote less moronic dogma.

Go and ask, say, the population of Stoke (Brexit capital) how they feel about interest rates and inflation going up while their working conditions and pay go in the other direction.

Interest rates are down
Minimum wage is rising and pressure on terms and conditions from unlimited immigration will ease materially.
Inflation was below BoE target now rising towards that

@b r I said I thoight the really significant benefits would not flow through for 7-10 years

It's my strong view that the financial and economic catastrophe Europe will experience in the next 2-3 years will demonstrate to all what a good decision leaving the EU was

how about state intervention as promoted today , surely that goes agaisnt your principles ?

It's my strong view that the financial and economic catastrophe Europe will experience in the next 2-3 years will demonstrate to all what a good decision leaving the EU was

Will I get my right to free movement back?

molgrips - Member
Will I get my right to free movement back?

Yes, use your passport like anyone else from Non-EU.

But no work permit.

or free medical cover

or the right to study visa free

.....

pressure on terms and conditions from unlimited immigration will ease materially

Not heard that point before Jamba. Following the conversation I assume you're talking about T&Cs relating to working conditions? How does migration put pressure on them?

Will I get my right to free movement back?

Definitely not. You will not have the automatic right to live and work in any EU country and receive tye same rights as any other citizen (note in Germany EU citizens will not be able to claim benefots fir 5 years so some EU citizens are more equal than others)

Graham an effectively unlimited supply of labour will always depress wages and working conditions.

All these freedom of movement rights come at a very high cost to the UK in terms of depressed wages, pressure on public services, pressure on housing etc etc.

High Court decision expected tomorrow. If Govt loses new bill announced / introduced immediately May returns from the US maybe even before ?

Glee at taking away people's rights to move; joy at state control; lies about cause and effect in the workplace… Stalinism isn't dead it seems.

Actually, the Trump adoration in another thread suddenly makes more sense.

Jamba - Eu immigrants in the UK pay more in taxes and take less in benefits than the average UK citizen. therefore they create an increase in money the government has to spend so there is more money for healthcare and housing. Its Tory government policy not to spend this money on housing and healthcare - thats where the pressure comes from not from the numbers of immigrants.

Classic xenophobic scapegoating and completely wrong.

Orwell was right apart from he saw the left descending into totalitarianism - instead its the right. Just about everything else in 1984 is being done by this foul xenophobic tory government

tjagain - Member
Orwell was right apart from he saw the left descending into totalitarianism - instead its the right. Just about everything else in 1984 is being done by this foul xenophobic tory government

Who knows Scotland might become an independent country by that time when the last monarchy becomes the first president of smaller UK. You will be living happily at the North of England without a care in the world.

Chewkw, you're being foolish and failing to think it through again.
Deliberately?

Chewkw doesn't care, he can just go back to his home country.

A short term bump in the road? That must be the most trivialising understatement I've ever heard. Royally ****ed for the foreseeable, more like.

Chewkw doesn't care, he can just go back to his home country.

Chewkw doesn't care, he just enjoys stirring up the rest of us and we keep biting. Hook, line, sinker, rod, reel and copy of Angling Times.

pressure on terms and conditions from unlimited immigration will ease materially

You will not have the automatic right to live and work in any EU country

And this is a good thing is it?

I don't read this thread religiously, just dip in every couple of days to see what's going on.

I can't help wondering if Jamba is all just foreplay before unveiling the biggest edinburgh defence in the history of time 😉

Graham an effectively unlimited supply of labour will always depress wages and working conditions.

Ah ok, thank you for the clarification.

But if an "unlimited supply of labour" was impacting the market so badly wouldn't we be seeing a surplus of workers, resulting in high unemployment?

[url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment ]Unemployment is currently at 4.8%[/url], an 11 year low.

Does it matter? Things go in circle so you will have your chance again in future if the present system does not work.

Previous cycles suggest it'll be 40-50 years.

So no, I probably won't get my chance again. And if I do then my kids will probably be complaining that I'm just a nostalgic out-of-touch old man voting for things to go back to the halcyon days of my youth, before the CyberWars and the Zombie Plagues. 😆

Miller/Dos Santos vs Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union: judgment upheld.

Majority of 8:3

Interesting findings on devolved parliaments: they will NOT need consultation or agreement.

But it means nothing if MPs are just going to roll over and do what they're told for votes, does it?

Looks like the fun and games starts now then.

I expect the first people we'll hear from is that **** Farage, and the Mail with their 'Enemies of the People' foaming at the mouth nonsense.

Then the SNP clearly stating their intention to go for a second independence referendum. They can't do anything else really now its been stated that devolved governments don't need to be consulted.

From the BBC rolling feed

Jeremy Corbyn reacts to supreme court -"Labour will not frustrate process of invoking Article 50"

Corbyn's done, and so is labour. He'll do anything to cling onto any kind of relevance. Arsehole.

There was an interesting piece of R4's Today program between the NFU and the US equivalent re agricultural products and any FTA. A race to the bottom indeed - the NFU tacitly acknowledging that UK will suck up US food quality regulations/standards provided UK agriculture can deregulate likewise.

[i]I expect the first people we'll hear from is that **** Farage, and the Mail with their 'Enemies of the People' foaming at the mouth nonsense.
[/I]

Nope, nothing there yet, probably still having a epileptic fit 🙂

http://www.****/home/index.html

[quote=b r ]I expect the first people we'll hear from is that **** Farage, and the Mail with their 'Enemies of the People' foaming at the mouth nonsense.

Nope, nothing there yet, probably still having a epileptic fit
> http://www.****/home/index.html
br />

It's there

http://www.****/news/article-4150822/Judges-ruling-PM-executive-powers-trigger-Brexit.html

Now comes the point where MPs feel they need to vote for something against the interests of their constituents.
Prepare to be let down.

It was expected so no surprises.
The Devolution is more Sc especially in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Jeremy Corbyn reacts to supreme court -"Labour will not frustrate process of invoking Article 50"

Jeremy Corbyn reacts to supreme court -"Labour will not frustrate process of invoking Article 50"

Absolutely useless. I have cut up my card and left the Party because of his complete lack of opposition at any point in the Brexit run up and post referendum shambles. Who'd have thought that the Lib Dems would be the only viable opposition party?

That Mail article is very good as a piece of Daily Mash type satire. My favourite line?

Most controversially, Jeremy Corbyn is demanding a 'meaningful' vote on the final deal

How are the comments on the DM article shaping up?

usual brexie death threats for Gina Miller and the jidges and 'will of the people' repeated over and over?

also ruled devolved governments dont get consulted, I imagine some scotts will be jumping up and down for another vote...

Well it's pretty controversial for corbyn to do anything other than put his foot in his mouth. But if A50 is irrevocable, it's not possible for there to be a meaningful vote.

[Off topic - love the 'Daily Mail / abhorrent publication'l block on STW.]

and for now the grown up's are back doing what they should have started 6 months ago

Chair Andrew Tyrie asks the witnesses their view on the forthcoming EU negotiations, for their industry.

Mike Hawes of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, says the automotive industry has "really benefited" from the free movement of people and goods.

He tells the committee the "key issue" is ensuring the UK remains a competitive place to make and sell cars.

He'll do anything to cling onto any kind of relevance. Arsehole.

It's not that. He believes he has to represent the views of the electorate. That's why he's not fighting the government.

As the papers have been saying - he's totally stitched up and there's nothing he can really do. Labour is in huge trouble because Brexit vote totally split its voter base. Half of Labour voters are progressives, who are remainers; the other half are working class and conservative. Viewing them all as some kind of cohesive 'left' is a massive mistake, one which led to people being surprised at how a left wing party could lose voters to a far right one.

Half? I agree the Labour vote is split on this, but where did you get 50:50 from?

It's not that. He believes he has to represent the views of the electorate. That's why he's not fighting the government.

[quote=kimbers ]How are the comments on the DM article shaping up?
usual brexie death threats for Gina Miller and the jidges and 'will of the people' repeated over and over?

Lizzie7, Leeds, about a minute ago
Time to take to the streets!

Madashel, Newport, United Kingdom, 2 minutes ago
Sack all these judges Mrs May and replace them with hand picked honest ones that will represent the people and democracy in this country. Tony Blair did it for his own ends you have the power, use it against all these traitors, foreign businesses and so called elitists just in it for money. No doubt these judges have been suitably rewarded for siding with anti democratic pro EU rich people.

sonia67, london, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
Who the hell is paying the wages of these judges? It's total madness!!!

etc

[quote=molgrips ]He'll do anything to cling onto any kind of relevance. Arsehole.
It's not that. He believes he has to represent the views of the electorate. That's why he's not fighting the government.
As the papers have been saying - he's totally stitched up and there's nothing he can really do. Labour is in huge trouble because Brexit vote totally split its voter base. Half of Labour voters are progressives, who are remainers; the other half are working class and conservative. Viewing them all as some kind of cohesive 'left' is a massive mistake, one which led to people being surprised at how a left wing party could lose voters to a far right one.

Agreed, but he could at least argue the case for the 48% and try to get the best deal for everyone. Instead, he's meekly kowtowing to the tories.

He's pathetically weak. He loves putting out a Facebook video or comment saying how he's showing solidarity with whatever issue is his flavour of the week, but his actual actions and results are severely lacking. He's done nothing and he'll continue to do nothing.

Bob - I'm worried that 7 year old Lizzie from Leeds is a) thinking about taking to the streets without a responsible adult and b) allowed on Mail comments on her own.

LOL at the DM comments.

[i]"Stop respecting the sovereignty of parliament - that isn't what we voted for..."[/i]

Ultimately I still very much doubt anything will come of this. The principle was important and I think the right judicial decision has been made. But the motion will be waved through parliament with a minimum of fuss.

Possibly Graham - but get nagging your MP just in case.
And get your friends to do the same.

If all MPs followed their constituencies wishes article 50 would be given the all clear anyway wouldn't it? (assuming people would vote the same again)

kelvin - Member

Half? I agree the Labour vote is split on this, but where did you get 50:50 from?

Labour voters voted to remain by a 67% majority.

Just watching the news coverage one thing that always comes across is what a profoundly stupid little man Iain Duncan Smith is. I used to think that possibly he was deliberately misrepresenting the constitution for political ends, but in reality I now think he's simply too thick to understand it.

Ken Clarke was valiantly trying to explain it to him in words of less than two syllables, like explaining quantum physics to a 3 year old, but it still wasn't registering

"But the motion will be waved through parliament with a minimum of fuss."

So we can conclude leaving isn't anticipated to be very damaging to the UK.

So we can conclude leaving isn't anticipated be very damaging to the UK.

Let's hope the price of petrol keeps going up so that the bigots can see how much their vote is going to cost them.

So we can conclude leaving isn't anticipated to be very damaging to the UK.

No I don't think we can conclude that at all.

I think we can conclude that many MPs will vote as instructed by their party, many will vote as instructed by their constituency, and many will vote as instructed by the referendum result.

Most will keep their heads down as they have nothing to gain by rocking the boat.

Some will rebel and oppose, based on their particular party/constituency/country/conscience lines, but seems pretty clear to me they will be a minority.

Possibly Graham - but get nagging your MP just in case.
And get your friends to do the same.

I'm in the North East, with a longstanding Tory MP, I can't see me shifting his stance!
Even my friends are only about a 60:40 split to towards Remain.

Chris the **** Grayling is my mp.
His constituents voted to stay, his party leader was pro stay.He is an out.
Should he reflect the wishes of his boss and voters-?

Most will keep their heads down as they have nothing to gain by rocking the boat.

If MPs have nothing to gain by stopping Brexit, we can conclude leaving isn't anticipated to be very damaging to the UK, can't we?

Or do you think that life after leaving will be so good it will actually be a vote winner?

Half? I agree the Labour vote is split on this, but where did you get 50:50 from?

I didn't. I was using the figurative half, not the literal one. My bad, as they say.

Agree that Corbyn is not doing a good job at all.

Piece in the guardian today saying Brexit could be great as it gives the tools to the UK government to properly invest in Britain. It'd be nice if they did.

Let's hope the price of petrol keeps going up so that the bigots can see how much their vote is going to cost them.

Bugger petrol, if they shop in Lidl they'll see Parme :?san Cheese has shot up 60p in the last couple of weeks!! 😕

I feel that sweaty, mild, pre sliced cheddar is probably the official cheese of Brexit.

zippykona - Member

Let's hope the price of petrol keeps going up so that the bigots can see how much their vote is going to cost them.

I couldnt believe the price of petrol when i filled up this morning, having not filled up for 6 weeks. Needless to say I instantl thought 'bl00dy brexit' 😆

Even my friends are only about a 60:40 split to towards Remain.

Then only persuade the 60% to nag their MP. 😉

If MPs have nothing to gain by stopping Brexit, we can conclude leaving isn't anticipated to be very damaging to the UK, can't we?

You really are very determined to spin this aren't you oob?

It's [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946 ]a matter of record[/url] that before the referendum MPs of all parties declared very strongly in favour of Remain.

But most have nothing to [i]personally[/i] gain in rebelling against it now because, for the reasons I outlined, they know they won't succeed in stopping it so it's not worth making themselves targets and putting their positions in danger.

But most have nothing to personally gain in rebelling against it now because, for the reasons I outlined, they know they won't succeed in stopping it so it's not worth making themselves targets and putting their positions in danger.

A50 Trigger Bill wil be passed easily. Question is how much parties like SNP will try and frustrate and slow down the process. The big positive from a Leaver's perspective is that there will be no seperate approval from NI, Wales and Scotland all will be done in Westminster.

As I wondered a few pages back, will we see the uktra short bill before May goes to NY, maybe it seems. It could be very powerful to have Trump speak about the US/UK deal at the same time as we launch the Bill.

But most have nothing to personally gain in rebelling against it now because, for the reasons I outlined, they know they won't succeed in stopping it

Why not? If it needs a vote failure to win that vote means no Brexit. May just shrugs her shoulders and blames parliament. Tragedy averted.

If people voted by 2pc to eat razor blades parliament wouldn't ratify it, I can't escape from the conclusion that parliament doesn't think life outside the EU will be that bad. Or at least the consequences will not be as bad as ignoring a close run referendum.

wasnt Mays constituency 60% remain?

as brexishambles judders on, she'll be needing those brown trousers 🙂