[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Nipper99 - Member

Brexit : Chinese official said : "UK is the door to European markets. With no access to Single Market It's just a door"

Go Brexit..

Edukator thnaks for no paywall access. Brooes yes big picture stuff, all maybes etc. Is what I would say. A bit ironic he calls Trump protectionist as that tag could not be more apt for the EU

The countries in difficulty were put in more difficulty because of Germany's refusal to fund debt with Eurobonds in the same was as the Fed funds states in difficulty with money at low interset rates.

The countries where in trouble on their own with a dollop of help from the misconceived euro. Germany is not stupid, the euro is misconceived so issuing bonds which ultimately it wouod be responsible for backing makes absolutely no sense what so ever. In fact it would be financial suicide. The US is one big country. The EU should not have introduced the euro until it was one big superstate.

Nipper if we want the country and lifestyle I think we all share we cannot be in the EU IMO

I am a bit confused about China posters, I thought they where the arch enemy and Osbourne was Satan for wanting to encourage investment from them ? Personally I am good with limited Chinese investment and continued tariffs, maybe even higher than currently on various items.

May will be interviewed on Sky News tomorrow at 10, good news is that it will be freely available online and on replay links.

Interesting post on reddit this evening about the 'bubbles' issue and the worlds we all inhabit: cut and paste alert, but I think this is absolutely key in understanding the divisions (voting and others) in the UK-

"This isn't by any means a summary of the entire issue but it is a key point that I don't see get the attention it deserves.
For the most part, Leavers and Remainers don't interact with the same Europeans. This is an absolutely crucial point.
If you live in London or Bristol or somewhere similar then most of the EU immigrants you've met are probably some combination of educated, affluent, working professionals (and lets face it mostly Western/Northern Europeans). I'm a scientist so my European friends are more intelligent and harder working than most of my English friends. Partially on the basis of this I voted remain.
But if I lived in an ex-industrial town up north and all the EU immigrants I'd ever encountered were low-skill labourers from Eastern Europe who could barely speak English and had moved in to replace the friendly English family who used to live next door, maybe I would have a different perception. It would seem like an invasion of people who didn't share my culture. Voting Leave would have been the easy and obvious choice.
So if you (like me) are still a bitter remoaner, try and bear in mind that other peoples interaction with Europeans may not be the same as yours."

Interesting insight. 2 worlds, almost touching each other.

[I]Wasn't this the reason that Nissan came in the first place?[/I]

Its the reason most internationals base themselves in the UK when they want to have a crack at Europe. Also don't forget both Honda and Toyota plants:

Vehicles per annum
Honda - 122k
Nissan - 500k
Toyota - 172k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom#2011_to_present

So if you (like me) are still a bitter remoaner, try and bear in mind that other peoples interaction with Europeans may not be the same as yours."

Interesting insight. 2 worlds, almost touching each other.

and while Australian immigration is once again being help up here is a sample of the updated citizenship test 😉
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/take-the-new-improved-australian-citizenship-test/8165646

Germany is not stupid,

In which case it is simply a bad partner. The EZ needs surpluses to be re-circulated if it is to work. That's basic. Germany remains in denial over this and the fact that creditors also have to take haircuts for making bad decisions. Blaming periphery countries is disingenuous. Germany is as much to blame for the failure of the EZ as the PIIGS

On Reddit piece which I think is illuminative I would add that the majority of my international colleagues are global, in fact very few are European. My primary interaction with Europeans work wise would be at the cleaner/ au pair end of the spectrum. Most of the colleagues I worked with at German Banks where not German or even European.

Germany is as much to blame for the failure of the EZ as the PIIGS

Perhaps more so ? They designed it, they ignored what was happening in Greece. They set the behavoural standard when they fiddled their own figures so they could join ! etc look who just got the big sub-prime fine Deutsche, the Lanesbanks stuffed full of it via CDOs ... Where was the Bundesbank / BaFin ?

Remind me again, are we in the EZ?

Most of the colleagues I worked with at German Banks where not German or even European.

Yet more experts

Why do these agreements take so long? The last generation of trade agreements was focused mainly on removing tariffs. Multilaterally, the single biggest recent event at the increasingly ineffectual World Trade Organisation has not been the conclusion of a successful round, but, rather, China’s accession in 2001. The next generation of bilateral agreements, of which Ceta is the template, is complex. They reflect the realities of modern commerce and go beyond trade, touching upon behind-the-border issues such as standards, regulation and opening government contracts to competitive bidding. This complexity means that the deals take years to negotiate and conclude. In our amped up media environment, there are special interests making noise at each step in the process, ensuring that trade and investment deals are a marathon, not a sprint.

jambalaya - Member
May will be interviewed on Sky News tomorrow at 10, good news is that it will be freely available online and on replay links.

I do hope everyone is taking notes from TM's interview because if her bit in the telegraph is anything to go by it won't take long
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/07/determined-build-shared-society-everyone/
Zero substance, zero plans, zero how and a lot of should. Talking the good talk about making things better but not really saying anything about how.

She really is quite vacuous

Is no longer Big Society, but Shared Society

Vague promises of a better tomorrow with 0 substance, nothing changes

May is coming across like an employee st a large multinational I contracted at once, very good at been an employee (very political and very important to be seen to do/say the right thing) but hopeless at actually getting anything done - so work was done by contractors and 3rd parties.

I can't even imagine she believes herself.

On that Reddit piece, in Castleford (a northern(ish) English town) where I work I met a number of Poles (Eastern Europeans I think). They came across as hard working and customer aware. Perhaps not the values of the local population (actually to a large extent I think they are) but they blinking well should be.
Good people.

Vague promises of a better tomorrow with 0 substance, nothing changes

Remind me of the opinion polls and who is in Government ? Plenty of things are changing and the Tories are getting further ahead every day as a result

Remind me of the opinion polls and who is in Government ? Plenty of things are changing and the Tories are getting further ahead every day as a result

You seem to be a bit confused about this democracy thing. Voting and polls don't actually do anything. You can vote for the Sun to rise in the west but that won't make it happen. The whole country can express a preference for May, but she still has no plan.

Remind me of the opinion polls

Is that what you needed reminding off or do you not even want to have one thing - beyond Muslim bashing- that you say and hold consistently?

- so work was done by contractors and 3rd parties.

This is how Britain has worked since the. 90s

if we want the country and lifestyle I think we all share we cannot be in the EU IMO

What country and lifestyle do you want which the EU is precluding?

What country and lifestyle do you want which the EU is precluding?

Streets full of white folks and spam fritters for tea. Good old days 🙂

What country and lifestyle do you want which the EU is precluding?

- so work was done by contractors and 3rd parties.
This is how Britain has worked since the. 90s

When I was a contractor at the London-based European Head Office of a finance company for 4 years, my clients were variously English, Dutch, ****stani, American, Half-French, so being political and not doing your job is, to be fair, not unique to the English.

And my mate working in the UAE only has his job because generally speaking, the indigenous Arab population are so ineffective...

and I'm sure somebody will be along to tell me I'm wrong but in summary
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38546820
Brexit Means Brexit an it will be RW&B. That about it?
In contrast some wise words from Ken

Earlier, Europhile former Conservative chancellor Ken Clarke told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show: "Theresa needs to address the more serious question, I think, of the muddle [Sir Ivan is] complaining about, see whether she agrees with him and decide whether she can improve the way in which she organises the government to get to a proper conclusion.
"[b]To turn everything into personal abuse as soon as anybody seems to faintly disagree with out new zealot crusade to leave the continent of Europe is rather an unfortunate feature of our post-Brexit politics[/b]."

I thought it was the one where everyone stood for the national anthem when the TV stopped playing and we were respected/feared the world over and won world cups - think about we havn't won anything since we joined.

from the May thread ...

Well done racists
I know it's a big mystery to some people as to "where did it all go wrong?" but that comment helps to explain much of what was wrong with the Remain campaign.

I tend not to bother listening to people who call me racist because I believe in democracy and the sovereignty of the British people, I certainly don't take anything they say very seriously.

The irony is that many Remainers denounce the electorate for being allegedly thick and yet these same people are too daft to figure out why despite everything being stacked in their favour, eg all the major political parties backing Remain and a compliant media, they still managed to screw up.

This from Ernie is spot on. Calling people racists just made Leavers feel they where right as Remainers had lost the plot and where simply hurling insults. I had this conversation numerous times on Vote Leave stalls.

Remainers have to grasp that their campaign was weak and with Corbyn giving the EU 7/10 and leading Remainers acknowledging the EU needed reform (ie was broken) was a desperately weak argument

Whatever people think of May she is absolutely crushing her political opposition in Labour and Lib Dems

Remainers have to grasp that their campaign was weak and with Corbyn giving the EU 7/10 and leading Remainers acknowledging the EU needed reform (ie was broken) was a desperately weak argument

Remainers have to grasp that their campaign didn't[i][b] play dirty enough[/b][/i].

> insert NHS logo here <

Some interesting surveys recently showing that the percentage of people who believe the NHS will benefit greatly from leaving the EU is at an all time high. Bullshit sticks…

[ http://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-think-leaving-the-eu-will-have-a-good-or-bad-effect-on-the-nhs/ ]

There is no opposition. The people will do what the papers tell them.
Jamb I would really like you to meet my mum. She is far from mobile and refuses to have any help as she has read about the foreign care workers who rob old people. She voted out as her friend had a Nigerian nurse be nasty to her in hospital.
She is a total ****ing **** wit. She sits in her front room soaking up everything the mail tells her and she is getting nastier by the minute.
She is not alone. These people really exist. Her decision to vote out wasn't made by examining facts ,it was made by a total hatred of foreign people.
Edit. She has never left the country either.

Calling people racists just made Leavers feel they where right as Remainers had lost the plot and where simply hurling insults.

They're in this thread several hundred pages ago but in the aftermath of the vote there was a never ending supply of videos showing the man or woman in the street being interviewed and every one was anti immigrant and/or anti foreigner and more often than not the view was frighteningly wrong. An overwhelming amount that voted to stop Muslims coming to the country for example.

The coherent arguments for brexit are far outweighed by the ill informed ones.

> insert photo of dark skinned refugees fleeing their war torn country here <

Leave didn't win because of ignorance and racism

[img] [/img]

Leave won because of ignorance and racism.

[quote=Junkyard ]Is that what you needed reminding off or do you not even want to have one thing - beyond Muslim bashing- that you say and hold consistently?

Leave the poor snowflake alone. He's also consistent at posting jambafacts.

Jamba - the quote you have from Ernie suggests a compliant media. Clearly he lives in a different universe if he thinks the media compliantly supported remain.
Some did, but normally in a balanced way.
Then we had the nutters of the Mail, Express, Sun and sadly the Telegraph.
The Times was fairly neutral.
I think the press on balance was nasty and Brexy.
A balanced press would have hung the Brexies out to dry after a Brexit supporter murdered Jo Cox - egged on by Nigel "without a shot being fired" Farage and his nasty racist poster (I make no comment on whether NF is racist himself of course).

(I make no comment on whether NF is racist himself of course

I know you think otherwise hebdencyclist but that research by Lord Ashcroft completely undermines the point that you are trying to make, ie, that's it OK to call those who were in favour of leaving ignorant racists.

Because it shows that a substantial percentage of people who voted to leave have no problem with multiculturalism, social liberalism, immigration, etc.

If only a small number of them had been sufficiently convinced it would have tipped it in favour of remain.

However dismissing them as ignorant racists made them far less likely to listen to people like you. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say if you are lying to their faces and calling them racists?

A lot of them were / are racists Ernie. Some weren't I agree.

Don't want to be called a racist? Don't side with them.

[quote=ernie_lynch ]I know you think otherwise hebdencyclist but that research by Lord Ashcroft completely undermines the point that you are trying to make, ie, that's it OK to call those who were in favour of leaving ignorant racists.

Where exactly is he making that point?

I've certainly never suggested that all people voting Leave were ignorant racists, however that doesn't mean I don't agree with the point he is making, which is supported by that research. Those are the people you are in bed with (though I'd think you might be more uncomfortable about jamba, ninfan, Gove, Loathsome et al as bedfellows than ordinary people who have been sold a lie).

igm - Member

Don't want to be called a racist? Don't side with them.

Haha brilliant !.......don't support leaving the EU otherwise I'll call you a racist!!!

EDIT : And right there is a classic example of what I mean about the futility of attempting to have a sensible debate.

[b]"It's nothing to do with immigrants"
"It's all to do with immigrants"[/b]

[i]loop and fade out…[/i]

Ernie - almost but not quite. Perhaps you missed a bit.

A lot of them were / are racists Ernie. Some weren't I agree.

And how is that working out for you politically IGM?

Seems to me that all the 'progressive political left' (for want of a better phrase) have achieved in calling out the racists and their fellow travellers is strengthening people's resolve not to be bulled, leading to the loss of the Brexit vote and catapulting Trump into power

Cheers aye!

ernie_lynch - Member
I know you think otherwise hebdencyclist but that research by Lord Ashcroft completely undermines the point that you are trying to make, ie, that's it OK to call those who were in favour of leaving ignorant racists.

It's late, I had a big day on the bike today and I'm pretty tired so may not be thinking clearly however looking at that table on the previous page, don't the two clear categories around immigration show pretty conclusively that those that thought immigration and multiculturalism were bad overwhelming voted leave???

Or am i completely misreading it?

80% of those who didn't like immigration or multiculturalism voted leave???

Completely flipped about for the remaining side

igm - Member
Ernie - almost but not quite. Perhaps you missed a bit.

A lot of them were / are racists Ernie. Some weren't I agree.

I think more that if almost everyone voting for something is racist, then think long and hard before you join them.
And for the record I haven't called you a racist - I don't know you and your postings on here don't really suggest it to me.
However fellow travellers can get tarred with the same brush, so people might start to make the wrong assumptions about the odd non-racist Brexy.

I think more that if [s]almost everyone[/s] some people voting for something is racist

I think the simple conclusion we came to was not all voting out were racist, but a very high percentage of the racists voted out.
Then there are those who start their points with "I'm not racist but..."

[quote=CountZero ]I think more that if [s]almost everyone[/s] some people voting for something is racist
That's far closer to the reality.

"almost everyone" is clearly a bit strong, but do you think they weren't the majority, or even the vast majority? I'm including here people who might claim not to be racist, but have views which effectively are.

Welcome to the thread BTW - it is useful to have opinions from the other side, and I'm certainly not going to fling insults at you. Why did you vote Leave?

I believe a lot of voters were duped by racist propaganda without realising

So much rhetoric about "foreigners" making decisions for Britain. Pile on top the whole "unelected" propaganda and it was a perfect storm. So even if people could say they weren't against those of a different colour, there was a pretty clear anti foreigner sentiment that many probably didn't realise they were buying into.

Personally I want the best people making decisions regardless of their nationality.

And looking at the incompetent fools that are leading us at the moment, I'd take anything over them at the moment.

Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren't members btw)

http://brexitcentral.com/must-leave-customs-union/

Why should anyone listen to what you have to say if you are lying to their faces

Says the man who voted for Farage and his £350million bus. 😉

However dismissing them as ignorant racists made them far less likely to listen to people like you.

They were never going to listen to any moderate, liberal voice. They (you) listened to populist dog-whistles about immigration and "taking back control" or something.

Anyway I asked you a question on the other thread. You said you voted Leave because you wanted sovereignty. I asked you what this meant, why you felt you did not have sovereignty before, and how the UK will be better now we have (you perceive) our sovereignty back, and whether those perceived benefits are worth any price.

Will you answer?

jambalaya - Member
Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren't members btw)

http://brexitcentral.com/must-leave-customs-union/
/p>

Rounding slightly for ease, but 50% of our imports and exports are from or to the EU

How will we have a better deal with the EU outside of it?

What are we going to bring to the table that will force a better deal with EU countries than the one we already have?

Maybe I'm being blinkered by i simply cannot see how we benefit here. The EU will screw us out of pettiness and to send a message to other member states

If we are then forced to go outside the EU for trade deals, we are on the backfoot as we have nowhere else to go and that puts others in a very, very strong negotiating position

jambalaya - Member
Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren't members btw)

Maybe I'm being blinkered by i simply cannot see how we benefit here. The EU will screw us out of pettiness and to send a message to other member states

The EU will negotiate the best for the EU, it's what they should be doing and I can hold no bitterness or anger towards that.

100%

And how is that working out for you politically IGM?

Is IGM running for office?

So much rhetoric about "foreigners" making decisions for Britain.

Yes. Brussels is closer to Dover than Paris is to Marseilles, or LA is to Washington DC. So what's the difference? It's cos they're FOREIGN.

Nationlism. End of.

Calling people racists just made Leavers feel they where right as Remainers had lost the plot and where simply hurling insults.

I'm not calling leavers racists. I'm calling them nationalistic and ignorant. Maybe also xenophobic.

Does that help?

Remain had a bad campaign, agreed. Not all leavers are racist, also agreed. However it's still a bloody stupid idea, and hugely diminishes the UK culturually.

So people voted to leave and it has nothing to do with immigration or the message written on the side of a bus.
Why exactly did they vote to leave then?

It has all to do with immigration.

But racism, xenophobia and nationalism are all different things. Related, yes, but different.

Here you go ZK, from a few days ago

teamhurtmore - Member 
Why dId we vote to leave??? Didnt you read the bus script?

1. £350m
2. Keep the nasties out
3. Give the folk in immigration 'owt to do
4. ditto the legislature - those folk in wigs, robes and ermine
5. Trade deal with the 12% of the world we don't have deals with now, while screwing the 88% that we do have

Source: #fakecontolwebsite

Simples. Why didn't anyone think of this before?

POSTED 4 DAYS AGO #

It has all to do with immigration.

For a lot of them it was to do with the left deliberatley using immigration as a political weapon to "rub their noses in diversity"* and promote multiculturalism, whilst successfully gerrymandering the Labour vote.

*Andrew Neather, former Labour advisor

and promote multiculturalism

And people are against multiculturalism...?

And people are against multiculturalism...?

Trevor Philips, former chair of the commision for racial equality, has said for years that it was a 'racket' and warned that it promotes segregation and difference rather than harmony and integration

What's the alternative? Monoculturlism? Forced integration?

Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren't members btw)

http://brexitcentral.com/must-leave-customs-union/

R4 Today this morning - the Swiss deal with the EU is that jobs have to be offered to Swiss citizens first apparently and on that basis they have access to the SM.

I'd be pretty certain that if you went back to a position of free movement of labour (rather than of persons generally) had something similar to Norway where you have to find a job within six months this could be presented as a huge victory by the [/s]National Socialists[s]Brexiteeers / Enola May (control blah blah blah) end of story.

And people are against multiculturalism...?

Many, are, and they voted Leave.
See the survey Hebdencyclist posted on the previous page.

"It's nothing to do with immigrants"
"It's all to do with immigrants"
loop and fade out…

There will be no fade, will there.…

end of story

You are a dreamer.
The reality is already pretty close to what you describe.
You are approaching this in a rational way,
Nothing I've read recently suggests that those wanting out would respond well to that.

As I got a bus through chinatown in san francisco recently, it struck me that peoples' views (including my own) on segregation and multiculturalism are very inconsistent and emotional rather than logical.

Why oh why do we live in a world where the Mash comes across as a serious newspaper

BREXIT voters are still expecting clarity from a gang of absolute shysters you couldn’t trust to do ****ing anything, it has emerged.

Many Brexiters say that although they are still happy they voted to Leave, they now want the untrustworthy gang of lying bastards behind the referendum to ‘give them some clarity on it’.

Donna Sheridan said: “I just want to know exactly what it is I’ve voted for. Is that too much to ask for from a gang of totally self-serving careerist politicians?

“I mean, there’s no way Neil Hamilton would get behind something he didn’t fully understand.”

Martin Bishop said: “Just because these people would have told us measles was caused by ghosts if it served their personal agenda, doesn’t mean they don’t have a detailed plan for the most complex economic shift in recent political history.

“Look at Boris. That’s the face of a man who knows.”

On the racist thing, it all went wrong when Gordon Brown apologised to that racist woman for calling her racist.*
Sometimes politicians should just tell the truth and say "well, she was saying racist things, I assumed she meant them".

CZ - I don't know you, I don't know if you're racist. But you are a fellow traveller.

Ninfan - politically? Not a clue. Financially? Brexit will probably be good for me (though not so much for many others and I will be culturally poorer, probably less secure (Northumbria Police) and definitely a little sad for the demise of a force for good - but life goes on and money talks)

*to be fair she may not have been racist, just saying racist things.

On the racist thing, it all went wrong when Gordon Brown apologised to that racist woman for calling her racist

True, along with staying out of the € that was one thing Grodi got right. She expressed "bigoted" views.

Multiculturalism ... okay ... Let's try this.

How many languages can you speak fluently?

BREXIT voters are still expecting clarity from a gang of absolute shysters you couldn’t trust to do **** anything, it has emerged.
Many Brexiters say that although they are still happy they voted to Leave, they now want the untrustworthy gang of lying bastards behind the referendum to ‘give them some clarity on it’.

Donna Sheridan said: “I just want to know exactly what it is I’ve voted for. Is that too much to ask for from a gang of totally self-serving careerist politicians?

“I mean, there’s no way Neil Hamilton would get behind something he didn’t fully understand.”

Martin Bishop said: “Just because these people would have told us measles was caused by ghosts if it served their personal agenda, doesn’t mean they don’t have a detailed plan for the most complex economic shift in recent political history.

“Look at Boris. That’s the face of a man who knows.”

😆

How many languages can you speak fluently?

0.9 in my case.

That's more than a lot of Leave voters if the Internet is anything to go by.

a huge victory by the [/s]National Socialists[s]Brexiteeers

Far be it for me to defend the Nazis, but they showed *massive* commitment to uniting Europe under one Government and also to moving large numbers of workers between states.

Sitting in a bar next to a group of American ladies. They are discussing getting visas for Switzerland and Austria .
Imagine having to get a visa for each American state if you travelled to the US.
I really hope we don't ever have to go through all that.

Try establishing a company in India or China our new preferred markets - gave me my first grey hairs

The only country I can recall ever needing a visa to visit was India, and they took so long over it that I wasn't able to go.

Imagine having to get a visa for each American state if you travelled to the US.
I really hope we don't ever have to go through all that.

its a piece of paper, why make life harder than you need to?

[img] [/img]

Everything i hear only reinforces that getting a second passport was a good idea.

And anyway who is paying for all the new passports in 2019?? I am assuming that Jamby will be happy to pay for my new blue passport as the current burgundy one is rendered invalid?

We have 350 million a week to cover the costs 🙄

The EU will negotiate the best for the EU, it's what they should be doing and I can hold no bitterness or anger towards that.

Yup and there is a mutual benefit to free trade, good for them and good for us. Their arguments for restricting it are politcal not economic. There will be a cost to them of no free trade, they maybe prepared to oay that cost in order to try and protect "the project" / their very cushy high pay low tax EU Commission/Parliament jobs. The interesting owrt will be the interaction of EU member states who have much to lose.

Theresa May hit the nail on the head today, she said those that signed the various treaties have ignored the concerns of the people and there has been an adverse reaction. Politicans shouod learn from that.

Our arguments for leaving the EU are political not economic.

(Inasmuch as there are any arguments, as opposed to sound bites and slogans)

those that signed the various treaties have ignored the concerns of the people and there has been an adverse reaction. Politicans shouod learn from that.

oh but they have, from le penn, to farage and the brexiteer MPs: theyve learnt its much easier to blame EU treaties and brussles bureaucrats than their own incompetence for the inequalities of society, and the easliy lead swallow it whole