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binners - MemberI've always thought he was profoundly stupid, and sociopathic, but this article really is quite sinister. Its a complete endorsement of the Mails 'Enemies of the People headline, and a not-even-thinly-veiled dog-whistle for a campaign of intimidation and harassment of the judiciary.
IDS:
All of that means the decision the Supreme Court will make — which it's due to announce in January — puts the 11 Justices hearing the case in the middle of the most vital constitutional question: which body is supreme, the Law Lords or Parliament? Do unelected judges (about which the public know almost nothing) have the right to supersede the wishes of the elected members of Parliament, and through them the Government?
Do you think he actually believes any of this? Or to put it another way, is he lying, or is he living in a parallel universe where he's leading a valiant defence against the tyranny of the courts trying to overthrow parliament by, er, giving parliament a say when the government doesn't want them to have one.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Doug Stanhope nailed it perfectly
"Patriotism and nationalism do nothing but make you hate people you've never met and take pride in accomplishments you had nothing to do with"
I disagree a little Bob. My nationalism / patriotism is about taking what is good about my culture and offering (not imposing) it to the world, and at the same time talking what is good about the rest of the world and using that to strengthen my own culture.
But frequently you are right.
Do you think he actually believes any of this?
I think that the only thing that snivelling little toad believes in is that him and his mates should be able to do whatever the hell they like, unencumbered by any constraints, including the law
May supported Remain and the Tory manifesto. So that's full EU membership but withdrawing from ECHR (which is not clear is even possible as EU repeatedly refused to answer that question when asked in Parliament). Now post the vote she is honouring the result and pishing on.
TMH you are quite right that the country is not as you thought it was. It's not the UK which has the burka ban is it ? I have downloaded the Casey report, 200 pages. Any comment on German state media censorship ?
The more I look at it the more I see the Government's amendment to Labour bill is genius. A simple trap which will see A50 approved tonight ?
Now post the vote she is honouring the result and pishing on.
Freudian there Jamba
The more I look at it the more I see the Government's amendment to Labour bill is genius. A simple trap which will see A50 approved tonight ?
Except if the courts say vote, then the show is the plans vote won't actually be good enough even with the amendment, will it?
Though I agree dangerous times and high stakes games at the moment.
@mikewsmith “So regardless of the EU referendum, my view is this: if we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its court.”
It's just a statement of fact. Uk HR law is based on our commitments under the ECHR rather than the EU. She didn't say: "I want to leave the ECHR".
Elbent - there may be tiny compromises but the 4 freedoms are indivisible. which is a real issue for the outies 'cos they keep on claiming we can have access tariff free to the single market without movement of people - which is never going to happen
Jamba - it what was is the government amendment genius or a trap? Its a humiliating climbdown and a piece of political manouvering.
May supported Remain and the Tory manifesto.
She was very very very quiet, almost as if she didn't really want to get caught being leave (against Dave) but her RWB Brexit, Brexit mean Brexit, bring me a tank, how dare the courts stop us probably show she was very happy with the result. Unless she is playing the long game with the 3 Amigos to derail the entire process, finish them politically and then mount Goves balls on a little coaster on the PM's desk.
No comment on Germany as not seen enough of it.
A simple trap which will see A50 approved tonight ?
Get some extra shrooms in for Christmas??
and OAB - that is a big stretch to come round to that conclusion the video sounded exactly like she would like out of it, the only point of difference is that her reforms on HR wouldn't be the ones people like
May supported Remain and the Tory manifesto. So that's full EU membership but withdrawing from ECHR
I'm fully prepared to concede that it the Remain & Tory Manifesto said pull out of ECHR then that can be considered to be May's position.
Was it though?
I *thought* the Tory manifesto was to repeal the HRA but we'd continue to be in the ECHR.
Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on imported products after it leaves the EU, a Tory MP has suggested.Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.
He went on a bit more
Grumpysculler - what bad things the ECHR has done?
As per my post above it was a Tory manifesto commitment to replace ECHR with a British Human Rights Bill. Indepedent of whether we where in the EU or not. The government was elected with a majority on that manifesto in 2015. As we will be leaving the EU they won't be able to block our withdrawl from the ECHR
Rees Mogg for when Boris isn't a big enough ****.
That doesn't answer the question.
In other news Davis and Hammond both open to continued contributions. Hilarious.
Exlax Brexit? Getting softer rapidly.
Or the full piccolax?
****-wit brexiteer Tory MP on Five Live now.
What does a red, white, and blue Brexit actually mean?
"A Brexit that's right for Britain"
He declined to expand on that. Great! Thats cleared that up then 🙄
It's the way it goes, avoid, turn. spin and head off on something else and tell you something else it worse. Best way to get round akward questions
What does a red, white, and blue Brexit actually mean?
"A Brexit that's right for [s]Britain Norway France[/s] the USA"
UK manufacturing down, I thought low £ would make it better?
I'm right - Tory Manifesto was to remain in the ECHR:
I'd be amazed if 'remain' want out of the ECHR.
outofbreath - Member
I'm right - Tory Manifesto was to remain in the ECHR:
Yes and there is a great little video of TM telling the world that she wants the UK out of it. She doesn't like it, she doesn't want it.
Tory bloke just gave an insight into what 'opportunities' the Brexit committee is discussing...
"deregulation, in order to help business"
Hope those working class[s] turkeys[/s] brexit voters are all ready. Christmas is coming
Yes and there is a great little video of TM telling the world that she wants the UK out of it.
Cite!
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
I did in the link, that has the text you seem to be twisting around. Honestly it's there.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum
Though not sure I see the point in sharing again, it doesn't fit what you want to hear.
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
The EU of course, them and the remainers who are just talking things down
Interesting cross examination from the judges at Supreme Court. "There is nothing to stop Parliament blocking A50 via an opposition motion"
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
Pretty much anyone and everyone apart from themselves, as they are all infallible. Its in their DNA, hardwired in as part of their Britishness
I did in the link, that has the text you seem to be twisting around. Honestly it's there.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum
Though not sure I see the point in sharing again, it doesn't fit what you want to hear.
So in spite of the fact it wasn't in the Tory manifesto, it isn't happening now they're in government, and nobody is saying it's happening you're saying TM wants to leave the ECHR and your evidence of that is her on one occasion [b]*not*[/b] saying that she wants to leave the ECHR.
Straw man.
Almost nobody wants to leave the HCHR (certainly not the Remain Campaign) it's been around since 1950 so it doesn't require anything onerous.
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
That not only did we **** ourselves over, but we ****ed everyone else over too.
Yay us!
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
Oh shit our major trading partner and massive economy is in trouble, what can we do now that we have screwed our economy and left ourselves out of trading partners etc.....
@cchris (the picture is always very complicated but oil related is still a major driver, these are big ticket investmensts and the low oil price is severely restricting investment and in fact driving plant shut downs)
Total industrial production dropped by 1.3% in October, after falling 0.4% in September. The temporary closure of a major oilfield was the main factor.
BTW Economists had predicted a rise.
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
I would say we should have stayed with it to ensure that did not happen.
@mike the EU has been of declining importance for 10 years. It's a region is Economic distress and we need to refoxis away globally and leaving the EU allows us to do that
[quote=jambalaya ]
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
I know you live in a fantasy world, but do you honestly think that if the EU collapses as you want it to, that an independent UK would be immune from the fallout??? That we would be any less impacted by the implosion you're predicting???
jambalaya - Member
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
Why did you break the EU, was it out of spite? 😆 (I doubt it'll happen anyhow life continues regardless.)
That not only did we * ourselves over, but we * everyone else over too. Yay us!
Which will greatly please anyone who voted leave to **** over the neo-liberal establishment.
Do you think that's a good thing then?
When something's broken you try to fix it, not set fire to it.
The figures are bad even with excluding the oil.
The EU commission has fined banks for fixing rates, I wonder what the UK government would have done, apart from giving them billions of taxpayers money?
"Do you think that's a good thing then?"
No.
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
Dear me you are pitiful, is that what you want? Europe to go bust?
Grumpysculler - what bad things the ECHR has done? Name 1
I disagree with both the Qatada and Ibrahim judgements and think it is wrong of the European court to intervene here. I also think the prisoner votes issue should stay out of Europe.
Recent judgements start to look like they are moving to making law rather than applying law. I disagree with the USA supreme court ruling on same sex marriage and their constitution for similar reasons (even though I believe in same sex marriage).
I believe that the individual right to petition is being abused, leading to the court being overworked.
I also believe that the European court has done a whole pile of good stuff. My argument is with the poster who said "look at all the good stuff the court has done" (even though some of it wasn't from that court) and suggested that because it had done some good in its existence then it must be good overall - which seems to me a weak argument.
Personally, I think the court needs reformed and the distinction between making and applying law needs to be reinforced. The role of the court has been lost over time and it is become too political. It needs to go back to being judicial.
Recent judgements start to look like they are moving to making law rather than applying law.
Isn't this one and the same thing?? No-one knows 100% what a particular statute means until it's tested in court.
Of ceases referred to the echr, what % uphold the uk court ruling and % find against uk court ruling.
The fact we're discussing the ECHR on an EU thread shows how little we (the public) understand all this.
Should never have been put to a public vote IMHO.
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then
I'll probably rush out an buy a copy of the Daily Fail to advise me who I should blame next. Fortunately PISA has me already looking at the Welsh!
Should never have been put to a public vote IMHO.
How true.
Should or shouldn't be put to the vote - doesnt matter - it was. Live with it.
What does a red, white, and blue Brexit actually mean?
Why the angst over this - its a simple tag line. It means that TM will seek a unique outcome for the UK - good luck Theresa! - nothing new in this, they have been saying that all along. Plenty to criticise but that is hardly up there with the important issues.
It's funny THM. I'm finding more and more to laugh at in Brexit.
Perhaps we should have a news blackout for a week? Other than the SC ruling, now't is going to happen of significance
True again
My mate Bob still hasn't got his £36k job and doesn't understand why it's not all sorted, rumour has it the business he works for has stopped importing European furniture due to cost and lack of UK demand and may be downsizing...
Of ceases referred to the echr, what % uphold the uk court ruling and % find against uk court ruling.
It's not too far off 50:50 of those that go to judgement (60:40 maybe), but the overwhelming majority of cases that go to the ECtHR get filtered and never reach judgement. So if you look at the % of submitted cases, it's probably in single digits.
the overwhelming majority of cases that go to the ECtHR get filtered and never reach judgement.
This is one of the popular misrepresentations of the ECHR I think.
Certain papers happily crow on about how the pedo/rapist/terrorist/baddie is [i]"taking his case to the European Court of Human Rights"[/i] but they fail to report that the ECHR then threw it out as complete nonsense.
In fact a huge number of cases are struck out or declared inadmissible:
[img] 
[/img]
(Sauce: [url= http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Stats_analysis_2015_ENG.pdf ]ECHR stats (PDF)[/url])
iirc its something like 99.5% go our way so 10 cases a year dont??
(im not sure if you count teresa may missing appeal deadlines in that number 😉 )
but it gives the little englanders somethging to rant about
In terms of UK violations of the convention, in 2015 there were 13 such judgements made and the UK was found to be violating the convention in 4 of them.
Source:
(page 11)
Hence the shouting about the echr being bad is bull. This is something I already knew but I find it amazing that people moan about it without having an idea about h many cases are overturned and and on what fine points of law they may rest.
But let's not let information get in the way.
Also second the entire European court is not the EU!
Anyone know when we can expect a result on today's motion?
Thought it was being voted on this evening?
@oldman €/£ was down around these levels in 2009 and 2011 (from memory)
@el_bent if we had PR it's likley UKIP would have had a far bigger vote share than 12% imo
@matty later tonight, 10 or 11pm ?
The motion is hardly a climb down if May wins hands down is it ? Publishes a [s]wishy washy[/s] sorry detailed Brexit negotiation plan at last minute in March and via the amendment means there has been explicit A50 approval. Job's a good 'un
Dear me you are pitiful, is that what you want? Europe to go bust?
We've been in the EU for 40 years and we've done all we could to stop their idiocy and all we get is critism and snide remarks that we are "holding back their progress". We have repeatedly pointed out the fatal flaws of the euro but they have just ploughed on regardless and expanded it to new members like Greece.
Pigface we have tried and failed to get them to see their folly. We (Cameron) offered them a golden opportunity to make some key chnages which could have avoided the Leave win but they only have Plan A in mind. Watch the segment on Newsnight, it's depressing how blind is the ex-EU commsioner.
Their fate is their responsibility. We must distance oirselves as much a possible as quickly as possible.
We have repeatedly pointed out the fatal flaws of the euro but they have just ploughed on regardless and expanded it to new members like Greece.
If you're talking about the currency, you'll have to explain the fatal flaw to this stupid bystander, as I see no fatal flaw.
We must distance oirselves as much a possible as quickly as possible.
Start up the engines… what's the eventual distinction? Moor just off the east coast of the USA?
"There is nothing to stop Parliament blocking A50 via an opposition motion"
That is interesting, as I thought that opposition motions were in no way binding on the government. Need to do some reading…
Anyone know when we can expect a result on today's motion?
Thought it was being voted on this evening?
Passed 448 vs 75. Timetable agreeed for A50 by end March. Must be a decent chance the Surpreme Court case is dead.
@kelvin it was a legal argument so there can be a counter argument, ie not certain.
Passed 448 vs 75. Timetable agreeed for A50 by end March. Must be a decent chance the Surpreme Court case is dead.
Well I suppose the court case is now irrelevant in the context of brexit, as parliament have technically now been consulted, but it still needs to be ruled on no? To prevent government bypassing parliament in future, which is the broader scope of the case?
Captainsasquatch. Acoording to Jamba and THM the euro will collapse 2 years ago and Greece will be thrown out 2 years ago. Dunno why it didn't happen
There is an issue in that it prevents countries devaluing if they need to.
Captainsasquatch. Acoording to Jamba and THM the euro will collapse 2 years ago and Greece will be thrown out 2 years ago. Dunno why it didn't happen
I hate it when other people have to answer on Jamba's behalf.
Cheers. 😀
If you're talking about the currency, you'll have to explain the fatal flaw to this stupid bystander, as I see no fatal flaw.
TMH is far more eloquent than I. I deleted what I was typing as it got a bit long, basically one monetary policy (eg interest rate) but many fiscal policies (eg country by country tax, spend and borrowing), no banking union (whatever central regulations say local oversight varies widely). Countries within the euro don't guaranty each other and it is widely believed the euro could not survive the default of one soveriegn member. All this creates huge stresses which many believe mean the euro could never work and have been saying so since it was created.
Court case is not irrelevant. Todays motion does not cover what the courts are looking at.
WE MUST hgave a vote in parliament on the triggering of article 50. todays motion merely says that the government expects MPS will vote for triggering article 50
mattyfez - Member
... but it still needs to be ruled on no? To prevent government bypassing parliament in future, which is tje broader scope of the case?
No sure about the court case but at least the majority of the politicians fall in line with the will of the people. 😛
Jamba - wasn't the Euro supposed to collapse two years ago? I seem to remember you stating it would.
Passed 448 vs 75. Timetable agreeed for A50 by end March. Must be a decent chance the Surpreme Court case is dead.
How do you come to that conclusion?
EDIT TJ you changed your post in inc editing out TMH who has consistently said the euro was fatally flawed. You removed the reference to Greece.
TJ I said that's what should happen, a Greek default. I worked on the contingency plans for a Greek default in 2010 (at direct instruction of the UK regulator, applied to all banks) and potential euro collapse as a result. The problems haven't gone away they have expanded due to being pushed off into the future.
@Nipper Parliament has approved the A50 timetable which means they have approved invoking A50. That's the argument and consistent with remark (note not judgement) by one of the Supreme court judges.
No - you said thats what [b]would[/b] happen. I told you at the time you were wrong.
tjagain - Member
No - you said thats what would happen. I told you at the time you were wrong.
Yaa, they are just prolonging the inevitable ...
It's just common sense innit who are going to give free money to Greece forever? Germany?
If they want to maintain EURO they need to cut their losses ... cut them loose.
Greece is like a business selling at a loss everyday with no chance or recouping the cost.
It will happen TJ. Greece is bust and Germans aren't going to get back their €100bn and the French their €75bn etc etc. Merkel and Hollande wanted to push it beyond their elections. Obama went to Greece on his last road trip to try and get some agreement on "debt relief", no doubt in my mind he's worried Trump will block an IMF rescue and/or impose very harsh terms and/or insist it's entirely the EU's problem
The court will rule on the law. It may be they think parliament needs to be consulted, it may be they think an Act is needed.
Today's vote would mean nothing in the latter event.
Of course it does now mean, should the government try to rely on this vote, that parliament is free to propose a motion and expect to to be respected at any time during the process. Parliament may not feel that what May puts in front of them is a sufficient plan and may respond accordingly.
Parliament has approved the A50 timetable which means they have approved invoking A50. That's the argument and consistent with remark (note not judgement) by one of the Supreme court judges.
😯 I don't think that's how it works.
Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.
That'd be private financial markets who pulled the plug then?
The bailout money mainly goes toward paying off Greece’s international loans, rather than making its way into the economy. And the government still has a staggering debt load that it cannot begin to pay down unless a recovery takes hold.
[url= http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0 ]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0[/url]
Some of the repayments are to those same said private financial markets.
Admittedly Greece lied and the EU was running rampant, but it's not the fault of the Euro and it could have been managed a damned sight better by the financial markets.
The Euro seemed to function quite well up until the financial markets pulled the rug and Greece got into difficulties. Even if Greece had lied, the basic premise of the EU would have supported them to get out of the hole and not run away with the ladder.
More importantly.... is this going to have any effect on cheese?