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The emotional "We just don't like England" argument shouldn't be underestimated when standing in the polling station. It might be wrong, but it's there.
As TJ said, the genuine "don't like" mob will be very small and absolute halfwits.
Rather than "we just don't like england" my position is no "we're just different from england"
I was a vocal No voter in the Indyref. Not because of any great love for Westminster but because the case was not strong enough. I also pushed the point a lot that the north of England is more closely aligned to Scotland.
However in the wake of the EU ref I'm a vocal indy supporter. One key reason is I can now see a clear, undeniable difference in the Scottish and English mindset, mentality, ethos.
I was staggered and dissapointed at the way the north of England voted. It shattered any illusions I had about any political, cultural and sociological affiliations between Scotland and England. The divide is clear for me and I think it's time we go our own way.
Yes the fiscal case is uncertain however I feel we face another financial Armageddon if the UK does leave the EU, so Scotland may as well do it now because either way were ****ed though I don't think it will be as bad under independence.
I'm embarrassed and ashamed at the prospect of my European work colleagues thinking I share the racist and xenophobic mindset that seems to becoming mainstream and acceptable in England. Scotland is not without its own issues but TJ made a great post yester day explaining Scotland is a very tolerant, understanding, welcoming and liberal country. At the moment i feel very out of sync with the rest of the UK and I don't want the rights and freedoms I currently enjoy as a member of the EU taken away because another nation holds a different viewpoint to mine.
Molgrips - those are concerns yes - but are they legitimate or are they actually false? If the concerns are based on false perceptions then surely those concerns should be challenged not pandered to?
The labour party is doing neither. It shares your lofty disdain for the racist thicko's who used to vote for it
Not sure what 'it' refers to in that sentence. Labour party is hardly united as a single entity is it? 🙂
A lot of politicians have disdain for the thickos not just Labour 🙂
Molgrips - those are concerns yes - but are they legitimate or are they actually false?
The *concern* is legitimate. The problem is not. In other words, people are right to be concerned, but they need to be convinced of the benefits and that things need to be handled better.
If things aren't explained properly people will get the wrong end of the stick - this is not a condemnation of people's intelligence, it's simply how all people react. Good communication is key to any working relationship.
Rather than "we just don't like england" my position is no "we're just different from england"
Which is a genuinely intriguing viewpoint. What happens between Carlisle and Gretna or Berwick-U-T and Edinburgh - do people change that much. More than say between Selkirk and Nairn or Moffat and Oban?
Scotland and England (and RoUK) seem to share tremendous similarities and are interdependent in terms of trade and economic cycles - with Scotland being less diversified and more exposed to P of Oil etc. But that apart, the reason why the Union works so well is precisely because of the close synchronicity between us coupled with free movement of people which allows everyone to benefit from having a common currency and the diversification of risk etc and increasing levels of devolved power and autonomy.
So in the face of this, the preference of the vocal minority is to cut those ties in favour of monetary, fiscal and political subservience to Frankfurt, with people who are far more culturally different and with whom Scotland trades much less and with economies that are far less (if at all) synchronised. So as the S periphery have found out to their cost, policy is determined by German needs not theirs. And this is a better outcome??? Yes, because at least its not English!!
What is the gaelic for "turkey" and "christmas"?
The close results of the referendum should have been a great opportunity for the opposition parties but they missed it by a mile.
The lib dem are trying hard to grab it but they are starting so far behind it is hardly going to make an impact.
Binnrs - The labour party is pandering to it tho - hence Burnhams speech and thats the problem. the labour party should be spending its time countering the false premises that give rise to the anti immigration feeling.
On the NHS for example. 2 easy points to make
1) Without immigrants to staff the service it would collapse
2) as immigrants pay more tax and use less services than the average UK citizen then because of this economic activity from immigrants there is actually a greater tax take per capita - so immigration leads to more money for the NHS
So immigration both leads to more and better trained NHS staff and ( if the government want) more money for the NHS
Poor Old Tiny Tim, gets a sniff and then his own side, ok some (1/3) of them, turn against him
Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron is facing his own revolt over Brexit, after MPs criticised his fight against the Article 50 exit notice. Rebels say they cannot face their voters if they have given the impression they are failing to “accept the result of the referendum”.
tick
One said the Lib Dems should rise above “meaningless gesture politics and party political games” he said were played by Labour and the Tories in the Commons this week and be fully focussed on fighting for the best possible Brexit deal.
Good idea, but q hard in practice
Three of Mr Farron's MPs – a third of his shrunken Commons party 😳 – failed to obey his instruction to vote against Theresa May’s rapid timetable for withdrawal on Wednesday, with the rebellion threatening to undermine his claim that “only the Liberal Democrats are providing a real opposition to the Conservative Brexit government”.
Molgrips - I guess we are back to semantics but IMO if a concern is based on false premise then it may be "real" but it is not "legitimate"
fHowever in the wake of the EU ref I'm a vocal indy supporter. One key reason is I can now see a clear, undeniable difference in the Scottish and English mindset, mentality, ethos.
I am not sure that this is true.
I think that the ref showed that England is more divided than Scotland. I think England has a greater diversity economically from mega money London though to the urban areas up north that have been redeveloped to urban areas up north that area dead, through to areas of the south west that are all retirement villages. Don't get me wrong I know Scotland has diversity but it's not as much over so many areas.
Basically don't fall into the trap of prejudging the English to be prejudice. The result was very divided.
The *concern* is legitimate.
It isn't, its false
In other words, people are right to be concerned,
No they are not.
but they need to be convinced of the benefits and that things need to be handled better.
always someone else's fault?? If they prefer to believe lies that is their fault. That is why some classify them as "stupid" an accusation whilst harsh is hard to falsify.
The close results of the referendum should have been a great opportunity for the opposition parties but they missed it by a mile.
The lib dem are trying hard to grab it but they are starting so far behind it is hardly going to make an impact.
Chris look at the map I posted, the Labour heartlands of the Midlands and North voted strongly Leave. The only Labour area strongly Remain was central London.
What happens between Carlisle and Gretna or Berwick-U-T and Edinburgh - do people change that much.
What happens?
Almost 60% voting to leave the EU vs more than 60% voting to stay in. The map posted a couple of pages back tells a strong story.
All 32 regions in Scotland voted for remain. All of them. In Edinburgh it was 74% remain.
There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
It isn't, its false
From a Surrey/Islington viewpoint eh ?
Many Labour MPs (Burnham included) are starting to get it. McDonnell was quite right to speak of the great opportunities we have outside the EU.
Bob Edinburgh voted Remain for the same reasons London did, financial services.
EDIT: personally I think the Scots are similar to North of England and Wales in terms of outlook. IMO the vote in Scotland was hugely tactical around those who wanted an Indy Ref 2 swinging the result heavily to Remain.
To me, being concerned is thinking there might be a problem. That's not the same a thinking there IS one.
I didn't say Labour should oppose article 50, but at the bare minimum they should be vocal on what Brexit means for those people who voted Leave.
At present they are doing nothing.
The lib dem have chosen to oppose Brexit, and it gained them one seat.
On a different note, major banks have asked the Treasury to extend the negotiations period by 3 years.
Jamba -- I live in Edinburgh and I follow scottish politics closely. financial services is a very small part of the reasons why Edinburgh voted so strongly to remain
Edinburgh is a cosmopolitan and diverse city. We consider ourselves as living in one of the great European capitals. We cherish our links to mainland europe.
The main reason why Edinburgh voted remain is that the xenophobia that drives anti europe feeling is not a significant factor in Edinburgh. the seconday reason is that we want to remain in the EU for all the benefits it brings
Its absolutly nothing to do with the independence question. 30% of SNP voters over the country voted out. More folk in Edinburgh voted remain than voted for independence
There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
As I said, intriguing view.
The voting patterns are illuminating aren't they?
All 32 regions in Scotland voted for remain. All of them. In Edinburgh it was 74% remain. There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
Aye and all but 4 regions voted to remain part of the UK. 28 of them. In 10 of them by >60% versus the most anti-region Dundee at 57% 😉 which had lower than average turnout as did two of the others (one marginally admittedly!)
The lib dem have chosen to oppose Brexit, and it gained them one seat.
I don't think that's necessarily the right conclusion from Richmond, Zak Goldsmith lost it by being nob, plain and simple.
From a Surrey/Islington viewpoint eh ?
From an educated/non-xenophobic viewpoint
How do you block posters?
zippykona
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-killfile-plugin/page/2
However I have edited it so I can't be blocked 😉
Blah, blah, blah... we're better than you because we're soooooooooooooo cosmopolitan..... blah, blah, blah....... concern yourselves not peasants, and leave everything to us, for we shall deliver our multicultural wonderland. And you will thank us. Be grateful you simple uneducated urchins!
Binners.. do you not want multiculturalism?
Binners - just a bit different in political outlook 🙂
Scotland voted overwhelmingly in
Right wing parties (excluding labour) get under 20% of the vote here
Relax binns, go and have a ride.
Brexshit and the demise of Labour have plenty of time to run still....
Doesn't matter what I think Molls. What gets on my tits is that its now some kind of moral obligation for everyone to just accept this lofty metropolitan idea of a multicultural utopia, which cannot be questioned without having non-believers hysterically labelled as racists
I don't think that's necessarily the right conclusion from Richmond, Zak Goldsmith lost it by being nob, plain and simple.
I don't think this is fair, my analysis based on living here is:
(i) Inertia
(ii) Resources
(iii) Brexit
Binners, when exactly was Britain a monoculture, and what to you want doing with those who's culture only overlaps with yours, rather than matching it exactly?
I'm not expressing an opinion one way or another on multiculturalism
What I'm questioning is a lofty metropolitan assumption that everyone has to accept large-scale immigration as unquestioningly wonderful, and if you dare to suggest that it isn't all absolutely marvelous then you're a racist.
Because its exactly that arrogance that alienates and excludes people, by labelling them, and thus casually dismissing their concerns
Thanks for the list TJ, nice to have a few objective reasons.
I think the Brexit will give a higher priority to some of those, and in a straight choice between remaining in the UK or remaining in Europe, Europe would win. I look forward to a declaration of independence if ever Brexit goes through.
Binners - from where I sit immigration is a good thing. The NHS in which I work would collapse without immigrants. They contribute to the economy more than non immigrants so make the country richer
Binners - [b]from where I sit[/b] immigration is a good thing
And there you have it. I think its good, therefore everyone must.
I haven't expressed an opinion. Merely highlighted a lofty metropolitan attitude to the racist thicko's in the provinces, who's concerns are not legitimate and can be thus waved away
without having non-believers hysterically labelled as racists
Well that gets on my tits too. If there's one thing I am for it's decent thought and proper debate.
Edukator - I find it very interesting that the exit vote did not lead to an increase in the independence vote. Its a real thorny conundrum for the SNP
A large strand of opinion in the SNP want out of the UK AND out of the EU. 30% of all snp voters voted out of the EU. Around 20% of SNP votoers did not vote for independence in the referendum
The SNP have to unpick this and find some way of meeting their aspirations as well
Anecdotally I know a fair few died in the wool unionists who have said they would chose an independent scotland in the EU over being in the UK outside the EU but for some reason this is not reflected in the polls.
AS the disaster that is leaving the EU becomes more obvious perhaps this will change but time is not on the SNPs side because they would need to get an independence referendum thru before the UK leaves the EU to remain the successor state.
Binners - not waved away at all. Labour needs to challenge those views and explain an alternative narrative but somehow lacks the bollox to do so.
I want to see labour challenge the false reporting that leads to folk having these anti immigration views not to pander to them.
Public opinion can be changed by political parties. However labour lack the bottle to even attempt to do so.
"Well that gets on my tits too. If there's one thing I am for it's decent thought and proper debate."
This.
The vote was close. Focussing on real issues instead of name calling could easily have produced a completely different result.
It is a lot more difficult to explain the benefits of immigration in rural areas, or where there is low immigration. It is similar in France where the FN Scores highly in places with low immigration.
people make their mind with the information available to them not so much first hand experience.
true OOB - I think its one of the reasons Scotland voted in so decisively - not one single significant politician north of the border was for out and the SNP especially focussed on a positive campaign not a negative one.
I don't live in a city.
I am not a man of means.
My voice isn't listened to anymore than yours.
I am not a part of any Metropotian Elite.
There are lowlife like me who can see what the immigration blame game is all about.
And I will call it out at every opportunity, because you can be sure those seeking to blame immigrants will not stop. Ever.
There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
Me too, Scotland seems a much nicer place than England. (thinking about moving there)
The cold and wet puts me off though as weather is important to me. Not sure whose fault the weather is but I would imagine the brexiters have something to do with it.
Merely highlighted a lofty metropolitan attitude to the racist thicko's in the provinces, who's concerns are not legitimate and can be thus waved away
Of course, it must be remembered that remainer sentiment is not an exclusively metropolitan elite thing. Remain majority was pretty slim in most areas and plenty of rural non-southern constituencies backed remain.
I know you're not saying that, but plenty of non-metropolitan remainers might also think leavers as thickos. I don't think it's particularly healthy to risk painting it as a London vs everywhere else divide.
It's nice to see that such is the desire in some people to argue, that in the face of a lack of opposition people are happy to start arguing with others in the same camp.
😆
tjagain - MemberBinners - from where I sit immigration is a good thing. The NHS in which I work would collapse without immigrants. They contribute to the economy more than non immigrants so make the country richer
I'll forgive you for being misinformed on this subject as I believe you were still banned from this forum when it was last discussed, though many who weren't seem to have hazy memories as, like yourself, they quote opinion as proven fact.
On the subject of immigrants being net fiscal contributors, the actual results are not as clear cut as you try to make out.
The majority of studies only look at tax paid vs services used in a current instant, and do not take into account stages in a person's life when they are more likely to be dependant on the state, because it is too difficult to work this out.
And a question for you tj; do you think a constantly increasing population is a good thing?
I've not said at any point its a London thing Molls. I've said its a metropolitan thing.
And what I'm saying is that Multiculturalism looks very different in Middleton than it does in a cosmopolitan (and financilly better off) City Centre,.
Yet we have people, for example the leader of the Labour party, who absolutely point blank refuse to acknowledge that fact, never mind actually engaging with it, and airily dismiss those people who raise the subject as bigots and racists.
Which is manna from heaven for UKIP, who are happily sweeping up all the voters the labour party has so pompously and arrogantly dismissed as such
And a question for you tj; do you think a constantly increasing population is a good thing?
How else are most of us going to get our state pension paid for?
grumpysculler - MemberHow else are most of us going to get our state pension paid for?
Whoa there grumpysculler, I'm prepared to get into an "answering a question with a question" rally with tj as my Jewish heritage allows, but what are [i]your[/i] ethnic credentials for such an exchange?
🙂
Apart from the massive financial pyramid scheme the world seems intent on following, there isn't a single issue facing mankind that could not be mitigated by reducing our overall population over time. The quicker the better.
welshfarmer - MemberThe quicker the better.
WWIII? 😕
No one mention ponzi schemes...
Binners replace "racist" with "xenophobic" and you have a more accurate assessment. People appear to swallow stories that feed unfounded phobias and this makes them afraid. Yes, there is a job of education but equally some people are deaf to facts as these threads illustrate all too clearly.
No I don't sBob. However given the huge increase in world population then a small increase in our own seems about right - and we have more UK citizens living in the rest of the EU than we have EU citizens living in the UK so if all EU immigrants went home our population would be larger.
I'd happily trade all the pensioners we export for all the economically active young folk we import.
[quote=sbob ] welshfarmer - Member
The quicker the better.
WWIII?
I was thinking more along the lines of improved education (especially for women), improved social and economic conditions worldwide and increased availability of contraception.
But I guess your idea might be closer to what we will actually get
plenty of non-metropolitan remainers might also think leavers as thickos.
Actually I think it is the leavers who are quick to label the working class leave vote as in skilled, lacking in prospects, not as capable or hardworking as immigrants etc.
Strangely it seems to work for them.
tjagain - MemberNo I don't sBob. However given the huge increase in world population then a small increase in our own seems about right
I'm not sure what "seems about right" means. We're not going to reduce our (Earth's) population and the drain on its resources by only increasing our population "a bit".
I'd happily trade all the pensioners we export for all the economically active young folk we import.
But they won't be economically active for ever, like electric cars it is just moving the problem not solving it.
Anyway, you now have two genuine concerns that many Brexit voters (not that I was one) had that are not down to racism or xenophobia.
Apart from the massive financial pyramid scheme the world seems intent on following, there isn't a single issue facing mankind that could not be mitigated by reducing our overall population over time. The quicker the better.
Yup. Phosphates crisis.
EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as part of Brexit negotiations,
Suits me but seems a somewhat odd idea
The quicker the better.
sbob - MemberWWIII?
stop at one, halve the population in 30 years.
stop at one, halve the population in 30 years.
Yup, better than letting starvation, disease, war and global warming do it.
China managed it.
Why an odd idea TJ?
It is a brilliant idea. It means that Brits leaving abroad won't have to worry too much about their future. And it pushes the UK government to do something about eu migrants living in the UK.
tjagain - MemberEU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as part of Brexit negotiations,
Suits me but seems a somewhat odd idea
I'm already in the process of using my **foreignness to get an *EU passport. 😀
*As in passport for an EU member state, for the pedants, which is all of you. 😛
**Can't look at that word without thinking "mmmmm, Guinness". 😆
Is it being proposed because EU passports do not currently exist?
Re the opt-back-in.. wow.
That's quite a political bombshell, in some ways, isn't it?
cchris - 'cos folk like me would be UK citizens - but the UK is not in the EU but I would remain an EU citizen. What happens when my rights as a EU citizen are in conflict with my rights as a UK citizen? would I still have redress through the european courts even tho Westminster no longer recognises them?
It only applies to freedom of movement, nothing else.
A bit like a permanent visa.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Is it being proposed because EU passports do not currently exist?
i think you mean the EU dont issue them not they dont exist.
Here is a nice wee picture for you and then one for your franglais as well- I have no idea what it says as its beyond me
[img] http://www.nsl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FRENCH-PASSPORT-large.jp g" target="_blank">
http://www.nsl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FRENCH-PASSPORT-large.jp g"/> [/img]
And the sooner we get all that ****ing forren riting off its front the better.
, monarchy thing?
No Unicorns, one of them is on the front of my [b]UK[/b] passport which means - apparently - that they exist.
cchris - 'cos folk like me would be UK citizens - but the UK is not in the EU but I would remain an EU citizen. What happens when my rights as a EU citizen are in conflict with my rights as a UK citizen? would I still have redress through the european courts even tho Westminster no longer recognises them?
TJ is right here. The EU citizenship "offer" is a wheeze by Brussels to try and maintain the influence of European Courts within the UK. IMO it is most definitely not about protecting the rights of UK citizens in Europe, it's a (petty and ridiculous) threat to kick them out of Europe if we don't agree to European Court jurisdiction in the UK
My view it's a non-starter (European court and rights within the UK). If you like in UK you are subject to UK law only under the jurisdiction of UK courts only. EU citizens can remain
In other news I see now Cameron in not PM he is free to start calling for change in the euro, as he rightly says it can't realistically survive in it's current form. Too many states have had no growth for too long as a result of their membership, they need their own currency and a devaluation.
jambalaya - Member
Bob Edinburgh voted Remain for the same reasons London did, financial services.
Glasgow was 67% remain.
What was their motivation?
Bob, my view is that Scots recognised that if UK leaves the EU an Independent Scotland is MUCH less likely as it would most certainly have to rejoin the EU from scratch, ie no opts outs and definitely taking the euro. That is a hard sell to Scots and will create a period where an Independent Scotland is not in the UK or the EU. Plus you have the (daft) logic that it's better to have Brussels in charge of your laws than the Tories in Westminster.
Welsh, agreed the World's population is out of control. It may even be the long term sustainable UK population is more like (say) 40m than 65m
jambalaya - Member - Block User - Quote
Bob, my view is that Scots recognised that if UK leaves the EU an Independent Scotland is MUCH less likely as it would most certainly have to rejoin the EU from scratch, ie no opts outs and definitely taking the euro. That is a hard sell to Scots and will create a period where an Independent Scotland is not in the UK or the EU. Plus you have the (daft) logic that it's better to have Brussels in charge of your laws than the Tories in Westminster.
Absolute 100% bollocks
Jamba thats 100% the wrong way round. The UK leaving the EU makes an independent scotland in the EU much easier as Scotland simply would be the successor state. so if the scots wanted to use the EU referendum to leverage scots independence a vote for out would be more likely.
he trolls he scores
tjagain - MemberJamba thats 100% the wrong way round.
Unfortunately it isn't.
As I have stated before, Scotland is not a member of the EU.
A newly independent Scotland would not be in the EU, it would be treated as a new country.
It would have to apply for membership of the EU same as any other country that isn't a member.
It's all in the treaties, which are all available on line, which I've linked to before.
Even the SNP said that they'd simply(!) change EU law to retain/gain membership.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]No Unicorns, one of them is on the front of my UK passport which means - apparently - that they exist.
Have you had a liquid lunch today with some MP chums?
As i said member states issue EU passports for citizens of their country. It snot hard to understand that what you said was not wholly accurate nor wholly inaccurate You are free to cite unicorns in the face of the facts as you see fit.
FWIW the UK also issues UK non EU passports as well for overseas territories citizens and others. No idea why we have two seeing as there are no EU passports , can you ask the unicorn ?
FROWNS
[img] 
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The UK leaving the EU makes an independent scotland in the EU much easier as Scotland simply would be the successor state. so if the scots wanted to use the EU referendum to leverage scots independence a vote for out would be more likely.
I concur.
If Scotland leaves the union at least one EU nation would veto Scotland's membership request. Apart from anything else, it will encourage other nationalist separatists in the EU.
If the UK left the EU that situation changes a bit. (Maybe not enough, but it changes.)
Eurobonds are a solution Cameron ignores.
As for blaming no growth on the inability to devalue, 50 American states have worked around this. They can all borrow from the Fed at the same rate though.
I'm not worried, the voice of a failed British PM who initiated the whole Brexit farce will be lost in the wind, he might as well be standing on the white cliffs shouting.
Bob and TJ your responses convince me I am 100% correct 🙂
The UK in it's entirety (ie Scotland and all) will be out of the EU by 2019. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell there will be an iS by then. As such an iS would be making a fresh application, there is no successor state nonsesne to be had. My view is Scots and the SNP are well aware of this. Any future Referendum (and I don't believe there will ever be another like 2014) would be fought on the basis that Scotland will be making a fresh application as a new member, join the long and skow cue, no opt outs etc.
Far more likely that an independent Scotland would join the EEA, via EFTA or similar… I can see Scottish voters going for that in a big way. Full EU membership is not the only option for them.
Once Art 50 goes in anything can happen. If I were a negociator for the euro zone I'd want representatives of the regional Uk assemblies at the table, and the first thing I'd offer them would be continued EU membership if they asked for it.
In the history of decolonisation many states declared their independence without a referendum. I don't see why Scotland would need another referendum, a vote by the elected representatives in the Scottish parliament would suffice.