Forum menu
Freedom of movement is unacceptable.
On the contrary, it's both positive and a prerequisite.
Based on what you heard? really?
the only reason they came to the UK was tariff free access and poor labour protection.
I thought Nissan also appreciated the skilled and motivated workforce. Am I wrong?
Looks like a lot of people are going to be disappointed.
The Leavers are not going to get to re build the Empire and the UK Will still be linked to the EU In one form or the other.
And the Remainers won't be part of the EU.
Nice mess, well done to some selfish politicians who put their egos above the need of the people they are supposed to represent and serve.
Nissan realised that this whole Will take years to sort out. They have plenty of time to build their new model and make a decision in 5 years time.
I thought Nissan also appreciated the skilled and motivated workforce. Am I wrong?
They drive their workforce very hard indeed. They're well paid, but not mine worker well paid. At the time they moved up here there was nowt else going, shipbuilding was well on the way out and I think we were left with two mines: wearmouth and vane tempest. Sunderland airfield was a prime site with good access to the docks at Jarrow and great road links. By "skilled" I take it you mean "can assemble some duplo to a design" (the recruitment tests are pitched at that sort of level)?
Good point Chris.
Lose/lose.
Nissan realised that this whole Will take years to sort out. They have plenty of time to build their new model and make a decision in 5 years time.
And therein lies the truth. The plant is modular so not integral to the large shed it happens to sit in. It's not like a steelworks. 5 years is more than enough time to build a new shed in somewhere like Marseilles or Barcelona and move all the bits.
we could well end up in a situation where a super soft brexit is being thrown out by the hard line brexiteers (this why mrs mayhem is in the court of appeal)
[img] 
[/img]
Mike the people who voted Leave want out ASAP. Speak to some.
Have done Jamba. Remarkably wide range of opinions. Yours is just one.
Others include:
I just wanted to shake things up a bit
I would never have voted leave if I thought it might happen
I didn't realise it would cost me money
The papers never told us the truth before the vote
Actually I find very few "hard Brexit asap" types.
The politicians are afraid of the press barons.
Most people I know don't seem to mind anymore.
And if you look at how many people are registered on the forum and how many people contribute to this thread, the apathy about the whole thing is obvious.
Others include:
I don't want ever closer political union
I want to make it easier to bring immigrants in from Commonwealth countries
I want us to show the EU we are serious about wanting reform
I want us to fund our NHS instead of sending money to Brussels
I want all the Eastern Europeans to go home
I want to show the government who's boss
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38324146
Meanwhile, UK Brexit Secretary David Davis told MPs on Wednesday that the UK's Brexit plan was still being worked on and a lot of research had to be done before it was ready.
Perhaps it would have been more responsible to do this [i]before[/i] putting it to a vote?
Just a thought.
They can have as long a wish list as they like. Most of what the leavers wish for is simply not possible. We have no bargaining chips
alice in wonderland again
They can have as long a wish list as they like.
The point is, they all have different, and contradictory, lists, but some seem to lack the political nouse to realise this, or more likely, realise it but dare not admit it. Those Leavers who say that all Leave voters want the same things to happen as a result of the "win" are either myopic or deceitful.
And strangely enough, the winners will be the ones loosing more.
Go you!
Heard from David Davies yesterday.
I am sure Mrs May is delighted to be able to skip the dinner and return home. The meeting is a 1 day affair with the dinner tacked on at the end and being used to discuss EU's stance on Brexit. Mrs Kay will hold a press conference after the days business.
And therein lies the truth. The plant is modular so not integral to the large shed it happens to sit in. It's not like a steelworks. 5 years is more than enough time to build a new shed in somewhere like Marseilles or Barcelona and move all the bits.
I seem to remember one of those fascist newspapers we have claiming that Jaguar/Landrover are going to stay in the UK. They are for now, but not without a back up plan in the form of a brand new factory currently being built in the Czech republic.
@Squidlord indeed, thats why we where so glad to see the back of Cameron and Osbourne. Also from Davies's perspective saying they where "still working on it" is the perfect excuse for leaving publication until late February a few weeks before A50
@igm people voted Leave to end freedom of movement (amongst other things).
an admission that prominent Leavers like him didnt have a clue what they intended to do if they won, because it was all about ego....from Davies's perspective saying they where "still working on it" is [s]the perfect excuse[/s]
what a sad way to drag down a country 🙁
Have done Jamba. Remarkably wide range of opinions. Yours is just one.Others include:
I just wanted to shake things up a bit
I would never have voted leave if I thought it might happen
I didn't realise it would cost me money
The papers never told us the truth before the voteActually I find very few "hard Brexit asap" types.
Others include:
I don't want ever closer political union
I want to make it easier to bring immigrants in from Commonwealth countries
I want us to show the EU we are serious about wanting reform
I want us to fund our NHS instead of sending money to Brussels
I want all the Eastern Europeans to go home
I want to show the government who's boss
This is my experience too.
My brother in law (and many of his police colleagues according to him) voted leave as they were angry with Theresa May and though the police would have more money, so more money in their pockets, if they were not sending it to Europe.
[img] 
[/img]
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/15/female-mp-received-death-threats-for-calling-for-ban-on-britain-first ]welcome to Brexit britain[/url]
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/britons-expats-europe-how-brexit-affect-them
and just to throw into the mix
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/15/breitbart-fake-news-right-trump
If the media no longer tells the truth, what hope is there for a functioning democracy?
this is the fear of Leavers
and the reason they want a swift Brexit
once it becomes apparent that the 'negotiations' will be unable to deliver the ridiculous plethora of promises that VL used....
end immigration
more money for services, NHS, ploice, councils, social care, libraries,
more trade
better jobs
higher wages
not being told uncomfortable truths by johnny foreigner
ending the nebulous and pervasive fear of terrorist attacks somehow conflated with EU membership
the right-wing press no longer telling us every day how the EU is ruining their lives
more money in their pockets, better life chances for their kids
Brexit will deliver none of these (infact mostly the opposite) and then people might start to change their mind
after all this is a democracy- you're allowed to- this is what brexiters fear most
May & the Brexiters somehow have to pull it all off before people realise their lives wont be improving
Whenever I hear a report on the news about Brexit and how someone is pointing out the difficulties ahead... they always have a pro Brexit spokesperson disagreeing...this happens so often now all I can visualise is a group of Brexiteers with their fingers in their ears going "mah nah nah..I can't hear you..nah nah nah..I can't hear you".
Clearly the Brexit camp don't believe listening is an important skill in successful negotiations. 😀
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38328388http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38328388 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38328388[/url]
but wasn't the devaluation of the pound meant to be good?
and yes Brexit wasn't the whole picture, just the final straw that broke the company.
@el-bent Ford moved their Transit factory from Southampton to Turkey our EU membership made zero difference. Jaguar/Landrover would have to think about brand impact of being made in the Czech Republic.
Jambalaya, sorry, I was unclear. I meant before a referendum.
For example UKIP has been going for what, 26 years? And didn't generate any practical ideas during this time.
Vote Leave also had no real plan for what should happen next.
All the politicians involved went into this with an extremely cavalier attitude, and we may be paying the price for this for years
Whenever I hear a report on the news about Brexit and how someone is pointing out the difficulties ahead... they always have a pro Brexit spokesperson disagreeing...this happens so often now all I can visualise is a group of Brexiteers with their fingers in their ears going "mah nah nah..I can't hear you..nah nah nah..I can't hear you".
I think this is actually a problem and i am not sure how to deal with it. IF you see coverage of climate change on the BBC, there always try to be impartial by having a denier. Problem is that how do you show a contra position when the majority of those who matter (experts) believe that climate change is real. Should you even acknowledge the contra position??? But that then opens another door, censorship.
Jaguar/Landrover would have to think about brand impact of being made in the Czech Republic.
i doubt there would be any, where are "German" BMWs made?
The reason for no plan / detail is that the rightwingers responsible for this want things that they know are unpalatable to most of the population - like reduced worker and environmental protection. thing is the EU is never going to allow us to undercut them by making stuff cheaper by doing this
Edenvalley Remoaning headlines are worth big ££££ in clickbait. As I said Airbus laid off 1100 people, just 59 in UK. Had we had the 500 layoffs each of France and Germany there would be a Remoaners w@nkfest
BTW did anyone see after agreeing some modest relief for Greece (ie even lower interest rates) the Greeks responded with a Christmas bonus for low income pensioners. As a result the eurozone cancelled the debt relief immediately. The press reiterated that significant debt relief (ie writing off whatvwas due) was politically inpossible for Germany. It's incredible that they won't admit publically what anyone with half a brain knows those "loans" where a giant gift.
It is no use moaning about Brexit until the idea of brexit as a solution to our problems is replaced by something else.
We don't need to disprove it or argue against it as that tends to just make people more set in their ways however illogical. Once the human mind has took in a concept such as religion or Brexit it is very hard for it to be removed as it is the basis of a world view and the brain cannot cope with the hole that is left if it was taken away. The only way to get over Brexit is to create something different and keep repeating it until it becomes the new truth.
I listened to a interesting program about Hitler and how one of the most destructive ideologies that he had was that of destroying states and existing political structures due to the chaos that follows. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/hitlers-world-may-not-be-so-far-away ]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/hitlers-world-may-not-be-so-far-away[/url]
I can see why this appeals to the Neo-cons whom I see as the source of the Brexit/Trump political movement. Revolutionary in nature where one has to destroy everything before it is built up again in perfection.
As I recall, UK spends half what the US does as a percentage of GDP, but it is the UK that enjoys better health.
The quality of US healthcare is streets ahead [b]if[/b] the UK if you have the money. In practical terms they don't have the equivalent of universal healthcare. You can't compare spending oer head and national healthcare as that's not how their sustem works they don't spend equally. Also US is unhealthy not least due to a nationally unhealthy diet and excessive consumption.
@el-bent Ford moved their Transit factory from Southampton to Turkey our EU membership made zero difference. Jaguar/Landrover would have to think about brand impact of being made in the Czech Republic.
They already have a factory in Brazil, so I would say zero impact on their brand.
More nonsense Jamba - in some ways its ahead - in others its well behind. And as you say only if you have the money. The US spends twice as much on healthcare but 1/3 of the population do not have full access to healthcare. Try having Diabetes for example - most diabetics in the states use treatments that were outdated her 20 years ago
child mortality rates are awful.
Jaguar/Landrover would have to think about brand impact of being made in the Czech Republic.
I have to chime in.
Anyone here own an Audi TT? It was made in Gyor, Hungary. Brand impact? what brand impact?
Your VW Polo was made in Spain, your Mondeo/Focus in Belgium and there are a number of South African and US made BMWs around too. Your Merc M class was made in Alabama, your Honda Civic in Swindon and your Toyota Yaris in France.
Added to this, your Rolls Royce has a German built chassis, engine and running gear and is [i]assembled[/i] in the UK. Your Bentley has VW/Audi running gear (again, imported from Europe) and is assembled at Crewe.
To simply state that the potential brand impact for Tata building Land Rovers and Jags overseas might put off customers is to express wilful ignorance about the globalised nature of the car industry. LR have been here before, back in the 1970s when it was confidently stated that Australian British Leyland customers wouldn't bother with Japanese imports and within five years a ninety percent market share was wiped out.
If we go into trade negotiations with the EU armed with blinkers and a false sense of superiority fuelled by some anti-Johnny Foreigner sentiment then we're going to come off worse. We don't own our own manufacturing base anymore, plus our financial institutions are already looking at moving to Europe if we lose our access to the market. What's left? A smattering of low-headcount high tech manufacturers, selling to whom? Or will we simply become a giant call centre farm with low wages and zero skills, staffed by graduates struggling to afford homes priced out of reach of everyone but corporate investors?
child mortality rates are awful.
Doesn't the UK have one of the worst child mortality rates in Europe?
Marginally worse than the average IIRC - whereas the states is more like a third world country
My Prius was made in Japan. It's got Japanese writing on various bits done by the workers assembling it. This is of no value to the discussion, but I thought it was cool.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate ]US is relatively poor compared to other OECD countries[/url] but it's far from a "3rd World Level"
Rest of the World see's Britain more positively after Brexit vote (admires is the word used) whilst EU inc France and Germany see us more negatively and IMO certainly will do so when they realise they'll have to plug the €12bn EU budget black hole. However a whopping 64% of those in the EU think the Referendum result is either positive or makes no difference to how they see the UK.
Strong results globally, in the Commonwealth and in the G20. Get in. 8) 8) 8)
Story in the left of centre/centrist Huffington Post
[img] 
[/img]
[url] http://www.wsj.com/articles/life-expectancy-for-white-americans-declines-1461124861 [/url]
US life expectancy going down, granted complicated but many of the reasons rely on a heathcare system that functions to fix.
Is that survey of the general public or people who actually make decisions, Jam? If the former, then it's a bit pointless no?
@Jamba
So what are we going to export then? Do we know anything about the poll respondents? Can we export "attractiveness" and make money out of it?
What factors improve "attractiveness" for respondents? Low wages and reduced corporation taxes, perhaps? Who pays for this subsidy? What's in it for people who voted Leave?
Jam the rest of the world aren't the poor sods that have to live here with an unopposed tory government and no countries that we can move away to anymore.
As in mrmo's (broken) link, we definitely can't export pink wafer biscuits any more... 🙁
@jamba, in a post truth world where many people are sick and tired of politicians wouldn't you agree that those who are remote from the storm might look on and think, see the people sticking it to the elites?
Whilst those who acutually are in the storm might think f***ing idiots???
@jambayla...can you (or someone else) post links to non UK reports/journalism that coherently explains/demonstrates that Brexit is a good thing for the UK.
I don't want a persoal ideological bit of writing..I want a non UK impartial (if that exists) economical and political discussion proving it's a good thing.
Has to be non UK. If you're in the UK you're not impartial as far as I'm concerned.
So Europeans see a divided Europe as a bad thing and the rest of the isn't really bothered. Now consider why they responded as they did. Was it that they see Europe as weaker and less of a force in global trade so think they'll benefit? Did they see it as Taiwan-China type separation? Do they think Europe will be weaker militarily. Ask people outside what they think and their reasoning for being positive is quite likely because they think it will have a negative impact and they will benefit.
WTO you say, just sign up with them?
Hmm, I hadn't realised this, wonder how many others haven't either...
Even the nuclear option – a hard Brexit followed by reliance on existing World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules – could take years to achieve. The first, and more surmountable, problem is that Britain is a signatory to WTO deals through its membership of the EU.Assuming other WTO members agree to overlook this and transfer existing rights to Britain without seeking to unpick unpopular elements, there is an even bigger problem though. This relates to the import and export quotas shared among EU member states. In the case of lamb, for example, the WTO schedule permits 283,825 tonnes of sheep and goat meat to be imported duty-free into the EU from 14 countries, ranging down to just 100 tonnes from Greenland.
British farmers would need to fight to secure their share of this existing schedule to export into EU and non-EU markets, a fiendishly complicated prospect just in one small agricultural category.
Assuming other WTO members agree to overlook this and transfer existing rights to Britain without seeking to unpick unpopular elements
Why would they do that, and don't forget who we have just told to do one, the EU, who as one of the WTO Quad Nations would again have no interest in giving us an easy time.
Although the WTO is ostensibly democratic, the big boys from the US, Canada, Japan and the EU - known as "the Quad" - rule the roost. One developing country delegate at the 2001 Doha ministerial conference said: "If I speak out too strongly the US will phone my minister. They will twist the story and say I am embarrassing the US. My government will not even ask: "What did he say?" They would just send me a ticket home tomorrow." The Quad meets several times a year to decide policy behind closed doors. Its decisions are then sold to less powerful governments
Welcome to the club of the less powerful governments'.
Welcome to the club of the less powerful governments'.
which then comes down to how badly does spain want Gibraltor or Argentina the Falklands as examples of where politics meets trade.
Consider how close CETAS came to be thrown out because some Belgians weren't happy.
[url= http://http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-unlikely-disrupt-uk-trade-says-wto-director-general-1588422 ]Brexit unlikely to disrupt UK trade, says WTO director-general[/url]
theresa-no-mates 😳
Aside from Britain's diminishing presence in the world
I think this will take quite a toll on May personally and professionally
In the wake of the Brexit vote the level of recorded hate crime rose by 41%. Home Office figures showed a rise in racist or religious abuse incidents recorded by police in England and Wales.Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, says he thinks the rise in recorded hate crime is "quite shocking". He says "most of us thought this kind of attack didn't happen in the way we are seeing it".
Mefty - that was almost 2 months ago. Views may have changed
more recently he said
The WTO chief said it' was hard to know the outcome of Britain's path to exit the EU but negotiating trade deals will be tough."The first thing we need to do is define what a hard Brexit is...I think that the less turbulence you have in this process the better. So if we can maintain the kind of relationship that exists today, so much the better. But that's much easier said than done. It will be a tough negotiation," Azevedo said.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/08/brexit-eu-uk-trade-negotiations-will-be-very-tough-wto-chief.html
Which is making an entirely different point, one is about trade deals, the other WTO membership - one day you will break your duck.
I think this will take quite a toll on May personally and professionally
I'm sure she wouldn't want to have Brexit on her plate but losing the referendum was probably the only was she was ever going to make leader. So, professionally, Brexit has turned May from career also ran to career top dog.
worth a read as a viewpoint from the other side,
mefty - Member
Which is making an entirely different point, one is about trade deals, the other WTO membership - one day you will break your duck.
"As far as the WTO is concerned, we don't come into the picture until those two have decided what the commitments they will have with the other WTO members will be and with each other. Until then, when they come to the WTO and say, 'this is my new list of commitments'…at that point in time we then step in."
sounds like our WTO position is very much dependent on the deals we negotiate to me, youd be a fool to consider them unrelated 😀
I quoted the UK study as that's what was published today. Many foreign countries have spoken of their desire to do trade deals with the UK the US included. They know we are a leader in free trade and a million times easier and more pragmatic to deal with than the EU.
Mefty - that was almost 2 months ago. Views may have changed
I think the truth is that during the Referendum international organisations where queueing up to say bad stuff, since the vote they have been steadily back-pedalling. I predict that will continue so views and public statements are changing to be more and more positive.
"Many foreign countries have spoken of their desire to do trade deals with the UK the US included. They know we are a [s]leader in free trade[/s] [b]desperate[/b]"
Once again Jambalaya it is IMO and I predict.
Is that the government position or just yours?
Chris everything I post is in my opinion and everything in the future is a prediction. What I would say is David Davies said many of the same things I have been saying in his Select Committe testimony
As I was saying earlier (from Indy) ... Dogs Breakfast
Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s chosen lead for talks over Britain’s exit, attacked the Council for unilaterally pushing ahead with the talks.Speaking in a plenary meeting on Wednesday, the former Belgian Prime Minister accused heads of state of trying to sideline Parliament’s role in Brexit, and even threatened to launch “parallel negotiations” with Britain.
So is that Remoaner click bait or is it Brexiteer click bait?
I would imagine that RoW views us with a combined sense of bewilderment, incredulity, indifference and concern over the not-so-latent xenophobia.
Oh and sympathy, as anyone would to those who self-harm
🙂
Yeah saw that EU parliament vs commission thing, is like May vs the high court.
It's going to drag things on ever longer making it impossible to secure a trade deal in the short term, our ambassador to the EU was being optimistic at 10 years IMHO 😉
Davies was more like :
No transition or maybe yes.
No plans, or maybe yes in February.
No payment to access single market or maybe yes.
No going back on article 50 or maybe yes.
IMO he hasn't got a clue.
IME he hasn't a clue
I think the truth is that during the Referendum international organisations where queueing up to say bad stuff, since the vote they have been steadily back-pedalling. I predict that will continue so views and public statements are changing to be more and more positive.
Except the direction of travel has been less positive for the UK. Initially we were going to drop straight into the WTO, then it was it will be smooth, now it's wait until your EU exit discussions are over.
And I predict that Davies views are his own and do not represent the government.
Man she just looks so forlorn, I'm sure that brexit probably was the only way she'd have made it to PM, but you can tell she'd rather be there as an influential member of the team, rather than an unwanted hanger on.
IMO cchris2lou may be correct
Davies didn't rule anything in or out Chris. He did say we would not try and stop A50 but he imagined the EU might try not least as there where a number of EU countries who thought we could be persuaded to stay. He said there would be a paper (not likely to be a white paper) published before A50 with enough time for a Parliamentary debate and not before end of January. He also reiterated A50 by the end of March at the latest. We are going to have full access to the single market at a minimum in the same way say the US does. We may have tariff free access to some or most of it - we won't have full access to everything as thats THE single market (very precious politically) and in any case we don't want the fisheries policy and other bits of the agricultural markets (as per Davies)
Kimbers the quicker we and May are out of that sh.t the better. Junker p.ssed again
Kimbers the quicker we and May are out of that sh.t the better
yeah coz international politics is best conducted from an isolationist standpoint, especially with your closest neighbours
we are indeed
[img] 
[/img]
I think the longer this goes on the more countries will realise what they can gain from Brexit and resistance to it will diminish. People are already planning not only damage limitation strategies for any negative consequences but also how they can most profit from the situation.
International trade and politics should be conducted internationally, by us.
Kimbers the quicker we and May are [s]out [/s][b]into[/b] of that sh.t the better [b]according to Jamba[/b]
FTFY
but also how they can most profit from the situation
might have been ruperts plan all along, brexit has given him a nice 20% discount on Sky.
Jamba - there is no chance of tariff free access to anything without free movement of people. This is 100% clear
Why to the leavers keep on with the fantasies? It doesn't become true the more you repeat it.