What £10 billion saving? The numbers get bigger with no justification
Yes we did need visas. I have a passport full of them. Usually just obtained at the border. After leaving the EU we would be treated like most other non eu entrants and require visas to enter which can no longer be obtained at the border but need to be done in advance and cost money.
That 10bn saving was all for the NHS wasn't it? Don't remember anything about spending it on lawyers. No buses painted with "Leave the EU so we can pay lawyers".
Anyway, speaking of that NHS promise
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
I always wondered how Vote Leave could claim we give the EU £350 million a week and £10 billion a year.
Maths would suggest that at least one of those figures is very wrong (and evidence suggests that both of them are! 😉 )
Don't get bogged down by facts Graham, live the quit squad way where all things are true provided they agree with the general view that Britain isn't great but cutting off one free access to our biggest non-domestic market and losing a source of skilled staff will make it great.
Ask Jamba he sort you out with some post-fact maths to square the circle.
To quote May, Brexit means bullshit
I thought they had already abandoned that "promise" the day after the referendum, saying it was a "mistake" to use it.
Did we need visas to travel to Europe before '73 (Soviet block excluded) ?
No.
Remind me how big the ISIS threat was in 1973.
IRA back in '73.
I remember flying to Dublin with no more than a bank card as ID in the early 90s.
Orwell made some good points about creating an enemy to unite people. ISIS weren't a threat to this country until we made them one - there is a sensible conversation to be had about whether we needed to make an enemy of them ;and arguably we did) but they weren't initially. Immigrants are another good example of a created enemy.
DrJ - we did. You got them atther border - a stamp in your passport but it still was a visa - just one that was free and obtained at the border
oldnpastit - Member
Apparently we're not going to get £350M/week for the NHS after all:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge
No news there. Every one of the five reasons used by the BSers was a lie. Their campaign made yS look honest which is a massive achievement in its own right. But they both share the same belief - that ends justify the means however dishonest the means may be.
Don't worry you'll not need a visa to enter the Free Yorkshire zone, just a copy of your bank statement (Yorkshire Bank) or your fully stuffed Mattress. We need to make sure you can afford to buy the beers.
But they both share the same belief - that ends justify the means however dishonest the means may be.
Well,let's see if folk remember the lesson when the next Tory election manifesto comes out.
Don't worry you'll not need a visa to enter the Free Yorkshire zone, just a copy of your bank statement (Yorkshire Bank) or your fully stuffed Mattress. We need to make sure you can afford to buy the beers
Yorkshire Bank which is owned by the aussies?
Did we need visas to travel to Europe before '73 (Soviet block excluded) ?
I have a very old passport full of stamps from French and Spanish passport control from crossing back-and-forth over the Pyrenees.
At what point are the idiots just going to own up and admit this was all a really bad idea (or more likely they will out of their inflated egos and arrogance press on irrespective and present it as some success - free trade with Aus ffs - and blame others for their failure as Fox is already doing)and apologise - if they want a volunteer scapegoat to go off to Brussels and wear sackcloth and ashes ill willingly put my hand up just to put and end to this farce.
Loved the pictures of the EU flags at last night of the proms.
I loved the Brexiters getting all shirty about it even more.
After article 50, that figure has been predicted to rise to around £25m a week, so likely to more than wipe out the costs of paying into the EU.
the urge to bluster is universal among reckless men who have risked everything. They boom that events have proved them right, as if booming can drown the thought that they have made a colossal error. As their mistakes can cause the worst damage, politicians, propagandists and the politically committed in general are the worst blusterers of all.
We must never under estimate the ability of our leaders to **** up any situation for the most amount of money possible.
It's OK - if we promise to take the asylum seekers from Sangatte, then we'll get visa free travel. They did the same for the Turks didn't they?
I bet the brexit department will need headed note paper. That paper will need a logo. That logo will need to be designed by beardy no socks. Obviously the design consultation will need to go to tender. No doubt a committee will have to go through all the tenders and have long drawn out business lunches deciding.
After all they've got £350000000 to spunk away in the most useless way possible.
The Liam Fox thing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37324491
Check my logic for me here, someone?
Fox said this:
""This country is not the free-trading nation it once was. We have become too lazy, and too fat on our successes in previous generations," he said."
Is that not the same thing as saying that being part of the EU made/makes trade easier than being outside? Being that we're the 5th (or whatever it is now) largest economy on the planet- a situation built by being inside Europe.
This seems to the obvious corollary to what he said, but it seems so obvious that I need to check I'm not missing a point.
Anyone?
When was it the free trading nation it once was or are we back to the Crimson Permanent Assurance thing again. Is he confusing free trade with simply pinching other peoples countries which is generally frowned upon in these more enlightened times.
"Yorkshire Bank which is owned by the aussies?"
Them colonials can ave what they like as long as the buy the beer.
Well,let's see if folk remember the lesson when the next Tory election manifesto comes out.
Why Tory - they should all be the same and held account for what they say.
You "may" find this week's leader in The Economist of interest Doc, since it is entitled "Art of the lie" with the subtitle
Politicians have always lied. Does it matter if they leave the truth behind entirely.
What Trump, the BSers and yS did was very much leaving truth behind entirely and did so/do so willfully. I will let you read The Economist article yourself. Suffice to say that at the very least I agree with their semi-conclusion that
It is tempting to thibk that, when policies sold on dodgy prospectuses ([i]eg Scotland's Future[/i]) start to fail, lied to supporters might see the error of their ways. The worst part of post-truth politics, though, is that this self-correction cannot be relied on
Indeed.
they should all be the same and held account for what they say.
Indeed so.
Why Tory
Because their porkies seem to be more significant, convincing the ordinary punter that policies which will not benefit them in the slightest are in fact in their best interest. Turkeys, Christmas, that stuff.
Oh I see.
well they did lie about austerity, true, but in the end that was a good thing. Markets fooled and they ran an expansionary fiscal policy instead. Basta**s.
£10bn+ saving per anum pays for a lot of Brexit lawyers
FFS stop repeating that BS - we all know the real figure & it'd be greatly appreciated I'd you'd stop treating everyone like fools.
Otherwise you just come across as a condescending f****r!
you cannot expect our resident expert with a degree in maths and decades of working in the upper echelons of the city to be able to accurately state the financial figures
I wonder what happen when promises in the Better Together programme start to disappear Thm .How many ships are being built on the Clyde? Did pensions turn out to be safe with Better Together and did a no vote guarantee EU membership as they claimed?
I wonder what happen when promises in the Better Together programme start to disappear
What on earth gives you the idea that any of them give the tiniest whiff of fart gas about that? You really haven't understood this, have you?
mrleb £10bn (approx £200m a week) is fhe net figure, per anum and rising as the UK outperforms the EU (contribution calculation includes a relative element)
Interesting coverage from Germany recently as they calculated their EU budget contribution will have to rise by at least €5bn, as you can imagine many are not happy about that. Sarkozy was pretty firey too this weekend as election warms up saying he would take various firm steps to deport terorist suspects, when told that was against eu law he said he would do it anyway and that the eu would ha e to change or just accept it.
@gordi an iS would be in freefall right now with oil at $45 and a very uncertain EU status, sent to the backnof the que due to pressure from Spain worried about Catalonia. The currency question still not answered of course
The currency question still not answered of course
Yes, it has been. Stiglitz admitted they fu88ed it up. One example where lying came back to bite the perpetrators on the backside.
If only the same would happen with the Brexit BS!
Got that quote from Mr Stiglitz THM?
Words to that effect, yes thanks Scottie!
They wont get away with that charade again. New joke strategy is to pretend that the Euro is the saviour! One day you boys will get some decent, economically literate leaders!
Or perhaps, the ends really do justify any means after all?
Jambalaya, you keep mentioning Sarkozy but he is not ahead in the polls. Juppe has a better chance of winning it.
Quite amazing that none of the Leave campaign leaders are not pushed more explain their promises.
Got that quote from Mr Stiglitz THM?
Yes thanks - and his current views that Dear Nicola is wrong to believe that the Euro is the correct option for Scotland.
He and I are now aligned on what would need to happen in terms of the currency arrangement - he juts took his time. Still we got there in the end - ok the SNP havent but dont forget.....ends jutsify.....
Got that quote from Mr Stiglitz THM?
Yes thanks - do you not read papers?
Joseph's language is more diplomatic of course - why bite the hand that feeds you?
2014: "The currency is a non-issue". Did he really say that? Ends justify...
2016: "I think in hindsight that may have been a mistake. It would be a mistake to join the euro by the way, so what they would have needed to do is perhaps to resurrect the Scottish pound, and let it float."
He saw the light eventually, unlike your leader.
I think in hindsight that [b]may[/b] have been a mistake.
Thank you. Trying to revise history? Oh teh ironing.
Thank you.
Pleasure - you need some truth up there
Now Prof Stiglitz has told BBC Scotland the currency proposal "may have been a mistake" - not on presentational grounds, [b]but on economic ones[/b].
Economics always trumps [s]lying[/s] political spinning in the end!
Still keep living the lie if it makes you feel better - the truth is far less palatable.
Lying? It's what you do -as I've just highlighted in this thread.
ah, saltire tinted glasses!
anyone can make their own minds up
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37219612
From minute 6 onwards and after minute 9
He now argues for a Scottish pound as I argued at the time. They screwed up on the currency issue. Obvious at the time (remember the thread) and he sees it as obvious now.
"do you not read papers"
Do you think you'll find the truth in the papers? Thm
