...and the fact that there has be an unprecedented period of peace amongst member states of the EEA/EEC/EU since WWII is down largely to the European project.
And when we leave they'll fire up the ovens again?
I'm seriously considering not going to Europe again. I hadn't realised they were teetering on the brink of savagery. Just us holding them back! We really are Great...
And when we leave they'll fire up the ovens again?
Uhhh.. nooooo....
If we leave there's a chance it will cause other countries to leave, which could mean the end of the EU.. and without the EU nationalism could rise, which could lead to conflict in the future.....
Understand?
And when we leave they'll fire up the ovens again?
Nope - but as the Brexiteers are keen to point out, we are/were a major force in Europe and a major financial contributor.
Our exit will hurt it and could, possibly, be the beginning of the end for the EU.
(And same thing for the Convention on Human Rights. We helped to found it and now we want to leave it because we've decided that some humans deserve fewer rights. It undermines the whole thing.)
And when we leave they'll fire up the ovens again?
That really is ****ing stupid^^^^^.
After centuries of war and the most unimaginable suffering someone finally decided enough was enough. Let's try something different to stop us having so many wars.
To me it looks like it's worked.
Understand?
Really, no. I obviously have a bit more faith in our neighbours. They're not the warmongering lunatics you think they are. Even the French.
I don't think they're warmongering lunatics.
I'm not sure you understand how wars start...
I'm not sure you understand how wars start...
Usually with isolationism, xenophobia, blaming others, rising fascism and of course [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37421525 ]building walls[/url].
Luckily there is no sign of that eh?
@crank we have the sovereign power to pick our exit date, we'll be gone by 2019
Not even close to be true.
Even the Visegrads will have a say in what we can and cant do
#fakecontrol
And as for the "hey it's not about race brigade" , I can point you to a lot of people for who it was.
My parents for two. It's like being in the 70s when I visit them. Express and Mail reading people with too much time on their hands. My mum can't actually believe that my brother (who goes to France regularly) doesn't have to fight off murderers with a base ball bat. Every time he's away I get the phone call " I'm worried about your brother ,do you think he's ok?"
You can't tell me that my parents are the only **** wits in the country.
My mum actually voted out because her friend had a Nigerian nurse who was nasty to her in hospital.
Don't worry Zippykona, my sister in law exposed herself as quite the ignorant racist thanks to Brexit
If it wasn't for their grandkids im not sure if be speaking to my parents either. (They are on hols in corfu at the moment. I await with joy their complaints of how much extra it cost them :roll:) the unlike Jambs they are not well off enough that adding on 10? to the cost of your holiday doesn't seem like a trivial thing
Even my bloody mother couldn't help but mention the number of immigrants, and living in a backwater in Scotland means there basically aren't any within 20 miles apart from a few waitresses and probably half of the staff who treat her in hospital. Bet she'd be glad if/when they are gone.
We never needed political union to keep the peace - the European Coal and Steel community was based on one simple thing - The thing that most of us right wingers were perfectly happy with
Like Toby says:
When you lot of narrow minded lefties get your head around the fact that 'us lot' were perfectly happy with being in a Europe based on freedom of trade that we were promised, rather than the pseudo-federal political union it developed into, you might begin to understand why we voted out.
Cartels????
Ninfan - I take my hat off to you. It takes massive balls for a Brexiteer to accuse others of narrow mindeness.
Did you not mean - one way freedom of movement of people?
Did you not mean - one way freedom of movement of people?
I had made an edit as my fingers had been typing faster than my brain, But are you referring to freedom of movement of people, or the freedom of movement of Labour?
It doesnt matter in the context i was referring to - i find it hard to reconcile enjoying the freedom to move and work across Europe without restriction with wanting to restrict others from enjoying the same. There is a word for that....
FWIW. I am in favour of both.
When you lot of narrow minded lefties get your head around the fact that 'us lot' were perfectly happy with being in a Europe without the freedom of movement and political union that we were promised
Why is it a "leftie" issue? Weren't large parts of the Tory party pro-Remain? Were they just the left wing Tories? And didn't Labour have internal tussles over its position because of pro-Leave members?
European Coal and Steel community was based on one simple thing
Oooh ooh was it "freedom of movement"?
"The member States bind themselves to renounce any restriction based on nationality against the employment in the coal and steel industries of workers of proven qualifications for such industries who
possess the nationality of one of the member States; this commitment shall be subject to the limitations imposed by the fundamental needs of health and public order."
-- [url= http://www.cvce.eu/obj/treaty_establishing_the_european_coal_and_steel_community_paris_18_april_1951-en-11a21305-941e-49d7-a171-ed5be548cd58.html ]Article 69, para 1 Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (Paris, 18 April 1951)[/url]
Or was it the "political union" described in the earlier articles?
Edit: ah I see you've skilfully moved those goalposts.
Not even close to be true.
Let's be specific.
We will pick out Article 50 date when we wish, 2 years later we are gone. So we chose the dates.
General view which I agree with is we will be gone before the 2019 European Parliament Elections tying in with an early 2017 A50 trigger.
Wars. There isn't going to be an armed conflict UK vs anyone in EU. It's just a non-starter, inconceivable. NATO is the organisation which provides security. The EU has proven itself totally incompetant in foreign affairs whether that be the Balkans, Ukraine, Russia or the migrant crises.
Since the referendum Junker and the EU have again raised the profile once more on the "need" for an EU army. This is for a number of reasons imo none good
EU comission wants to be in charge of more stuff - ego and power addicts
EU wants the ability to send armed forces into any country to enforce EU law,meg in migrant crises send troops into Greece/Italy/Spain etc to ensure all migrants are registered there
EU wants to pacify Russia by stepping away from NATO - the EU is very anti USA, this is very bad news for countries like Ukraine and Baltic States
There isn't going to be an armed conflict UK vs anyone in EU
What about other countries vs other countries? Do you not know how WWII started?
Junker and the EU have again raised the profile once more on the "need" for an EU army. This is for a number of reasons imo none good
Hmm so given that the UK was anti-EU army this might now be more likely to happen?
Let's be specific.
Yes let's
We will pick out Article 50 date when we wish
Which is not what you said earlier - so good to be clear
2 years later we are gone.
Actually not true. It is possible for the 2 year to be extended by mutual consent under A50 although this is unlikely. However under #fakecontrol we are v much at the mercy of the negotiating position of the other EU states. We have little control over events - we are date takers, not date setters.
Ninfan - I take my hat off to you. It takes massive balls for a Brexiteer to accuse others of narrow mindeness.
Brexiteers win in being open minded as we wish to face qually the entire world, the EU is a protectionist zone granting preferential access to a narrow group of countries populated in large part by caucasians.
I can't figure out if Jambalaya knows how much he's talking like a spin doctor instead of actually thinking things through..
It's like he's constantly trying to sell something.
Not even close to being true - as evidenced by your scare stories with 70m Turks about to invade the UK
Plus as members of the EU we had preferential access to more non-EU economies than our closest peers who are ex-EU (indeed ex-Europe altogether) but who are held up as role models. Some role models....
Which is not what you said earlier - so good to be clear
??? Its exactly what I have said all along, Article 50 is our option and we won't extend the 2 year timeline.
We have total control, we can elect to have no deal at all. Europe is bust, it has no strength to negotaite. It's only a matter of time before we are reading about the impending Italian banking crises, Italy and the ECB have no ammunition left. The collapse of the euro will be ugly and will affect us whuch is why we have to get as far away economically as quickly as possible. We shouldn't rely on exports to the EU as they are going to shrink dramatically as Europe is going to be skint.
EU wants to pacify Russia by stepping away from NATO - the EU is very anti USA, this is very bad news for countries like Ukraine and Baltic States
Trump, the man who would be king, has said on multiple occasions how much he admires Putin and also he would consider pulling the US out of NATO which he says is obsolete and costs the US too much.
He said specifically that:
[i]"But we're taking care of, as an example, the Ukraine. I mean, the countries over there don't seem to be so interested. We're the ones taking the brunt of it. So I think we have to reconsider keep NATO, but maybe we have to pay a lot less toward the NATO itself.
..
if you use Ukraine as an example and that's a great example, the country surrounding Ukraine, I mean, they don’t seem to care as much about it as we do. So there has to be at least a change in philosophy and there are also has to be a change in the cut out, the money, the spread because it's too much."[/i]
Yup, he wants the countries surrounding the Ukraine to be responsible for defending it. That would be Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Belarus and.. err.. Russia.
No you said that we had sovereign power to pick our exit date which is not true. You then changed this to pick our A50 date, which is closer to the truth.
500m people with freedom of movement vs a controlled immigration policy as agreed by whatever government we have.
BTW just seen the Belgian police are bringing van loads of ex-Calais Jungle immigrants back over the border to France, not our problem seems to be their message. The whole thing is a shambles.
Europe is bust,
There is a trend here - not true
it has no strength to negotaite.
Ditto
It's only a matter of time before we are reading about the impending Italian banking crises, Italy and the ECB have no ammunition left.
And dont tell me, we are/were on the hook (from the £350m drawer of nonsense)
The collapse of the euro will be ugly and will affect us whuch is why we have to get as far away economically as quickly as possible.
It most probably will be we cannot escape it impact as the European economies will continue to represent some of our most important economic partners. Playing "them annd us" benefits no one.
Brexiteers win in being open minded as we wish to face equally the entire world
It's a nice spin, but it doesn't quite marry up with the reasons that many people gave for voting Leave, does it?
Do you really think that amongst all the anti-immigration sentiment that significant numbers voted Leave because they wanted more employment opportunities for people from countries outside the EU?
Europe is bust... we have to get as far away economically as quickly as possible
So basically we're so worried about the possibility of the ship sinking that we've punched a massive hole in the hull to escape.
The whole left right arguments around brexit are ridiculous.
Wanting to stay in the EU automatically means you're a sandal wearing looney, and yet the Conservative leader at the time wanted us to stay in.
Most of the out voters comments seem to confirm what I already thought. I haven't heard a convincing argument yet about what the benefits of leaving are. I've heard a lot of might be's based on what the country was like 150 years ago.
Meanwhile, let's all thank UKIP for a bit of light relief with Douglas Carswell's perfect metaphor for the leave campaign- "Don't worry about leaving the moon, we don't need it! We'll be able to make new tide agreements with the sun. And 70 million Clangers are about to invade. Take back control of our seas!"
I had made an edit as my fingers had been typing faster than my brain,
Amazing. I never knew you had a brain labrat.
Brexiteers win in being open minded as we wish to face qually the entire world, the EU is a protectionist zone granting preferential access to a narrow group of countries populated in large part by caucasians.
This is the most amusing thing by these "free for all" types, their complete failure to see the World is becoming unionised.
Jam please tell me shortening my user name is not intended as an insult.
You miss my point about sovereign power and where it lies. You stated we don't have a constitution crisis but we now don't know who makes the sovereign decisions , plebiscite parliament or her majesty via the prime minister . We have a PM who is actively seeking to avoid acting via democratic parliament claiming a legally advisory referendum with a symplistic binary question gives her a sovereign mandate on complex issues not addressed in the referendum. So where does sovereignty lie ?
Crankboy absolutely not, apologies if it came across that way.
As I understand it May has clear legal advice a commons vote isn't necessary. Tories where elected to majority Government and the Queen invited her to form a Government post Cameron. She has executive authority. Most big decisions are taken without a Referendum, it was a mistake for it to be advisory but I can see why that was done in case result was 49.9 vs 50.1 as per Austrian Presidential Election Version 1. As triggering A50 does not require legislation the Lords can't block it (my understanding)
tmh, Euope cannot prevent a Greek default other than a debt write off which is political suicide, Italy cannot bailout its banks, Europe cannot afford to bailout Italy, Spain in a dangerous place. The whole thing is a pack of cards are far worse than sub-prime.
@jools IMO Cameron backed himself into a corner as he couldn't admit the "re-negotiation" had been a total failure. As such he was obliged to campaign for Remain.
You are prone to talking an absolute load of bollockss to be fair though Jamba.
I can't see how an advisory referendum is any kind of mandate for an autocratic decision. Is this Nazi Germany or something ffs?
After today's article about st Helena, I think it is fair to say if brexit happens the U.K. Is screwed. Can't organise a piss up in a brewery comes to mind. The chances of the government being able to negotiate any sensible treaty are less than none.
I can't see how an advisory referendum is any kind of mandate for an autocratic decision. Is this Nazi Germany or something ffs?
And... Godwin! 😆
Will she release her clear legal advise if it is unarguably right why has the Court not dismissed the current case without going to full hearing ? How do you repeal the Act of parliament that takes us in other than by Act of parliament ? Hence the constitutional issues.
Was teasing on the abbreviation thing .
Merkel is in a lot of trouble, also remember AfD was formed to campaign against Germany bailing out Greece. Who are are negotiating with and the environment could look very different in 12 months time.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-refugees-germany-lost-control-crisis-would-turn-back-time-a7320726.html ]Merkel. Turn Back Time[/url]
Here's how this is going to go down.
We'll use this "result" to try and get a better deal. Clearly no one in the government with any sense wants to leave. Racists and people like Jambaliar will continue to talk bollocks. We won't get a better deal for a million reasons already listed. Everyone will forget about the time the UK lost its grip on reality and the Leave voters will quietly deny what they voted for.
I can't see how an advisory referendum is any kind of mandate for an autocratic decision. Is this Nazi Germany or something ffs?
No, it is the nature of our constitution, Carl Gardner, a former government lawyer explains:
In terms of domestic constitutional law, the government may choose to ask Parliament to vote in favour of article 50 notification—but there is no legal or constitutional requirement on it to do so. Notification would be (in domestic law terms) be done under prerogative powers in relation to international affairs, rather than any statutory authority. The government can just go ahead and do it.
[url= http://www.headoflegal.com/ ]Blog here[/url]
Morally though?
And... Godwin!
Yep, damn right.
Morally though?
Yes
tmh, Euope cannot prevent a Greek default other than a debt write off which is political suicide, Italy cannot bailout its banks, Europe cannot afford to bailout Italy, Spain in a dangerous place. The whole thing is a pack of cards are far worse than sub-prime.
We agree on aspects of this and the root cause - the folly that is the Euro - but these alone are not an excuse for the even greater folly that was Brexit
Despite earlier comments, I am sure that you are well aware that we have no liability towards the EZ. That is for them to sort out. So this Europe is about to collapse stuff is simply more material to muddy the waters of an already opaque debate. It does no one any favours.
