[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[s]I dont talk politics in the real world as its just a nodding club- none of my friends are ...what is the politest word i can use here ??- not left wing/humanitarian.Basically I dont hang around with the amoral except on here 😉

[/s]

I have no friends in the real world 😉

TBH on reflection it was amongst the daftest things I have said on here. I retract the point as it is only really in STW we get this polarisation/lack of consistency

@airtragic

it belies the anti-Englishness that a lot of the vote is founded on.

Well I'm pro EU for all its faults, yet want an end to the Union with Scotland. How's that fit into the survey?
The 'Scottish Question' isn't going to go away and needs to be addressed by the whole UK at some point. If Brexit does happen, and the SNP Gov't do demand a second referendum, maybe it should be asked of the whole UK "should the Act of Union be repealed?"
On that note, how does that affect Wales & N.I. ?
The act of Union was signed by England, yet the Laws in Wales Act predates it etc.

maybe it should be asked of the whole UK "should the Act of Union be repealed?"

Maybee we should ask the entire EU if the UK stays- wont happen and the reasons [as discussed on the scottish thread] remain.

I am pro both, but Europe is closer as I am skeptical.

@airtragic

it belies the anti-Englishness that a lot of the vote is founded on.

Any evidence or links?

Nope, hence the prefix "I think" 😉

However, born in Kent to Scottish parents, lived there till age 2, moved to Glasgow area and hence went to school with a slightly non-regulation accent. So I know that a significant section of the populace get anti-English sentiment with their mother's milk. I'm not saying it's the sole driver for indy, or that it's a factor for everyone, but [u]I think[/u] it's a bigger one than people care to admit.

Can everyone prefix their posts with "IN", "OUT", "Don't Know" please?

At the rate the pages are racking up, it's hard to remember who is arguing for what position. Some posts aren't immediately obvious what side of the debate they fall on.

I agree airtragic bigots are present in equal proportion wherever people are present. For me I want away from the Westminster government in part because I think Scotland is best governed by those who live there. I am also likely to vote remain as I think the EU will offer better protection of workers rights, human rights than any UK government I can foresee (sorry Mr Corbyn you're not going to win ) in the future. The EU referendum is search for the lesser of two evils.

JY, England has as much right to demand a referendum on the Union as Scotland does. Factor in the pre existing Acts about Wales/England, and N.I.'s status towards England, and the UK and I would ask why should those Nation's/regions not have a voice in an 'English' referendum on the Act of Union.
If Scots Nat are going to keep demanding referenda after referenda, then it isn't beyond thought that the rest of the UK demand a voice in whether that Union is worth the trouble to them. That would possibly mean automatic ejection from the EU of course, depending on which entity was denoted as the Successor State. If England votes to leave the Union, will Wales still be connected politically? If so, would that be the successor state? I've no idea, but it's an interesting exercise.

will Wales still be connected politically?

Yes Wales is not a separate nation, only Scotland is.

Was avoiding this thread, but found this amusing:

EU - 28 countries, population 750m

Commonwealth - 53 Countries, pop 2.1 billion

you really think that we shouldn't care about 1/3 of the worlds population, and the industrial, scientific, trading and cultural opportunities that access to and relations with that market offers us?

And just how many of those 2.1bn require our first world products and services?

Mefty, so in that scenario Wales would be part of any 'English' referendum then? So.. should 'England' (and Wales) vote to dissolve the Act of Union then would the UK cease to exist? There could be made the argument that England & Wales are a United Kingdom and should be seen as the Successor State.
Its not likely I admit, but its interesting.

junkyard
Very few folk have the same view on both unions - I think THM Is the only pro person on both unions but there may be others.

I do also.

JY, England has as much right to demand a referendum on the Union as Scotland does

*Scotland would keep the pound, EU , Security council etc,

FB-ATB - Member
Can everyone prefix their posts with "IN", "OUT", "Don't Know" please

"OUT"

Of course Wales is a separate nation you halfwit!

England has as much right to demand a referendum on the Union as Scotland does.

what's with the out camp, "there could be another vote because if we vote out the EU will come a crawling cap in hand and we could get a much better deal". Smacks a bit of desperation to me, you can vote out and it won't be a disaster because..... So the out camp is made up half kippers and half Im not sures 😕

KB, that was my point - could that be done (theoretically)?
Wales & England are tied by various Acts, I don't know what legally joins N.I. to England, if there is any such Act.
If England, Wales,N.I. decide to do such it would dissolve the Union but which would be deemed the Successor State?
All this is because the Scots Nats are whipping up the 'England will take us out of Europe' angle yet ignoring the point that Euroscepticism is roughly similar in both Countries.
What would happen if England/Wales vote narrowly to leave, yet Scotland votes heavily to stay & tips the result to stay? Would rUK accept that?

Wales is indeed a separate Nation, but one tied to England through many Acts and Laws.

[quote=muddydwarf ]What would happen if England/Wales vote narrowly to leave, yet Scotland votes heavily to stay & tips the result to stay?I've been wondering that too.

I don't understand that question. If Scotland doesn't vote to leave the UK, it stays in, possibly on its own with nae mates - like Serbia in Yugoslavia. Whoever leaves, leaves. theres not a successor state because the UK still exists (just smaller).

The U.K. is not a federation of states, it is a single state.

I refer to what would happen within the UK if the result (stay) is as a result of Scottish voting. Sturgeon was adamant that all regions of the UK should vote OUT in order for it to stand, should the majority in England and Wales vote narrowly to leave and the Scottish vote tips the result the other way, how will that play out across the UK.

[quote=konabunny ]I don't understand that question. If Scotland doesn't vote to leave the UK, it stays in, possibly on its own with nae mates - like Serbia in Yugoslavia. Whoever leaves, leaves. theres not a successor state because the UK still exists (just smaller).
The U.K. is not a federation of states, it is a single state.
Aye, but let's say it's a Remain vote by 51:49 in the UK as a whole and the Scottish vote was something like 65:35 so that it was only the difference in the Scottish vote that swung the overall decision. Do you think that would be accepted in rUK?

I was just wondering what the consequences might be.

Scotroutes
I've been wondering that too.

Same here. If the vote is close, this is a distinct possibility. I think this is a result the SNP will not be too unhappy with. Division is good. They will milk the fact that Cameron ruled out their proposal for all the parts of the UK to vote out before this were to happen, by saying "tough titty, the UK voted to stay in", stand back and watch the faeces hit the fan.

I would prefer to see the SNP campaign more positively to show what the EU does for us all, rather than remind us of the repercussions of an out vote. ie indy2

Ashtray, which is where my question about the Act of Union comes in.
Should rUK feel it doesn't serve their interests anymore what would the process be?

Bugged, I do apologise - bloody autocorrect called you ashtray when I meant Ath. Gray.
Sorry, I do apologise!

I believe, just like getting a tory govt that all the pro unionists would rejoice at the democratic process 😉
My opinion, mainly because dave wants to stay and keep the union he will argue it was a vote for and off the entire UK - like a general election result- and what everyone votes for - irrespective of nation [ principality] applies to the entire UK

I suspect the UKIP ers and little englanders will be furious that the democratic deficit is working against them this time - I can see why tbh- and it will be a rough ride for a while

Euroscepticism is roughly similar in both Countries

Don't worry, I have been called worse muddy.

In all honesty, I believe that the UK and the EU are attempts to serve people who have a sense of togetherness however flawed. I am not for kicking people out of any union.

If your analogy is that people in rUK may wish to kick out Scotland if it does not serve THEIR interest then that is a union I want no part of. It is a shame if people think that way, but I don't think we are there yet.

I thought we had had the (once every two year until we've won and then never again) Scottish referendum. Isn't the current one about Europe?

Well if Britain votes itself out of the EU I am going to think very hard about suicide.

There is no way we can afford to buy a house in which we'd like to live in Britain but we have just got to the point where we could buy a small place abroad and still have a small income from our investments here.

Leaving the EU will make our plans so much harder to achieve.

If this is the case I can't see much of a future.

Cmon Julian - the world will still continue to turn, the air will taste as sweet and night will follow day, irrespective of what happens. Lots to enjoy

Politics is just a sideshow to keep us entertained and appalled and to keep the gravy train drivers busy.

Well, many people in Scotland want to leave the UK because it doesn't serve their interests, why shouldn't people in other parts of the UK feel the same? No one can kick out the other but either can leave anytime they wish. My question is, should England and Wales & Northern Ireland choose to do so together, and remain in a Union, then what would the ramifications be?
It isn't going to happen, I'm just interested in the legal/political possibilities.

I think that greater integration in the EU has effectively brought the shit we rein on the Middle East too close to home for many people's comfort. We used to think we could conduct ourselves as we wish with impudence in the Middle East. There were many barriers before the repercussions were felt here.
The EU has brought this close to home which IMO is no bad thing. Without it we would feel content if war broke out between France and Germany. "It would be happening so far away"
Ultimately, Is life so bad in the EU?. I reckon it is a lot better than hopping from pallet to pallet to get to your muddy tent somewhere in Northern France.

JulianA - life goes on, don't fret so much.

Well, many people in Scotland want to leave the UK because it doesn't serve their interests, why shouldn't people in other parts of the UK feel the same? No one can kick out the other but either can leave anytime they wish. My question is, should England and Wales & Northern Ireland choose to do so together, and remain in a Union, then what would the ramifications be?

they could do this assuming all parts vote first to leave then secondly to re unionise together. Whatever it is it wont be the UK and scotland - despite being a sole country will , legally , be the uk

Again you are really saying can we kick scotland out and the answer is no you can leave the union as can anyone else and then do whatever the hell you like but you cannot be the uk or the rUK if this unlikely scenario occurs.

@ julianA there is always a solution and plenty of parts of the UK are cheap to live and many of them are very nice areas with plenty to offer.I can shy you would be annoyed if your plans dont materialise but new ones will come along either way. Please dont get that desperate and if you do talk to folk- I assume it's said to show the strength of feeling rather than real. if its the later please talk to someone.

@teamhurtmore and @muddydwarf

You obviously didn't really read my post.

I / we can't afford to buy a house anywhere I want to live in Britain so it really is that bad. Life does not go on in the way you suggest.

Renting is not an option for us in old(er) age therefore we need to buy something somewhere. With our current means this will need to be somewhere other than Britain.

So if Britain votes itself out of Europe that might be the stark choice for me.

Thanks junkyard but there is nowhere I want to live in this country more than somewhere in Europe. It's as simple as that.

It look pretty bleak for me if Britain leaves the EU.

@Julian there is a scenario which says on uk exit we prosper whilst EU stagnates and/or collapses falling Greek default and contagion to Spain and Italy. In that case you have much stronger £ vs € and much lower property prices in Europe. A stronger UK gives you more choices. The EU will remain wide open to UK purchasers. Portugal has a deal where you can live tax free for 10 years if you require there.

JY post a UK exit SNP may call a referendum but it won't be binding like last time, like the Leave/Remain now last September was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Perhaps the SNP should have played the campaign differently, provided some answers to key questions and made more of the possibility of a UK EU split.

@ath don't see your close to home logic at all. France's problems stem from their overly soft approach domestically and an aggressive population segment from the Maghreb. Belgium are per capita the most extemist and they have never really featured in the Middle East

Well then Julian, why not leave now? Sorry if I'm not understanding your situation but its only politics, it doesn't stop anyone from moving to another country if they so wish.

muddydwarf
Well, many people in Scotland want to leave the UK because it doesn't serve their interests, why shouldn't people in other parts of the UK feel the same?

Think how you wish, however I have argued tooth and nail against the self interested. Don't be like them.

Perhaps the SNP should have played the campaign differently, provided some answers to key questions and made more of the possibility of a UK EU split.

As for once in a lifetime the constitutional position is clear but if say Scotland vote 80 /20 to stay and its a 51 vote to leave it will be interesting to see what happens. If holyrood do hold a vote to leave its hard to see how the UK can refuse/ignore this. I am not suggesting this would be simple or nice or friendly or even likely to happen but the tough shit you have to do what england just said is simplistic.

@jambalaya thanks but I'm really worried about losing the automatic right to live and work abroad.

Sure we could probably still afford to etc but without the right so to do it would be a pain.

Actually sometimes I think my life is falling apart sometime soon anyway.

I understand Julian but there are still nice affordable places here if not quite exactly what you want.

If you want to talk outside STW my e-mail is in profile

We all feel like life can be a struggle form time time to time but there can reach a point where thinking this is the issue rather than what is actually happening I dont know which is the case with you but if you want to talk my e-mail is available.

[quote=JulianA ]@jambalaya thanks but I'm really worried about losing the [b]automatic[/b] right to live and work abroad.People manage to live and work abroad outwith the EU - and managed before the EU.

Thanks junkyard but what I want is the right to live abroad in a country of my choice.

I really love Picardie / Pas de Calais / Normandie and if it's the choice between one of those or somewhere cheap in Britain I'll take the overdose, thanks.

Thanks for trying, though.