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I can sympathise with that view THM
What are the negatives, immigration aside? As has been proven immigration is beneficial. What are the other negatives, reclaiming our sovereignty ???
A question I've often asked.
Can any Brexiteer actually give a definitive example of how the EU has made their life worse? Completely excluding jingoist flag waving, xenophobia or racism, can they actually say how it's made life worse in the UK?
Reclaiming sovereignty is BS and a bid steaming pile of it at that.
Its also disingenuous to argue that you are restoring sovereignty AND looking to enhance trade globally
as the briefing that I linked to early noted
The notion that a country can have complete regulatory sovereignty while engaging in comprehensive free trade is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of free trade
You're going to have to either explain what you're getting at then or just accept that when I'm talking about "democracy" I'm talking about democracy as we have it in the UK rather than any broader church that may be implemented slightly differently in other parts of the world. As far as I can tell, in this context, they are one and the same thing.
If I'm wrong you'll need to elaborate because it's beyond my understanding and I don't know what else you could be getting at.
Can any Brexiteer actually give a definitive example of how the EU has made their life worse?
All I've ever heard is headline style rhetoric, and I've tried. They're "meddling in our affairs" and "forcing rules on us," but when asked to give examples they can't. Or if they can it's trivial or nonsense, like the colour of the passport, bent bananas and the royal crest on pint glasses.
The subject of this thread - a referendum on membership of the EU
So just checking Jamby still not back to answer the questions... Must be on his way to the Trump party then (redacted I've been to the pub)
Brexit is going to be the making of a new, modern and outward looking United Kingdom.
Gazing out over the channel for the telltale signs of Spanish galleons.
It that the buccaneering spirit the Brexies were recommending S.O.M.?
What's absurd is that we always give up freedoms and/or pay money to get benefits. We pay taxes and live by laws, so that the laws and state can protect us. We pay subscriptions to clubs so that we can get benefits. Leavers have assumed that we get nothing back from the EU. I don't know why they can't see this.
i think many of them thought they could still get the thing they wanted - trade or the economic benefits thereof- without actually bothering with any of the other requirements of the club
TM still seems to think this is possible if they don't "punish us"
I don't know why they can't see this.
They don't think the benefits are worth the subscription fee. It is just a different viewpoint.
Do they know what the benefits really are though?
have they tried looking them up, mol?
My team have mostly voted Leave.
I'm leaving the UK for reasons other than Brexit but there's a real possibility that I would have had to leave the UK Because of Brexit. ( not qualifying for a visa).
My position is not going to be filled and the whole section will be taken over by contracting company. My team will be Tuped with much worse conditions that they have now.
Bonkers!
Do they know what the benefits really are though?
No one does.
We pay subscriptions to clubs so that we can get benefits. Leavers have assumed that we get nothing back from the EU. I don't know why they can't see this.
Oh, we know we get [i]something[/i] back
We just dont think that its value for money, taking into account what we get in return and what goes with it
I don't know why you can't see this?
Going back to France Chris?
Oh, we know we get something back
What do you think we get back then? Honestly.
Some of the money that we hand over, freedom to trade with our neighbours, collaboration and shared effort on a number social and economic issues and the ability to live and work on the continent.
Some of them I'm more bothered about than others, some of them are mixed blessings, some of them we already had without having to enter into the rest.
Now, what do you think are the costs, honestly?
Yes.
Benefits?
Freedom of movement
Freedom of trade
Scientific cooperation
Military cooperation
ninfan - Member
Now, what do you think are the costs, honestly?
Negative over all
Some of the money that we hand over, freedom to trade with our neighbours, collaboration and shared effort on a number social and economic issues and the ability to live and work on the continent.
A lot of people think that increased ease and lower costs of trade actually generates more money than we pay in. So in simple money terms we get back more than we pay in.
Do you agree?
By a country mile
Military cooperation
Really? Very much a French point of view, as they have never liked the US influence in Nato, hence the 30 year soujourn from the Command Structure.
A lot of people think that increased ease and lower costs of trade actually generates more money than we pay in. So in simple money terms we get back more than we pay in.Do you agree?
No, because we already had free trade prior to the creation of the EU (along with the associated acceptance of the second and third pillars) and the subsequent rounds of EU expansion and Lisbon treaty.
The EU we are now a member of bears little comparison with trade organisation that we originally joined, and many of us would have been more than happy if it had stayed that way.
The biggest issue of course, is that I don't think Trade, EU membership, nor its costs and benefits, can be measured in "simple money terms"
Now, as I asked you above - what do you think the costs are, honestly?
Trade expanded significantly both with EU and non-EU countries (see my earlier link) including c'wealth countries
The cost is a rounding error
Plus many non monetary benefits too
If it can't be measured in monetary terms, how can you be sure that it isn't worth it? Those two assertions would be mutually exclusive I'd have thought.
350m a week?
Ninfan - I gave my honest answer on the costs (negative overall) so we can put that aside.
What are you advocating though? A return to to 1970s, to the EEC? Be positive for a change. You are coming across like Oscar Wilde's description of a cynic. Or are you a sentimental nationalist? 😉
what do you think the costs are, honestly?
It's about a penny for every pound paid in tax.
Not sure what the point of this discussion is really. It's not in dispute that the govt pays something in the region of 250 million a week in fees, of which we get back a substantial chunk directly in grants and payments (eg 1.2bn per year for science, all the farm support payments, various development projects in poorer areas). So in net cash terms the outlay is a lot lower than the headline payment. Then there's all the harder-to-quantify benefits such as the right to travel, work and trade freely with half a billion people, negotiate as part of a powerful trading bloc, rely on EU-wide arrangements for standards and safety, etc.
It's on the Government's own advisory document that was sent to everyone, in fact. You've read it, right?
[i]The benefits of EU membership
The UK is part of the EU, a group of 28 countries which exists to promote economic security, peace and stability. 40 The EU operates as a single, free trading market, without taxes between borders.41
The UK has secured a special status in the EU. The UK has kept the pound, will not join the euro and has kept control of UK borders. We have ensured that no UK powers can be transferred to the EU in the future without a referendum. The UK will keep full access to the single market, with a say on its rules. [b]For every £1 paid in tax, a little over 1p goes to the EU.[/b] The government judges that what the UK gets back in opportunities, job creation and economic security from EU membership far outweighs the cost.[/i]
If it can't be measured in monetary terms, how can you be sure that it isn't worth it? Those two assertions would be mutually exclusive I'd have thought.
If I offer you a night of unbridled passion that you'll never forget (with me) in return for a ride on your bike, It would be [i]impossible[/i] to attach a monetary value, but I'll bet you would be rapidly able to assess whether it was worth it 😉
Then there's all the harder-to-quantify benefits such as the right to travel, work and trade freely with half a billion people, negotiate as part of a powerful trading bloc, rely on EU-wide arrangements for standards and safety, etc.
You accept that there would also be costs that fall into this "harder-to-quantify" bracket as well as benefits, yes?
Indeed. But overall in funancial terms EU membership is net positive. Agreed?
Hot off the FAKE NEWS! MSM! CLICKBAIT! press.
The boss of Nissan Carlos Ghosn has admitted that the car giant's UK investments will be "re-evaluated" if Theresa May delivers a bad Brexit deal, despite last October's high-profile commitment by the firm to build its next Qashqai and X-Trail model at its Sunderland plant.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/nissan-boss-carlos-ghosn-admits-uk-investment-will-be-reviewed-a7537586.html
Indeed. But overall in funancial terms EU membership is net positive. Agreed?
Impossible to assess, as there are known unknowns - for example, We know that EU membership currently prevents us entering into our own bilateral free trade agreement with US/India/Canada/Aus & NZ etc. - whats unknown is whether increased trade with those countries would be greater than EU trade if we were not in the EU, or had never joined the EU, or were members of EFTA but not EU.
We cant tell what would have developed if we were not in the EU, so cant accurately assess whether membership is a £ net positive.
You are changing the question.
Is it positive at the moment? Not with if.
Impossible to assess, as there are known unknowns
Would you not take the best informed guess of an expert, then?
As for harder to quantify benefits - it's clear that the right to live and work abroad is a benefit. And that it also can have negatives. Manging these negatives without losing the positives would seem to be the best policy, no?
The government judges that what the UK gets back in opportunities, job creation and economic security from EU membership far outweighs the cost.
Has Mrs. Ming read that?
its impossible to know if you jump out of plane at 30,000 foot without a parachute we just dnt know what will happen as there are so many unknownsImpossible to assess, as there are known unknowns
I dont think that means the alternative of live and die are equal though or each guess equally valid
Whilst your point is a truism your conclusion and insinuation is deeply flawed
As for harder to quantify benefits - it's clear that the right to live and work abroad is a benefit. And that it also can have negatives. Manging these negatives without losing the positives would seem to be the best policy, no?
I was pretty quick in answering the question on what the benefits of membership were - but you lot seem to be having a really hard time coming up with a list of costs of membership.
I'll throw you a bone, since I have mentioned it above:
One of the costs of membership is that we are not able to form our own bilateral trade agreements with other countries where it might be in our (the UK's) interest, but opposed by others in the EU, that is a clear [b]cost[/b] of membership.
See if you can think of any others!
I'm not even sure that is one, let alone finding others.
[i]No, because we already had free trade prior to the creation of the EU (along with the associated acceptance of the second and third pillars) and the subsequent rounds of EU expansion and Lisbon treaty.[/I]
I worked in many countries, both in the EU and outside and it's a PITA when you're needing to arrange visas, permits etc and just adds costs and time to each and every piece of work.
Just been working with a clients client and organised a project that uses staff based in both the UK and Poland plus we can ship the data between the two countries easily, safely and legally. Post-brexit it'll just mean that the project will cost more (and no doubt take longer); all increasing costs for the UK businesses involved.
One of the costs of membership is that we are not able to form our own bilateral trade agreements with other countries where it might be in our (the UK's) interest, but opposed by others in the EU, that is a clear cost of membership.
Actually you don't know whether a more flexible deal on our own would be better or a deal done with the weight of a huge trading block behind you.
So it's not a clear cost. Sorry and all.
The lack of freedom to do so is a cost of membership, something that we give up in return for, whatever the fiscal or trade impact.
Well we'll see how these hypothetical trade deals, that the EU has supposedly blocked up to now, stack up against the ones we already have and will lose...
The one with the USA should be "done and dusted" in 90 days, right? So that will be sorted by Easter then (I realise it cannot be operational until we actually leave the EU, but there's no reason why it can't be agreed in principle).
Yes. I suppose we've proved we have the freedom to make things worse.
Another cost is that businesses must comply with EU working time directive. Would be much better if workers could work 70 hours a week.
but you lot seem to be having a really hard time coming up with a list of costs of membership.
There's no need to be quite such a dick. Some of us might be working.
One of the costs of membership is that we are not able to form our own bilateral trade agreements with other countries where it might be in our (the UK's) interest, but opposed by others in the EU, that is a clear cost of membership.
That's quite hypothetical. Why would a country negotiate a different trade agreement with us than with the EU as a whole? Got any examples of this?
Post-brexit it'll just mean that the project will cost more (and no doubt take longer); all increasing costs for the UK businesses involved.
This is true. As I said before, we had to pay a third part over a grand just so that I could go to Switzerland for a few weeks. It would cost more to go for longer, and if I go for more than whatever it is, 6 months or something, I get into a massive problem with personal taxation even though I'm still employed in the UK and paid by a UK company and not a Swiss one.
Preventing us doing trade deals??? - lets be clear (1) we did better deals because we were part of the EU, (2) by definition in a single market you have to negotiate as one body not as individual countries - that is just common sense not a negative of the EU
Trade has increased under our membership. Significantly. Don't believe the BS.
Another cost is that businesses must comply with EU working time directive. Would be much better if workers could work 70 hours a week.
Businesses have to comply, individual employees do not. It's for workers' protection from less scrupulous employers. If you want to be allowed to work 70 hours a week you can simply opt out (I have).
6 months or something, I get into a massive problem with personal taxation even though I'm still employed in the UK and paid by a UK company and not a Swiss one.
That would be the same if you went to an EU country now, very little EU direct tax law, 90% done thru bilateral treaties (as we have with Switzerland)
Trump 'We will follow two simple rules - Buy American and Hire American'
Just what we want to be negotiating a new trade deal with...
we did better deals because we were part of the EU,
I don't think that's a given, we may have been willing to give more away to get more but were stifled by one of our partners who wanted to protect their industry.
That's quite hypothetical. Why would a country negotiate a different trade agreement with us than with the EU as a whole? Got any examples of this?
Well for one thing we offer a much smaller market than the whole of the EU, so countries negotiating a deal just with us might not want to offer quite as much.
Then of course there is the argument that the need for consensus in the EU has blocked trade deals that the UK government was gagging to sign up for, like TTIP.
Just think how much better TTIP will be if we reincarnate a British-only version of it from the much weaker negotiating position of smaller market, a depressed currency, and a desperate need to be seen to be making deals.
You are changing the question.
I don't see why anyone is actually responding to questions from brexshitters when they haven't answered simple questions themselves.
That would be the same if you went to an EU country now
If you *moved* to one, yes. This guy didn't move, he was working through a large uk business who sold his services to Switzerland, he was travelling weekly staying in hotels, the usual thing. Don't think it would be the same in an EU country..?
Don't think it would be the same in an EU country..?
It may be different, but not because they are an EU country, depends upon the interaction of domestic law and relevant treaty - Nothing to do with EU, as I have had to point out to Jamba when he rants about the Eu being responsible for corporate tax avoidance.
Not sure where there is a question which someone wants answered ?
On trade deals and the EU (my opinion of course) is that they are not that interested. The EU is about the super-state project, it's about expanding the list of members and ever closer union. As such deals with third parties they don't prioritise. That's part of the reason I couldn't even be bothered trying, token gesture maybe but just forget them.
Hammond has a good point with regard to freedom of movement, the A10 (?) expansion was the key moment which effectively broke the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.
but ignore him at your peril. His sort of thinking will destroy this country.
@igm First part thank you. It's always important to understand fhe alternative view, that's what I think and why I come here. The second part obviously I see differently! I'd be happy to meet one day, I can't pedal and speak at the same time, I can listen though 😉
On Trump as it's specific to this discussion he is going to make life difficult for Europe in three ways
1) NATO, he will force European countries to pay their 2% on defence. That will create budget problems for them and weaken their hand elsewhere, eg trade negotiations
2) IMF, he will use the US's dominant position there to get a fabulous deal on any eurozone bailout - that will be really bad for the EU. He may even move to replace Lagrande and end the run of French leadership.
3) He will be more pro-British, he will do a trade deal with us which will strengthen our hand
3) He will be more pro-British, he will do a trade deal with us which will strengthen our hand
Yay! Crappy American cars for everyone. And he'll probably have us driving on the right before Bob is identified for shagging your Aunty. 🙄
I can't wait to get my hands on some top quality American produced foodstuffs.
Chlorinated chicken for sir...
Mmm. I believe their cheese is amazing too.
And of course the latest news being Nissan in Sunderland will be pulling out of the UK despite the lauded "golden handshake" T'Mo promised once Brexit happens.
See the news feeds fellas.
I don't think that's a given,
I don't either, but it's likely.
Then of course there is the argument that the need for consensus in the EU has blocked trade deals that the UK government was gagging to sign up for, like TTIP.
Sorry, what's TTIP?
I don't see why anyone is actually responding to questions from brexshitters when they haven't answered simple questions themselves.
Because we're above that sort of pettiness.
Not sure where there is a question which someone wants answered ?
Dear god, I've lost track. How about the one I asked about your wife's opinion on Brexit for a starter?
I can't wait to get my hands on some top quality American produced foodstuffs.
There are many things the US do well, and many things they do badly. But if you're going to line up reasons to criticise the US, food is a weak foundation.
3) He will be more pro-British, he will do a trade deal with us which will strengthen our hand
Sure he will- like TTIP but a lot worse for us. You think the NHS is in bad shape now? Wait til Big Pharma is running the show!!
anonymous poster
Zokes. My name is Andrew Bird, it's in my profile. Have posted a few photos on myself on various threads. I'll spare you all another here.
Wait til Big Pharma is running the show!!
Did you see Pharma share prices after Trump committed to better price negotiation for medicine as he says the US is paying too much ?
@bikebouy Toyota and Nissan confirmed their commitment to UK manufacturing after TM's "no single market" speech (see link) Also confirmed UK offered no money to Nissan re Quashqai production. I have a feeling we will have a free trade deal for Japanese cars, lets have more petrol/electric hybrids where they excel and can the diesels poisoning us all.
Have posted a few photos on myself on various threads. I'll spare you all another here.
Thanks for that small mercy Jamba, I will of course demonstrate a similar kindness
I suppose we've proved we have the freedom to make things worse.
Nailed it.
Not sure where there is a question which someone wants answered ?
You're such a comedian.
Jamba - with regard to cars as I pointed out earlier, EVs are great provided you can charge them. The EU was actually pone of the things assisting us with charging them. Now provided deals can be done, it may still be. We'll see.
Also for Nissan (leader in EVs around here) see also Renault.
Sorry, what's TTIP?
A proposed (and now dead) Trade Deal between the US and the EU that Cameron and Osborne were really keen to sign us up to, but the rest of the EU had other ideas.
Jamba - on Nissan reviewing Sunderland commitment this may help - I think it's more recent than your autocar link.
What it doesn't say is "we're off" but it does kind of say "if May doesn't get a good deal for us, we're off".
igm - Member
Jamba - on Nissan reviewing Sunderland commitment this may help. What it doesn't say is "we're off" but it does kind of say "if May doesn't get a good deal for us, we're off".
If Nissan pull out of UK the Nissan brand will become so insignificant within one decade if not within 5 years.
They can forget their Merican market coz that will not happen now ...
They can forget their Mexican plant selling across the boarder to Merica coz that too is dead in the water.
They can forget selling their cars anyway North East of EngerLand.
They can still sell it to Russia ... ya, Russia.
They can sell it to China but as they are Japanese brand they better apologise publicly to the Chinese if they want to push for bigger market there. SE Asia market ... nahh ... dead in the water.
Yes, they can still sell it in EU or France ... see if France permits their national car brands to be called Nissan.
😆
As they are also known as Renault I doubt they'll have much trouble in France.
igm - Member
As they are also known as Renault I doubt they'll have much trouble in France.
Yes, they will be called Renault. Yes, No more Nissan.
The Nissan brand will completely disappear from the car industry. 😛
In the far east Renault brand is not a brand people even look at. There might be few buying Renault cars but they are very rare ...
If it becomes Renault then that bloke Carlos will become some French blokes' personal assistant. 😆
[quote=chewkw ]Yes, they will be called Renault. Yes, No more Nissan.
Where does the money go? Do you think they care what badge is on the back of the cars they're selling?
Nissan sales figures from [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/303#post-7996699 ]your own post[/url] three months ago chewkw:
Top 10 Nissan Markets
Country --- Total Sales -- Market Share
U.S. --- 1,484,918 ---- 8.5%
China* --- 1,250,073 ---- 5.3%
Japan --- 589,046 ------ 11.7%
Mexico --- 348,941 ------ 25.8%
UK --- 169,247 ------ 5.6%
Canada --- 129,976 ------ 6.8%
Russia --- 128,713 ------ 8.0%
France --- 77,200 ------- 3.6%
Germany --- 74,596 ------- 2.2%
UAE --- 66,839 ------- 15.9%
Seems like they already do pretty well in China! And surprisingly well in France too.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]ironically May who is doing what they wanted, not what she wanted
I've commented on this a few times before - you're not jamba, so don't keep avoiding the point! What exactly do you think Maybe actually wanted? Before the referendum campaigns she certainly made Eurosceptic statements and it's easy to get the impression that it isn't any particular policy she wanted...
Meanwhile the voters didn't want a hard Brexit.
Did you see Pharma share prices after Trump committed to better price negotiation for medicine as he says the US is paying too much ?
Umm ... what that has to do with selling generic medicine in the NHS is another question
[url= http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/05/ttip-explained-the-secretive-us-eu-treaty-that-undermines-democracy/ ]cougar - ttip[/url]