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Voldemort's wife can go do one. Unity schmunity.
Another famous call for 'unity':
The National Government will therefore regard it as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our state. Standing above estates and classes, it will bring back to our people the consciousness of its racial and political unity and the obligations arising therefrom. It wishes to base the education of German youth on respect for our great past and pride in our old traditions. It will therefore declare merciless war on spiritual, political and cultural nihilism. Germany must not and will not sink into Communist anarchy.
We have a peogressive tax system. The rich pay a hogher percentage of their income in direct and indirect taxes and they oay a substantially higher amount. Bosses and middle managers have been able to pay themselves more by cutting costs due to oitsoircing peoduction to the lowest cost provider. This trend is now clearly being seen in middle management jobs which are going abroad too.
There will be no unity until Remainers accept they lost the Referendum as their (weak) arguments where rejected and there will be no unity until the insults stop, which from this thread we can see will be no time soon.
Variois securitynexoerrs queing upmto state the obvious. Shengen is a security disaster.
There will be no unity until Remainers accept they lost the Referendum as their (weak) arguments where rejected and there will be no unity until the insults stop, which from this thread we can see will be no time soon.
Yes, misinformation and downright lies trumped weak arguments unfortunately. The insults will go on for a long time and I for one will continue with my view that we should remain part of the EU. Of course that makes no difference at all to what the future holds, but that is normal. We have no power other than to occasionally vote for which particular flavour of incompetents we elect to office.
Variois securitynexoerrs queing upmto state the obvious. Shengen is a security disaster.
Only in so much as the border between England and Wales is a security disaster, or between Oxfordshire and Bucks. Should we have tightened up security measures between Leeds/Bucks and that there London in 2005? Could have saved a lot of lives.
Prove that border control prevents terrorists from travelling and you have an argument.
Show me how local we have to go before this anti Schengen argument becomes logical.
#Scared
EDIT: They're only insults if they're untrue and disparaging to the recipient.
DOUBLE EDIT: I personally find they way that some of the guff is put up here and presented as fact is rather insulting to the intelligence of the majority of 9 year olds. #FACT
Insults?
Like those in the Daily Mail?
And in the meantime, let's put the tuition fees up, without telling anyone, not even the DFE website.
Can we build a wall round Kent to keep Farage away? Make him pay for it too. Sounds like a win-win.
There'll be no unity from me until we have some sort of plan that doesn't look like a complete bit of a mess.
Yes, misinformation and downright lies trumped weak arguments unfortunately. The insults will go on for a long time and I for one will continue with my view that we should remain part of the EU.
I'm sorry, but you have to be spectacularly ( willingly ) blind not to see that almost all of the remain case was utter bollocks. Lie upon lie upon lie. See also below.
The weakness of the arguments for remain were weak because there was no love whatsoever for the EU in the UK.
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/economic-growth-confounds-warnings-of-remain-campaign-ptbtd3nkh ]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/economic-growth-confounds-warnings-of-remain-campaign-ptbtd3nkh[/url]
Variois securitynexoerrs queing upmto state the obvious. Shengen is a security disaster.
Remind me again when the UK signed up and had open borders with the EU.
I reckon pre schengen it wouldn't be that hard to get from Germany to Italy via France without passing a single border check, there was a point where they didn't even wake up to look at passports when they were manned
Aahh yes the insults must stop
As much as brexies might think this is how you go about creating unity, it really isn't.....
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i'd suggest that the 30 hours taken to get the international warrant for arrest going contributed to the miscreant's ability to skip germany.
perhaps if they further integrated their police forces they could operate more cohesively...
The weakness of the arguments for remain were weak because there was no love whatsoever for the EU in the UK.
No love whatsoever? That explains the landslide victory then.
The weakness of the arguments for remain were weak because there was no love whatsoever for the EU in the UK.
I diagree.
By the way EU taxes include 5-10% VAT on food and full VAT on utilities. The EU has continually tried to erode our low/vat free rates
There will be no unity until Remainers accept they lost the Referendum as their (weak) arguments where rejected and there will be no unity until the insults stop, which from this thread we can see will be no time soon.
But that would mean me accepting that I'm the same sort of hypocrite and snake oil salesman as you and that's never ever going to happen.
perhaps if they further integrated their police forces they could operate more cohesively
Absolutely, the EU should have its own FBI, we should be part of that.
Sadly we are looking to reduce our cooperation with the EU at a time we should be uniting, ISIS must love Brexit 😯
The EU has continually tried to erode our low/vat free rates
and failed, damm it's awful how the EU keeps getting it's own way.
[i]I reckon pre schengen it wouldn't be that hard to get from Germany to Italy via France without passing a single border check, there was a point where they didn't even wake up to look at passports when they were manned [/I]
IME every road had a border post, sometimes you got stopped and sometimes you didn't. I also often went between Germany and Poland, after the wall came down, you had trucks queuing for hours/days and every time I went through it was a full search and investigation.
IME every road had a border post, sometimes you got stopped and sometimes you didn't.
yes and hundreds of forest tracks and roads with nothing, I remember some having a little hut with a tourist stamp so you could tick some walking tour boxes
I agree on insults and accepting results. But that does not mean accepting BS as fact. This thread is crammed full of it which is what leads to the insults. The problem needs to be addressed at source though
The problem needs to be addressed at source though
That would require a trip to Slovakia, or Slovenia, or wherever, and having a word with Jamba's mum about what he's up to in his bedroom when he's supposed to be doing what a normal teenage lad does, instead of making up fake news.
i'd suggest that the 30 hours taken to get the international warrant for arrest going contributed to the miscreant's ability to skip germany.
Although allowing him to remain wandering around freely after rejecting his asylum claim probably contributed to his ability to skip Germany too. As undoubtedly did the failure of Italian officials to deport him previously.
The rich pay a hogher percentage of their income in direct and indirect taxes
Smells like bullshit to me.
Let's do some Google searching…
"While the richest fifth of society paid 34.8 per cent of their overall income in tax last year, those at the bottom of the income scale lost 37.8 per cent of their income to the taxman.
This is a wider gap than last year, when the difference was 2.3 per cent."
Links to the ONS raw data in the article.
Looks like you're not alone in thinking that the low paid live in some kind of low tax nirvana though:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/16/british-public-wrong-rich-poor-tax-research
and that is before we get to all those nice tax breaks you get when you are richer, higher pension contributions, that nice CTW scheme, buy to lets etc.
cranberry, you do realise we haven't actually left yet don't you?
The EU, migration and the German market attack - lots of BS flying around.
However the Mirror (the Mirror!) had an interesting piece. Try reading the whole way through.
There will be no unity until[s] Remainers [/s] Brexies accept they [s]lost the Referendum[/s] can't do Brexit as their (weak) [s]arguments where rejected [/s] policies don't work and there will be no unity until the insults stop, which from this thread we can see will be no time soon.
FTFY
Unity?
At no point in my lifetime have either the Conservative or Labour Party had "unity" on this issue, that's why we had a referendum after all… because of the deep disunity in one of them.
Why would the "whole country" find "unity" over how we deal with the rest of Europe, when it isn't even possible to have a couple of hundred MPs of the same party united on the issue.
Let me be clear.
I opposed Brexit before the referendum was called.
I opposed Brexit after the referendum was called - in fact I didn't support having a referendum as it is not the British way, not the democratic way.
I opposed Brexit during the campaign.
I opposed Brexit at the ballot box.
I opposed Brexit as the referendum results came in.
I opposed Brexit after the referendum result.
I opposed Brexit as the Brexies tried to steal British democracy by insisting that the parliamentary process was overridden - to be fair a good number of Brexies objected to overriding our democracy too.
I opposed Brexit now as we see the Brexies in charge squabbling with each other, and May sounding ominously less democratic by the day.
I will oppose Brexit if A50 is triggered.
I will oppose Brexit during any negotiations that may occur.
I will oppose Brexit if we leave the EU.
And I will continue, if that event occurs, to oppose Brexit even afterwards.
I will never show unity with people who are trying to wreck Britain.
What he said ^^^^^
Yep
Even better if you read it in an Ian Paisley style
What IGM said.
I have a real problem with the Daily Mail/write it on a bus so it must be true brigade demanding my unquestioning support.
(Although I did LOL at ninfans comment 🙂 )
Actually ninfan, I can do a decent Rev Paisley impression (but growing up in Glasgow meant I had to be careful where I used it).
You've given me an idea...
Again, what IGM said.
thats a lot of posing....
I'm with igm too.
Let's face whatever we do, if we take a hard in/out decision roughly half the population are going to be pissed off. I personally don't find that an acceptable outcome.
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/may-confirms-brexit-is-now-a-religious-cult-20161222119379 ]full David Koresh![/url]
+1 igm, though I am open to persuasion. It just requires someone to come up with a plan that isn't just a bit of a mess wrapped up in a vacuous slogan. However I anticipate the publication in february of something that equates to:
1. Invoke Article 50.
2. Get the best Red White and Blue plan to Make Britain Great Again.
3. er, that's it.
I've been waiting 6 months now, and have heard nothing but soundbites that make the politicians sound like they haven't even begun to grasp the issues. I guess that's what happens when you surround yourself with yes-men and brown-nosers. Too busy playing at westminster cliques to bother with running the country.
Given that the government website is full of detail on brexshit - for and against etc, i think the criticism of them is a bit misplaced.
Its easy enough to read.
Wot igm said.
I will NEVER reconcile with the far-right filth who are dragging all that is good about this country into the gutter.
Wonder whether the UK will be in financial ruin before Trump manages to trigger WW3 and put us all in a smouldering nuclear holocaust ruin?
Maybe i should ride my bike more before i have radiation sickness and or no money..
Wonder whether the UK will be in financial ruin before Trump manages to trigger WW3 and put us all in a smouldering nuclear holocaust ruin?
Maybe i should ride my bike more before i have radiation sickness and or no money..
What tyres for Nuclear Holocaust?
@muddy, could not have been a more cross political spectrum movement although looking at this you'd assume it was left wing lead. I doff my cap to all our Friends in the North and Midlands and Wales who got the job done 🙂
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Strong on sentiment, devoid of any actual reason. A classic post from you on this issue.
And the Troll laughed "ho ho ho"
If we do hard Brexit 50% of the population will be unhappy.
If we don't leave at all 50% of the population will be unhappy.
Our politicians have done a great job of dividing us.
Mrs M. says we need to "unite and move forward". I'm sure she has a plan. Doesn't she?
We don't need to unite we need a break up now. I'm with the Free Yorkshire sect. Marry Christmas to all but only if you are in Yorkshire?
Blah blah, whinge...
...I will oppose Brexit during any negotiations that may occur.
I will oppose Brexit if we leave the EU.
And I will continue, if that event occurs, to oppose Brexit even afterwards.
Why should I/we brexiteers bother listening to you or trying to be reasonable and come to an accommodation that takes into account your concerns and wishes then?
We held a vote, the majority voted to leave, you don't like that, fine, we get that and would be willing to work with you to be reasonable rather than rubbing your noses in it (like Labour did with diversity, remember?) so us brexiteers are sitting there saying let's negotiate with the EU in order try and come to a mutually beneficial arrangement on travel and work arrangements etc.
But from what you've said above you're not interested in compromise, you have no interest in taking our point of view into account, of listening to concerns on immigration or freedom of establishment. So why the **** should we bother trying to work with you when you're just going to act like a selfish and petulant child who is in a strop because they have had their toy taken away.
If that's your attitude then screw you, we might as well go for hard Brexit and damn the consequences, just to teach you a lesson!
We held a vote, the majority voted to leave, you don't like that, fine, we get that and would be willing to work with you to be reasonable rather than rubbing your noses in it (like Labour did with diversity, remember?) so us brexiteers are sitting there saying let's try and come to an arrangement on travel and work arang,nets
Once you know what the plan is, let us know and we'll decide whether to support. It's a shame that the leading forces behind Brexit have abandoned you now. That must smart a bit.
If sitting there hoping that it's really us lot who are crying into our Turkey dinners over the outcome of the referendum helps assuage your feelings of butthurt, then please feel free to crack on 😉
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IGM +1
Luckily britex has been cancelled.
you have no interest in taking our point of view into account, of listening to concerns on immigration or freedom of establishment
That assumes your brexopath agenda of bigotry and xenophobia is a justifiable point of view to hold in the first instance. It isn't.
slowoldman - MemberIf we do hard Brexit 50% of the population will be unhappy.
If we don't leave at all 50% of the population will be unhappy.
Jamba, of all people, nailed it earlier in the thread, it's not 48/52. Brexit of any sort will satisfy less than 50% of the people- the hard brexiteers will be dissatisfied with a soft brexit, the people who believed the Leave campaign will be dissatisfied by a hard brexit. Only a subset of the 52 will be happy with either brexit.
It might not be a justifiable point of view nipper but IT IS the majority one (sadly) so (equally sadly) we have to run with it and make th best of a bad job. We are a largely xenophobic and at times racist society. Welcome to Brexshit Britain
No, we don't. Replace the wording with 'Brexshit' and you get the gist.
[img][url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/564/31474555120_fae135cc05_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/564/31474555120_fae135cc05_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/PXijFs ]C0Z6J0gW8AEw9ar[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/82598458@N05/ ]jamesanderson2010[/url], on Flickr[/img]
All this "we have to run with it" bunkem. If we'd just had a referendum and UK had voted to hang gays, you think I'd be sitting here sayin "we lost but best just get on with it"??
Like ****.
nah its only the 17million that voted out will be unhappy if brexshit were cancelled another nearly 17 million happy, the other 30 million will be 'meh'
and as old age will be claiming many of the outies it'll all be fine 😉
First ninfan, there was no whinging just a statement of my position. I don't expect you to like it, but the Brexies give us no choice.
As you will be aware the UK narrowly voted to leave the EU, but said nothing about the single market / economic area / 4 freedoms etc because they weren't in the voting slip - except we know from the vote that at least 48% of folk who voted want to keep them because that's inherent in staying in the EU. But even on June 23rd that was a minimum.
There is no mandate for hard Brexit. Sorry.
So stop trying to ram it down people's throats.
If that's your attitude then screw you, we might as well go for hard Brexit and damn the consequences, just to teach you a lesson!
It won't teach me a lesson. Personally I'll be fine either way. But it will hurt plenty of people who are closer to the breadline.
but said nothing about the single market / economic area / 4 freedoms etc because they weren't in the voting slip
But you weren't arguing any of those points were you? You made it perfectly clear that you were, and would continue to, reject Brexit in its entirety.
There is no mandate for hard Brexit. Sorry.
So stop trying to ram it down people's throats
There is, categorically, no longer a mandate to remain in the EU, so why on earth do you insist on trying to force it down people's throats?
If that's your attitude then screw you, we might as well go for hard Brexit and damn the consequences, just to teach you a lesson!
I found that spite was never the best motivation for placing an X on the voting slip.
What'll you do when we're still attached to EU in some way, shape or form? Cry into your Turkey?
Ninfan - I do. Because the Brexies are insisting on hard Brexit. Stuff 'em.
Come back to the table, talk about how we're going to keep freedom of movement of labour, full single market membership and the ECHR AND ECJ. Do that and we can talk.
Otherwise leave. Feel free to leave the UK please.
The thing is when you're involved in a divorce it doesn't mean you have to accept it. Neither now, later nor ever.
And you certainly don't have to 'unite' behind a cause you don't agree with, even though the Brexiters need us Remainers, cause on the whole they aren't of the ability to sort it out.
But as others have said, bollox as presently you don't look capable of organising a piss-up in a brewery.
Remainers. You don't have have to accept result. In 2020 and thereafter you can support a political party committed to re-joining the EU. As has been proven even a one man band can achieve the truely remarkable.
Remainers. You don't have have to accept result
Certainly as there are a few hurdles the government have to jump before we even start leaving, one of which has is to pass a bill through the commons.
And the Lords mikewsmith.
And Jamba if we can get enough disunity going it will, like it or not, slow the process down and we won't have left by 2020 and no pro-Brexit party will have a chance at that GE.
Here's to disunity.
Remainers. You don't have have to accept result. In 2020 and thereafter you can support a political party committed to re-joining the EU. As has been proven even a one man band can achieve the truely remarkable.
Jamba, you do realise that Brexit is a one way process and most probably can never be reversed. after 40 years of British lies and special deals De Gaulle has been proven right.
But from what you've said above you're not interested in compromise
You have no concept of what "compromise" means. Say, gods forbid, I'm your wife and I'm fed up with you going out riding all the time. I propose smashing up all your bikes; would you accept only smashing up half your bikes as a reasonable compromise? Or would you rather negotiate going out a bit less? A "soft" brexit isn't a compromise, it still screws us over.
Most of the reasons I've seen for Brexit can be fixed without leaving the EU. Immigration, for example; the EU doesn't dictate our immigration policy, we do. The referendumb has shown that a lot of people are dissatisfied with our immigration policy, a sensible course of action would be to review this, surely?
If that's your attitude then screw you, we might as well go for hard Brexit and damn the consequences, just to teach you a lesson!
Yeah, stick it to the man, run the country into the ground, that'll learn 'em!! That's exactly the sort of shitwit thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.
it's not 48/52. Brexit of any sort will satisfy less than 50% of the people- the hard brexiteers will be dissatisfied with a soft brexit, the people who believed the Leave campaign will be dissatisfied by a hard brexit. Only a subset of the 52 will be happy with either brexit.
Aye, this is the crux of the problem. For all the "people have spoken" horseshit, if you look at the people who voted remain, those who voted leave, those who didn't vote and those who couldn't vote, those four groups of people are as close to 25% each as makes no statistical difference. The only way you can appease the majority of the population is to remain in the EU but to address all the main points people cited as reasons for wanting to leave. Because as I've just said, we can fix most if not all of those things without giving up our EU membership.
The one thing the referendum has shown beyond any reasonable argument is that we're a country divided. That right there, front and centre, is what needs addressing and dealing with. Neither a brexit nor a "hard" remain (ie, changing nothing) will resolve this; quite the opposite, it'll drive the wedge deeper between people.
Quite why this wasn't the conclusion drawn and the people at the top are hell bent on driving over a cliff I've no idea. Well, I have suspicions, but they're not pleasant and do us no favours.
Merry Christmas Jambalaya
mrmo
Of course Jamba knows it's a one way process, which is why he's hellbent of pushing it through.
And why the hardline Brexiters are also wanting out asap, they don't GAS of what happens after we've instigated A50, as once we've done that they know we're out.
This is why there's no plan, because they don't care what will occur and what state the UK will be in, 'cos we're out.
Morning. Can't bring myself to argue about the EU on Christmas Day. Best wishes everyone one.
Sat in a&e, my 18 yo lad managed to slice his hand open with a knife, the one that came in his new tool kit, as he was cutting thru a tiewrap...
That's one for the scrapbook 😐
'Use Brexit to steal UK trade says Trump aid' ref front page of tomorrow's Times. Good job we have a special relationship.
As Osbourne said (quite rightly) on Marr its much more likley banks will go to New York than Paris or Frankfurt etc. I'd take a job/transfer to NYC over either France or Germany for a lower headline salary as less tax plus a far more dynamic business environment. Far more able to "get the job done" and just better all round.
Business is business. No favours asked or granted. London is full of economically mobile people in all sectors who choose to be there. Not least all the Europeans who don't want to work at home.
Well, sort of sounds OK, except the moving to America thing.
So is economic activity leaving the UK for the US because of Brexit better or worse than economic activity leaving the UK for the rest of the EU?
Or is it just bad either way?
Vultures circling?