£13 Billion pounds to access "free" trade though..
but we sell them >[s]£200bn[/s] £170bn worth of goods!
corr, prices really have shot up
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jar-of-Marmite-/252583478534?hash=item3acf260506:g:ExgAAOSwLF1X~3gG
but we sell them >£200bn worth of goods!
And uk import £300bn from eu
£13 Billion pounds to access "free"* trade though..
fallacy of equivocation
free- without cost
free-unrestricted
it is free trade but that does not mean it has no cost
New survey being passed round #SNP16 - shows (55%) would support an independence referendum in the event of a Tory-led hard #Brexit.
And if Scotland does vote out, or more interestingly what would be the required majority? 50% +1 or something more sensible 66%?
Wonder what the outcome of this will be, if not handled carefully this is going to go horribly wrong very quickly.
Well done Cameron!
£13 Billion pounds to access "free" trade though..
Not that far removed from paying £5 to get £30 off the price of a tent 😀
^^ 😆
THM - whilst your economic arguments are good you're forgetting the human factor. Nobody up here is under any illusion that a Yes vote would spell instant prosperity (well, some are but there always will be a few). What we do know is that we would be getting away from the increasingly nasty and divisive politics that is coming out of Westminster.
I really hoped after the last referendum that a message had been sent. You would have thought the preceding election would have really hit it home. But no, fingers in ears all round. This isn't working and if things really do go as badly as everyone seems to think then what difference does it make if we're buggered either way? At least in the EU we get the benefits of membership. And it's not an instant jump to the Euro, only a commitment, the same commitment that Sweden and the Czech Republic and every other non eurozone member state has made. Even EEA would be better than out on our arse.
mrmo - 50% +1 was the last run. Which I don't like as close results obviously lead to a lot of angry people. If she has any sense she will up the figure to at least 60% and wait for a decisive majority or it would REALLY screw things up.
Nobody up here is under any illusion that a Yes vote would spell instant prosperity
My Scottish boss summed it up perfectly. We don't think it will be better just if we are being ****ed we'd prefer to do it ourselves. Bit nose and face really same as the EU one
reality hitting home isnt nice
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/repentant-leave-brexit-voter-chokes-up-tear-son/
SQ simple questions
1 how would you manage transition to €? No answer last time and none now
2 would SNP have pol appetite to reduce Scotland's deficit!
After that it gets complicated. But all the soft Mel Gibson inspired fuzzy notions of control are as false as those promised by the BSers. Correction they are worse that that
Protest/gesture politics can't override reality for ever
THM I think you need to start another IndyRef thread !!
but basically all sturgeon has to do is convince enough voters that Independence (and continued EU membership-which is obvs not guaranteed) is the least bad option over a hard brexit
Squirrelking, a60% result would be good but would rather screw Westminster and brexit. How can one be decisive and the other not enough?
Problem is hard brexit is like a self inflicted [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt ]John Wayne Bobbitt[/url] (link for the millennials) but with very little prospect of a successful reattachment. Anything is better than the political equivalent of flytipping with your name and address on the bags of leaving your wallet while shitting on your neighbours doorstep
No I will leave it their - sorry for the deviation!! It's just watching the latest Nat stuff beggars belief. It's as if the whole world has lost its senses
brexshit
Jezza
The 3 BSers
Trump
Clinton
Sturgeon
The list goes on....
Back on topic now though
fuzzy notions of control are as false as those promised by the BSers. Correction they are worse that that
Most people couldn't care less about being better off, they want that fuzzy feeling of freedom.
It's not about "taking control" it's about living in a country where you aren't politically diametrically opposed to the "majority". Not a protest vote either, I know full well that it would be a binding choice (I do understand the difference between an election and national referendum).
I can't answer the economic arguments, not my area of expertise and won't pretend otherwise. It's up to whoever is making the case (and this time they had better make one. Again, lessons learned from the BSers).
No idea on deficit reduction, you would have to ask whoever is, again, making the case and then those in power, we won't be a one party state. Can see SNP having a few defections left and right leaving a roughly Lib Dem type party behind though.
I should point out at this point I'm not an SNP fanboi. In fact I think it would be fair to say I'm not their greatest fan, I never voted for anyone in the last Scottish elections as the choices were that bad. It doesn't mean I can't be objective though and look beyond party politics.
EDIT: Actually majority is a misnomer but the currently broken FPTP system makes it feel that way.
Indeed #fakecontrol
Scotland voting out is potentially good news. Brexit brings some short term pain for the UK as a whole but now there's a chance to mitigate that by cutting the purse strings north of the border and letting Scotland get on and pay more for public services just like they are always talking about - but at their cost.
So more money left for the impoverished English regions. Win Win.
If we get to see less Salmond and Sturgeon on the telly that will a positive result as well.
Most people couldn't care less about being better off, they want that fuzzy feeling of freedom.
A sentiment that is much easier to have when you are better off.
Scotland voting out is potentially good news. Brexit brings some pain for the UK as a whole but now there's a chance to mitigate that by cutting the purse strings north of the border and letting Scotland get on and pay more for public services just like they are always talking about - but at their cost.So more money left for the impoverished English regions. Win Win.
Didn't take long did it?
Apart from money flows from scotland to england and has done for almost all of the last 40 years.
A sentiment that is much easier to have when you are better off.
Or worse off.
Oh christ! Not this again.
Apart from money flows from scotland to england and has done for almost all of the last 40 years.
Yes but the difficulty is in those "almost" years isn't it?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/11/alex-salmond-scotland-oil-boom ]Alex Salmond predicts £57B oil boom for Scotland[/url]
[url= http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2016/03/scottish-deficit-almost-double-uks-spending-gap-gers-report-finds ]Scottish deficit almost double the UK’s spending gap[/url]
Most people want a job holiday food roof etc, they believe what they are told by the media. That most people haven't had a pay rise for years and see things not getting better they have hit out.
But the target was the wrong one.
Scotland voting out is potentially good news
Yes but not for the reasons you stated! Here's the plan boys:
1. Scotland votes out
2. 'someone' (maybe the resurrected Jesus Christ, maybe Sturgeon) convinces the EU to keep Scotland in the single market
3. The City moves up to Edinburgh and Scotland gets the tax base
4. The manufacturers move up to Cumbernauld or wherever and Scotland gets the tax base.
5. The Scots leave it a couple of years to make the most of their good fortune at the expense of the English.
6. The Scots come back to the English with an offer of Union - such that England gets incorporated back into Scotland.
Would be a nice rebut to lazy claims about reliance on oil and recalling Darien.
Go for it Scotland.
Bainbrge - some of that isn't entirely fanciful.
igm, the Yorkshire Scot
Everyone ignoring my Holland comments?
Scotland can stay in single market, and be part of UK, even if rUK leaves, there is a precedent.
Of course,Tories would never allow it, so their hand would have to be forced, but it is a purely political problem, not something intrinsic to how either EU or single market are set up.
Spain would play hardball, of course, but if Scotland not actually a break away state, they might be talked around.
It would mean some kind of customs border.... But what ever "magic" is being planned to make the Irish border work could apply here as well.
[ no, I still don't understand what that magic is ]
Your Holland comments make no sense to me - cant see what you are getting at. North Holland and South Holland are just two of the provinces that make up the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
And there are other provinces that are not in the EU, but still part of the kingdom (and hence country), with citizens having full voting rates for the national parliament, etc, but no voting rights for EU parliament. So, part of the country is in the EU, and part if it isn't. Would be even simpler if talking Single Market, rather than EU.
[ "simpler" is a joke, it isn't simple at all ]
No all provinces are in EU.
As I have said before, if England and Wales had any decency at all, having seen the result of the brexit referendum, they would have seceded from the UK and gained their exit from EU that way.
Scotland and NI could then have remained as is in line with what they voted for, or at the very least have the option to do so.
But they didn't, they let a bunch of xenophobic slavering ****s take over to decide what is what.
Roll on IndyRef2 and hopefully good riddance to Westminster and the nasty little englanders once and for all.
A bit of googling says that some islands are still outside the EU, but their citizens are now (since 2010 referendum) EU citizens. That's even more interesting! Living in Nederlands, but outside EU, using US dollar as national currency, but full EU citizens. How messy/great is that! I want some of that…
I'm still hoping Scotland stays in UK, with more devolution, but that's just selfish self interest.
kelvin - Member
I'm still hoping Scotland stays in UK, with more devolution, but that's just selfish self interest.
Yes, there is the hope that Scotland will stay in the UK but if the people wish to be independent then so be it.
You just have to hope that people can forget and forgive the historical past long time ago.
After all the wish of the people must be met because that is how democracy works. As for the details of independence etc, well whatever the devil (referring to complicated paper works) is playing at it will be sorted no matter how painful it can be.
The world is changing ...
Kelvin - I don't think that is right at all. The netherlands is in the EU - all provinces of it. there is some constitutional anomolies in the Netherlands but I don't think you are right over the EU
And the hits keep on coming.
[i]Britain could be forced to pay the European Union a “divorce bill” of €20 billion (£18 billion) in the wake of the Brexit vote.
The “upper estimate” to separate from the bloc would cover the UK’s shared EU liabilities including, unpaid debt of €241 billion (£217 billion), and €63.8 billion (£57.5 billion) in pension liabilities, according to new analysis conducted by The Financial Times (FT).
The study is the first attempt to put a realistic “price tag” on leaving the EU with some EU officials even warning that the cost could be substantially higher.
Former UK Trade Minister Lord Livingstone said the cost spread over a year equates to £350 million a week.
[/i]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-divorce-bill-350m-a-week-a7359121.html ]Sorry NHS[/url]
"Folly" is a good word. I like "folly" to describe this whole sorry saga.
I notice the most recent comment on that story picks up on the rhetoric being spouted by the Mail and Express the other day:
[i]"Mrs. May is doing well so far. Our present problem is [b]the enemies of this country[/b]... clogg, bliar, minor, cluck, Archie Andrews farron and the like."[/i]
This sort of tone seems to be being used more and more. Worrying! 😕
and €63.8 billion (£57.5 billion) in pension liabilities
and people wonder why there was a vote to detach from the gravy train for eurocrats
For perspective:
In an analysis of the government’s balance sheet, the National Audit Office highlighted that although a host of government reforms had helped to generate cash and reduce pension costs in the longer term, the overall liability stood at around £1,493bn across more than 100 legally separate schemes in the 2014-15 Whole of Government Accounts.
And the DExEU gravy train is just pulling out the station.
