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and at the end of the day was achieved very easily.
by Gina Miller 😉
Jamba - how was it a massive win to be pushed into doing something May said they would not do and would be very damaging - and pushed into it by a backbench rebellion?
Nobody disputes that Article 50 won't be triggered, and probably on time.
The hard work will start once it is triggered.
Could have sworn that this was a Labour motion, plus on what side was the biggest backbench revolt?
The motion - with the all important amendment which scuppered the oppo (not Gina Miller this time, the pretend one)
That this House recognises that leaving the EU is the defining issue facing the UK; notes the resolution on parliamentary scrutiny of the UK leaving the EU agreed by the House on 12 October 2016; recognises that it is Parliament’s responsibility to properly scrutinise the Government while respecting the decision of the British people to leave the European Union; confirms that there should be no disclosure of material that could be reasonably judged to damage the UK in any negotiations to depart from the European Union after Article 50 has been triggered; and calls on the Prime Minister to commit to publishing the Government’s plan for leaving the EU before Article 50 is invoked, consistently with the principles agreed without division by this House on 12 October; recognises that this House should respect the wishes of the United Kingdom as expressed in the referendum on 23 June; [b]and further calls on the Government to invoke Article 50 by 31 March 2017.[/b]
Jambas, newsnight was interesting and Kinnock was pretty clear agreed. All we saw was a total waste of time (as Neuberger hinted at) with the Brexsiteers having the upper hand. But no real winners at all, other than the time for delaying and uncertainty now has limits which is a relief
The hard work will start once it is triggered.
Indeed the rest is just noise
From Laura K
[b]It sailed through.[/b]
For the first time, MPs have agreed in a vote that we will begin the process of leaving the EU by the end of March.
The government chief whip was seen with a massive grin after tonight's vote.
[b]Remember ministers' climbdown came with a clever kicker, persuading Labour to sign up to their timetable for triggering Article 50 without committing to very much in return - the vague promise of a plan that could be as detailed as the back of the proverbial fag packet.[/b]
There's grumpiness on the Labour benches at how it was handled - angry conversations taking place, sources suggest - a sense among some that the front bench allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by the government's cunning plan.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38244953
The Government set a trap and it was triggered with a massive majority. The Government will provide broadbrush details, as Boris said on Marr if you read what the Government has said there is a lot of information there. We want control of our laws, borders and freedom to do trade deals. That means no single market and no customs union. The Govt will lay out what it's offereing, eg free trade on a list of sectors and expect that in return, EU citizens can remain if EU grants the same etc
THE single market is the European Union, they've created a political structure around that concept and we are leaving the EU to end our membership of that political project.
So a huge climbdown from a definite position by May is a win, yet Labour continuance of their ( stupid) policy of not opposing exit is seen as a loss.
Its alice in wonderland all over again.
this is the biggest humiliation in parliament to the tories for a long time. To be forced into a 180degree u turn from their position of a week or two ago because of the fact they were facing a backbench rebellion is a humiliation. Remember only a couple of weeks ago Mays position was that she would not reveal her hand at all as it would be hugely damaging to the negotiations.
Nobody disputes that Article 50 won't be triggered, and probably on time.The hard work will start once it is triggered.
I think there are a very large number of people who are trying to stop it being triggered, fortunately very few of them are MPs
Yes agreed. I think the EU is incapable of agreeing much as there is no leadership. It will be up to the more powerful member countries to show the way
A nifty sidestep resulting in Labour scoring a massive own goal 8)
The SNP voted against for domestic political reasons, they are 51 of the 89 votes. Last night was a crushing defeat for Remain.
Labours position is unchanged by this. completely unchanged. No own goal there SNP voted against out of principle. There is no great political advantage for them in this given 30% of snp voters are outies
this is the biggest humiliation in parliament to the tories for a long time
PSA a fact-based alternative assessment is available
A split government reverse sprung a trap and now has a firm commitment. The Labour position is indeed the same - AWOL. The SNP are just inconsistent and in this case irrelevant.
time will tell I guess
I'd say the biggest humiliation was Cameron loosing the referendum itself!
Last night's vote was another step toward brexit, and Little Britain, but there's always hope that disaster can be averted as brexishambles will be exposed to more scrutiny now and hopefully people will see that blaming Brussels for the faults of Westminster will not fix their grievances
70% of Labour MPs sit in constituencies which voted Leave
Oooo… a fact.
The question is… the people who actually voted for those Labour MPs, rather than against them, in those constituencies, which way did they vote as regards the EU? The Labour Party risk losing support if they look pro-Leave just as much (arguably more, if you believe the polls) than if they look to be pro-Remain. Hence… lots of looking busy while doing nothing.
I'll agree with one thing Jamba, Labour are being utterly useless, and May is running rings around them, making them look pointless. She is playing it very well. The only real opposition is on her own benches.
Some great Labour MPs I feel very sorry for.
[i]The hard work will start once it is triggered. [/I]
Nah, that's just 2 years of politicians pissing around (with our money).
The hard work will start once we're out and we've somehow got to recover from the unholy mess we've been put in - even Jamba acknowledges it'll take +10 years.
Plus we'll still be forking out vast sums to pay off our liabilities (Farage's pension for one) and various access fees all while tax revenues have collapsed (10%?) due to the recession and the big corps moving their HO's (back) into the EU.
30% of snp voters are outies
Surely 100% of snp are outies? (Since there's no way they could remain in the EU if they left the Union.)
I'd say the biggest humiliation was Cameron loosing the referendum itself!
+1.
OOB - a different argument but most sane commentators believe that an independent Scotland would simply remain in as the successor state. Plenty of significnt euro politicians back this view ( cue repeat quotes from Barusso a spanish unionist made before the EU vote) After the euro vote the potential position of an independent scotland in the EU changed dramatically
OOB - I think the plan now is England and Wales leave the UK and the remnant UK says in the EU.
Who is humiliated?
All of us. A very bad argument won the day. That was appalling and humiliating for every Remainer (although TM did get the top job, so she probably is an exception). Plus we now realise that our society has strong xenophobic under-currents and is swayed by crass gesture politics and snake oil populism. That is equally humiliating.
But that is nothing when compared to the eventual realisation from the Brexshiteers that the outcome will be a lot worse than the status quo especially for the low-income segments that have been grossly misled. Cranberry sauce anyone?
Beyond that, the ultimate humiliation may yet come to those who want independence but find their leaders frogmarching them into monetary, fiscal and policitical subservience to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels. How crass would that be? Xmas and thanksgiving rolled into one!
Lots can happen before end of March, xmas spending might not be as good as normal will push retailers in the red. Rents to pay, full effect of low pound etc...
Some mps will have brave decision to make.
Beyond that, the ultimate humiliation may yet come to those who want independence but find their leaders frogmarching them into monetary, fiscal and policitical subservience to Frankfurt Brussels.
That could apply to several groups of people. Brexies and SNP for starters.
Not sure about the former, but the latter certainly. They are looking even sillier now, albeit with mitigating circumstances.
"Lots can happen before end of March"
Before the end of March 2019. Assuming there's no extension to kick it further into the long grass.
Fudgable. Easily fudgable.
or Oct 2018?
Maybe it's part of the masterplan...MP's will be able to vote a50 off the table in March, citing there's no good deal on offer (which there won't be), and avoid simply voting it out and going against the referendum result, which they can't be seen to be doing.
Voting to halt a50 due to lack of a good deal on the table is a reasonable position.
mattyfez +1
Tactics are part of it, spook enough of the marginal Brexit places and enough MP's can do what their constituents want. [s]Champagne[/s] Pint of tetleys still on ice and the fat lady not even confirming the booking.
except they have just committed to
"calls on the Government to invoke Article 50 by 31 March 2017."
so if that was the plan (to obstruct the democratic process) they botched that too
Which will require a vote, puts a timetable for a vote so TM can't push it back to wait for better times. She needs the numbers (SC will require it) and at present she probably knows she doesn't have them. This will need a parliamentary vote and most MP's are against.
But that is nothing when compared to the eventual realisation from the Brexshiteers that the outcome will be a lot worse than the status quo especially for the low-income segments that have been grossly misled. Cranberry sauce anyone?
Indeed Hurty. I think you ay see a bit of this business when said ' low-income segments that have been grossly misled' realise by just how much! And realise that they've been conned into allowing the forces of the right a blank cheque to cynically re-write things in order to make their lives considerably worse, and throw society even more out of kilter in favour of the rich and privileged.
A very telling comment the other day from a Tory MP in some committee or other, saying they were working on, post-Brexit .... 'helping business, through planned de-regulation'
I mean, seriously.... what on earth do people think thats going to entail? I think theres a very good reason May and her stooges don't want anyone to know what they're up too. Creating a right wing, neo-liberal uber-capitalist wet dream? Which is definitely NOT what those people voted for. In fact its the polar opposite!
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Wasn't the SC explicit is stating upfront that they were not opining on the rights and wrongs of Brexshit nor on what needs to be presented. They are simply ruling on the issue of whether the gov can exercise royal prerogative or not
neo-liberal wet dream
The EU *is* a neo-liberal wet dream.
Pint of tetleys still on ice and the fat lady not even confirming the booking.
+1 ...and both parties who have to negotiate the booking of the Fat Lady to sing don't like Fat Ladies singing and would much prefer the performance went on indefinitely. Meanwhile the entity who requested the show was in two minds about whether they even wanted to go to the show at all.
They are simply ruling on the issue of whether the gov can exercise royal prerogative or not
and odds are this isn't something that can be done via prerogative hence needing a vote
The EU *is* a neo-liberal wet dream
I suspect that compared to what this lot have got in mind for the future of the UK, the EU will soon be resembling a Corbynist-style socialist utopia
Reality has a liberal bias.
Have you stopped taking your medication?
What is that even supposed to mean? 😯
and odds are this isn't something that can be done via prerogative hence needing a vote
True - and TM should have simply backed down and proceeded with a vote. Instead she almost got caught but then resprung the trap and won that mini-battle last night thanks in part to poor, ineffective opposition*
Either way A50 will be triggered on time now.
* of course there are some, who believe that the gov got a bloody nose last night, but they seem to be in a minority of one
Either way A50 will be triggered on time now
I'm atheist, but I pray to god you are wrong.
Labour always said they would not delay implementing article 50 spineless numpties that they are
Here is an interesting one. I have just been speaking to a chap who owns a house that straddles the NI / ROI border - his front door is in ROI his back door in NI. gonna be a bit tricky to have a hard border there isn't it?
Jezza's on his hollybobs again, isn't he?
I've got a letter here from Bob, who lives in a house on the border.....
as before Jezza is
This weekend I was meeting with other socialist & progressive leaders from Europe to discuss how we'll combat the rise of the populist right
Left it to Thornbury yesterday.
Leadership not in action
Cpn 😀
"This weekend I was meeting with other socialist & progressive leaders from Europe to discuss how we'll combat the rise of the populist right"
Well one way would be to win the support of centrist voters and win an election in the UK...
It's not funny, you know. Thank you, mister speaker..... Bob's concerns are very real.....
This of course is only the first round of legal challenges. I'd like to know how legally my EU passport can be removed from me. Still got years to run.
Here is an interesting one. I have just been speaking to a chap who owns a house that straddles the NI / ROI border - his front door is in ROI his back door in NI. gonna be a bit tricky to have a hard border there isn't it?
Tax haven! Is he looking for a lodger? I'm very clean and never have late night parties.
Good to see Boris is doing a great job with the UK future trading partners.
But as always, his views do not represent the UK government position?
And we should be trusting them with Brexit!
Good to see Boris is doing a great job with the UK future trading partners.
because trade is more important than anything else ??
Judging by the meetings our glorious leader had with a selection of mass-murdering dictators yesterday, in order to sell them more arms, to make the task easier.... yes
It's pretty telling that the foreign Secretary's views have been dismissed by the the government as not representative.
Really... is he the right person for the job???
No. Next question....
You have to take your hat off to Boris for his Prince Phillip-esque determination to offend absolutely everybody.
It doesn't help May's cause that she's slapping him down this time for basically stating the truth, for once. In the same way that a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, Boris had to come out with something honest at some point, even if its by accident. And he doesn't half pick his moments
So when TM says she is going to trigger article 50 by March, is she representing the UK Government or not?
It is a bit confusing.
Of course he is not Matty. giving him the job was a political act on Mays behalf to kill his political career and to make him a scapegoat
is he the right person for the job???
Given the job is taking the blame for Brexit not happening at all then yeah, he's perfect.
The duplicitous bastard has basically been stitched up like a kipper by an even more duplicitous bastard who happened to be looking for a fall guy for the impending car crash.
Given the way he's conducted himself, he can hardly have any complaints.
Its going to be interesting to see how long they'll be able to keep a lid on the scheming and open hatred within the brexiteers once it all starts to go tits up. Not long, I'd imagine
|Its not as if the saudis brutalities in yemen using UK made weapons are in any way likely to radicalise people and cause us problems further down the line.......
My enemies enemy is my friend
Oh... hang on a minute... that doesn't even work either, does it?
One would hope that TM is representing those people whose viewed she sort and whose wishes she (ok here predecessor) promised to respect and implement. Its not hard.
And since she is a remainer, she puts the Brexshiteers in the firing line, so to speak. Ditto....
At least after all this nonsense, we wont have too many people arguing that these muppets should have more say in running the economy, education, health etc....what a shambles. Gov cant execute a simple task, oppo goes AWOL, Lib Dems ignore the will of the people and the SNP being silly. Bunch of clowns, the lot of them.
BoJo is juts a warm up to Trump and his twitter diplomacy - its going to get a lot worse.
Lib Dems ignore the will of the people
On a slight tangent it could be argued that in a representative democracy they are doing what they believe is right and what they were elected to do. Representing their constituents best interests [u]not[/u] the rather nebulous and contradictory self-harming "will of the people".
And how are the SNP being silly? I know you find them abhorrent but again, they are doing their job with a stronger "mandate" from Scotland than TM has overall for Brexit in the UK.
Lib Dems ignore the will of the people
Well... 52% of them. They're fully in line with 48%. You could argue that the Lib Dems have never been more in tune with the nation in their entire history 😀
"Representing their constituents best interests
not the rather nebulous and contradictory self-harming "will of the people"."
Which can change overnight.
to enforce the "will of the people" 😐royal prerogative
I'm inclined to think your average libdem is a remainer.
i wouldnt have said I was a lib dem, til;l they started becoming the party of the remainers
im still not sure about born again farron, but what are my options?
Mp's oppose the "will of the people" with the [url= https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/08/13/capital-punishment-50-years-favoured/ ]death penalty for example[/url]. (also all the governments since 1964 have had the good sense not to put it to the people, how did we get in this mess again ?)
I'm incline to think your average remainer is or shortly will be a Libdem or SNP. That's a lot of votes in one place in a first-past-the-post system. Who is the Libdem leader BTW?
I'd like to know how legally my EU passport can be removed from me.
The EU does not, and never has, issued passports. They have been quite clear (the Scottish government has the letters) that status as an EU citizen comes from being a citizen of a member state. If you cease to be a citizen of a member state (because that state is outside the EU) then you cease to be a citizen of the EU.
And how are the SNP being silly?
Well looking at recent news stories, the obvious one is their transport minister got caught driving without insurance
They have also been caught making SAAS remove statements that bursaries for poor students are being cut to maintain free university education.
All sounds quite silly to me.
Greens Kimbers?
Well looking at recent news stories, the obvious one is their transport minister got caught driving without insurance
They have also been caught making SAAS remove statements that bursaries for poor students are being cut to maintain free university education.All sounds quite silly to me.
I thought it was a brexit specific statement rather than a generality.
Transport minister one is really stupid - but note unlike other politicians caught similarly he has held his hands up and will accept he is going to get what he deserves
Greens Kimbers?
Not until they support open scientific evidence based policy making in all areas rather than hardline ideology.
Transport minister one is really stupid - but note unlike other politicians caught similarly her has held his hands up and will accept he is going to get what he deserves
That was my reading too
[quote=grumpysculler ]I'd like to know how legally my EU passport can be removed from me.
The EU does not, and never has, issued passports. They have been quite clear (the Scottish government has the letters) that status as an EU citizen comes from being a citizen of a member state. If you cease to be a citizen of a member state (because that state is outside the EU) then you cease to be a citizen of the EU.
.......
But my passport states I am a citizen of the EU. When the UK leaves and we are no longer EU citizens then the passport will be invalid and due for immediate replacement with a UK only one??
[i]But my passport states I am a citizen of the EU. When the UK leaves and we are no longer EU citizens then the passport will be invalid and due for immediate replacement with a UK only one?? [/I]
Go back 100 pages or so, I did ask if anyone had a plan for how we'd all get a new passport for Day Zero (and who'd pickup the cost), as I'm pretty sure other countries' Border Agency will not let us in with 'obsolete' ID.
But my passport states I am a citizen of the EU
Sure about that?
Mine says British Citizen (photo page, number 3)
I'm pretty sure other countries' Border Agency will not let us in with 'obsolete' ID.
The least of your worries, countries don't turn away tourists because two words on the passport cover are superfluous.
The passport issue is one that will have to be dealt with. Will I go thu the EU passport holders channel? I have an eu passport. How can they take that passport away?
The other big issue being ignored is what to do with the EU nationals here. Will they have right to remain? May has said so but they will all need some new form of ID to show they have residual rights. I read that at the capacity of the current system for registering for residence rights to register all eu nationals in the UK would take 1400 years