[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Brown Brexit. To match the shade of bullshit being fed to the public.

Red white and blue.
One that benefits the french, Dutch, czechs and slovaks.

Christ on a bendybus! She was only stood in front of a bloody RAF helicopter, while visiting 'Our Boys' on the frontline, when she said it. There may possibly be a jingoism button she failed to press there, but I can't think of one

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/06/theresa-may-calls-for-red-white-and-blue-brexit ]Who the **** is writing this script?[/url]

Tellingly... she's started to do that thing that Gordon Brown did, when he was anointed as PM by his party.

Where they're clearly been told by their media coaches to smile from time to time as they look too serious. But because this emotion is so unnatural to them, instead of looking warm and friendly, they look like a serial killer who is about to hack you to death, then eat your entrails.

[b]Just stop it!!!! All of it!!! The creepy smiling, and the red,white and blue shite!!![/b] 😥

Well now we know why there's been no progress- it's taken all this time to dream up this new slogan to replace "a titanic success". Mission accomplished.

I would like a brexit with an aroma of fresh elderberries and the sound of grass blowing gently in the wind.

Meanwhile in the Supreme Court. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

To be fair I imagine that many a kipper will get their first hard-on for years when they read that headline on the front page of the express/sun/mail/telegraph tomorrow

I cant believe that May doesnt know how trite it sounds to the rest of us, she just doesnt care.

I think she knows shes just a 1 term PM Aand wants to leave a legacy of a patriotic Tory who tried her very best to make a success of Brexit

She needs to avoid the forced grin thing....

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She does look like she's following the Gordon Brown model. If only there was an opposition to take advantage....

[quote=binners ]She needs to avoid the forced grin thing....

[img] [/img]

Oh and that stuff the Daily Wail is getting hot under the collar about is a reference to a spearheaded given in 2015.

Well we dont really need to do too much more talking, we know where the EUs lie

First, unity. Unity is the strength of the European Union. President Juncker and I are determined to preserve the unity and the interests of EU 27. This determination is shared by all governments.

Second, being in the European Union comes with rights and benefits. Third countries can never have the same rights and benefits since they are not subject to the same obligations.

Third, negotiations will not start before notification.

Fourth, the single market and its full freedoms, its four freedoms, are indivisible. Cherry picking is not an option.

so, lets get on with it

so, lets get on with it

even Cake & Eat it Johnson is starting to wise up

He reckons negotiations will be wrapped up in <18mths, which means theres not much to negotiate!

I think all thats open to question is how much of an international laughing stock we make ourselves before we have to accept the inevitable.

Everyone with anything between their ears knows that there is no cherrypicking to be done. Its all or nothing. When they say that thats the only deal on the table, they really aren't joking!

*awaits Jammers coming along with his fantasy wishlist*

Mr Barnier, making his first public speech on the issue, was appointed to the post of chief Brexit negotiator on 1 October this year by European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, who said he "wanted an experienced politician for this difficult job".

The chief negotiator said he had spent time speaking to European member governments and said the Brexit negotiations had been informed by four main principles.

These included the "determination for unity" and a pledge to not start negotiations before being officially notified by the UK of its desire to leave, via the triggering of Article 50.

He also said: "Being a member of EU comes with rights and benefits. Third countries (non members as the UK will be after Brexit) can never have the same rights and benefits since they are not subject to the same obligations.

"The single market and its four freedoms (which includes freedom of movement) are indivisible. Cherry picking is not an option."

I know she is a lady but is it OK to call Enola a ****?

I think all that's open to question is how much of an international laughing stock we make ourselves before we have to accept the inevitable.

We can't even send a gunboat anymore to intimidate Johnny foreigner (fleet manoeuvres recently)

[img] [/img]

Everyone with anything between their ears knows that there is no cherrypicking to be done. Its all or nothing. When they say that thats the only deal on the table, they really aren't joking!

Respectfully, I disagree. Both sides are merely outlining their starting positions. I would suggest that everyone who has studied EU history knows full well that there will be compromise of sorts. Which is one reason why this current fannying around is not helpful

The only things to be settled are how much do we owe the EU - estimates are around 60 billion and how we pay this and what euro institutions like europol we are going to remain in. There is no deal possible on trade as its clear to get tariff free access to the single market we need to accept freedom of movement.

We might see some nasty bargaining over the EU citizens in the UK and the UK citizens in the EU

Of course UK can cherry pick.

EU bureaucrats can say whatever they like.

What can they do? Embargo UK? Punish the individual EU states that want to deal with UK?

I double dare them.

Well the French do have nuclear weapons

binners - Member
Well the French do have nuclear weapons

Of course UK can cherry pick.

What are you on about?

We will be a third country as regards the EU soon, so any agreement that gives us access beyond that of any other third country that doesn't have an agreement needs, er... agreement! The days when we could wave our veto and contributions around and make the EU do what we want are coming to an end. Soon. Might be wise to belatedly seek more common ground with countries that have the audacity to not have English as a their first language, and be sited conveniently close by. Agreement is needed…

Of course UK can cherry pick.

I think he means that people from the UK will literally have to cherry pick, and other fruit picking, due to lack of immigrants.

kelvin - Member
What are you on about?

We will be a third country as regards the EU soon, so any agreement that gives us access beyond that of any other third country that doesn't have an agreement needs, er... agreement! The days when we could wave our veto and contributions around and make the EU do what we want are coming to an end. Soon. Might be wise to belatedly seek more common ground with countries that have the audacity to not have English as a their first language, and be sited conveniently close by. Agreement is needed…

It's negotiation innit.

EU bureaucrats can set whatever rules they want. We bend it.

We can set whatever rules we want. They bend it.

We negotiate.

Or we can play the rules bending game. 😆

What can they do? Embargo? I double dare them.

HoratioHufnagel - Member
I think he means that people from the UK will literally have to cherry pick, and other fruit picking, due to lack of immigrants.

Of course UK can cherry pick...What can they do?

Ah, so we're going to [i]force[/i] EU countries to trade freely with us?

Maybe send round Danny Dyer and Ross Kemp to sort them out?

[i]"We ain't payin no import tax. Y'get me bruv?"[/i]

TJ any "defined benefit" type pension is a ponzi scheme, as soon as payments in stop it fails also the assumptions for "fully funded" are a best heroic or at worst a fantasy. There is simply no way of knowing the future inc how ling people will live

EU exit liabilities, a matter for discussion varying between zero and the ludicrous numbers from campaigners. Things like pensions for EU bureaucrats are not our liability in my view but I can see us paying those as and when they fall due, €6bn over 30yrs I believe (even that seems a very high figure). As for loans etc that's a fantasy. None. Research programmes, we have already said we will fund/match grants to our Universities, broader programmes are not our concern once we are gone.

Of course there is "Cherry picking" - Canada didn't sign up for THE single market, together with the EU they oucked the areas on which they wanted co-operations.

Just caught up with last nights Newsnight, Evan Davies was absolutely priceless

OK, Good luck with that

He said to the incredibly dull and faceless EU bureaucrat who was claiming suport for the EU has been going up in Europe since the Brexit vote

Red, White and Blue Brexit. Genius as no one is poking fun at Brexit is Brexit anymore 🙂

I jumped the gun a bit declaring the Supreme Court hearing boring. It got pretty interesting.

Dont Pannick brexiteers 🙂

GrahamS - Member
Ah, so we're going to force EU countries to trade freely with us?

Force? No force needed. It's all about money.

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other.

Sort the EU bureaucrats ... what can they do? Embargo the individual nations?

I double dare them punish the individual nations who want to trade with the UK. 😆

centralscrutinizer - Member
I jumped the gun a bit declaring the Supreme Court hearing boring. It got pretty interesting.

Dont Pannick brexiteers

The fate is sealed I am afraid for the remainders.

I double dare the Supreme Court to reject the will of the people.

I double dare the Supreme Court to interfere with the Govt.

I double dare the tail wagging the dog.

Jamba - stop talking nonsense. You can keep calling it a ponzi scheme but it isn't. Go read a dictionary

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other.

Right so if, as you seem to be saying chewkw, individual EU countries CAN make actually trade agreements with whomever they like without being punished then... umm.. why are we leaving?

I mean, [i]not[/i] being free to make trade agreements was one of the best arguments I heard for leaving. And I suspect, a major factor in a pretty decent number of leave votes.

Gisela nails it here

Research programmes, we have already said we will fund/match grants to our Universities

As far as I am aware UK Govt will only do this for successful funding bids up until we leave the EU.

Nothing has been said on how this loss of unconstrained fundamental research funding will be replaced post-Brexit. There has been some muttering about "research to drive business" which isn't what the EU money funds, and the double accountancy that is the Global Challenges Research Fund siphoning money away from fundamental research.

There has been no statement on how the UK will maintain its position as a world leader in fundamental research and every time the question is asked there is deafening silence. This probably explains why many researchers at my institute are looking to leave the UK (quite a few have already got offers elsewhere) and why the ones who are remaining are very, very concerned for the future.

So please, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, stop fibbing or talking about things you obviously know nothing about.

I double dare the Supreme Court to interfere with the Govt.

The job of the Supreme Court is to interpret and rule on the law.
If the government is doing something legally dubious then it is absolutely the duty of the Supreme Court to "interfere" with that.

And NHS workers can keep denying it and misunderstanding how their pensions work - which is worse?

NHS workers (currently) have a (potentially vulnerable) unfunded occupational scheme whose only present saving grace is the fact that it is backed-stopped by the Exchequer, Beyond that it has the characteristics of a ponzi scheme. Thinking it is safe is folly.

Gisela nails it here

Nails what exactly? A UK coffin?

I realise that there isn't any point in trying to explain the difference between accepting the outcome (yes/no) and defining how it will happen (never stated or voted upon), but really, please try and understand. Maybe once you do the country can get around and unite to try and make something of this shitshower you have landed us in rather than your constant triumphalist cry that a minority of hardliners can claim that 37% of the country can dictate what happens for all of us.

You wanted democracy and sovereignty but you get it for the whole country not just the bits and people you want.

 

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other

Negotiate is the key word there. We don't get to ignore the EU and pick what we want, we have to negotiate.

We will either be seeking an agreement with the EU for when we leave, or, far more likely, if the long term EU countries have any sense, we will leave with no agreement, and then be seeking to get one sorted ASAP from the position of a n other third country. But agreement is what we will indeed be after… not us cherry picking what we want.

Related to all this, you all saw Trump's latest Twitter talk of a 35% import tax on goods made abroad by USA companies? And big tax breaks for those "bringing jobs back". And ramping up the race to the bottom as regards Corp tax?

We just negotiate with the individual countries with good incentives for both sides to trade with each other.

GrahamS - Member
Right so if, as you seem to be saying chewkw, individual EU countries CAN make actually trade agreements with whomever they like without being punished then... umm.. why are we leaving?

The "paper works". The irony is that there are so much paper works to deal with it's slowing UK exit. See the EU bureaucratic entanglement ... 😆

In the meantime do let the PM warm up her chair first before we move into full swing.

Nobody in this world can magically turn things around with the bureaucratic entanglement. Unless you are Stalin or Mao in that case it will be over night change.

I mean, not being free to make those trade agreements was one of the best arguments I heard for leaving. And I suspect that a major factor in a pretty decent number of leave votes.

Someone please invent a new hobby of smashing the EU bureaucratic system please. 😛

GrahamS - Member

I double dare the Supreme Court to interfere with the Govt.

The job of the Supreme Court is to interpret and rule on the law.
If the government is doing something legally dubious then it is absolutely the duty of the Supreme Court to "interfere" with that.

The elephant is already inside the room does the law see that?

Interpret at will ... 😆

UK has been sucked into the concept of EU bureaucratic system for so long some people are no longer able to think for themselves. They become too scared even to stand on their own feet without the guidance from the EU bureaucratic system.

😯

teamhurtmore - Member
UK has been sucked into the concept of EU bureaucratic system for so long some people are no longer able to think for themselves. They become too scared even to stand on their own feet without the guidance from the EU bureaucratic system.

😯

I know it is a bit dramatic for a dull day I must admit. 😆

We could be giving away our huge "home market" just as other big markets put up barriers to us.

Good to see that the Scottish advocate-general gave the devolution issue its appropriate consideration

I suppose a straight answer was too much to expect. I'll try again..

If individual EU countries [i]are[/i] in fact free to negotiate their own trade deals then why was "trade freedom" a key point in the Vote Leave campaign??

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[Source: [url= http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html ]Vote Leave[/url]]

Who buys Hugh's?

Ill have a dozen grants, a laurie and a couple of fearnley-whittingstalls please, grocer!

Boo Kelvin - editing spoil-sport!! 😉

Long live the UK beurocratic system!
And all the new beurocratic hurdles our companies and people will be made to jump through just to sell, live, or work across a swimmable stretch of water!

[edit: I have in no way made my point well here at all, I admit]
[but, harmonisation across EU doesn't necessarily mean a more beurocratic landscape]

The elephant is already inside the room does the law see that?

Ah yes, but the mouse has all the coconuts.

..Zombie maggots..

..Wibble.

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binners - Member
I think all thats open to question is how much of an international laughing stock we make ourselves

The amount of stick I have had to put up with recently hurts.

I think the low point was being called (albeit jovially) Brexit Boy.

The UK really was the butt of many a joke before the referendum.
"so we can sell our products freely"... "You can already, but besides, what do you produce?"
"protect our industry, innit"..."what industry?" laughed the Germans.

kelvin - Member
We could be giving away our huge "home market" just as other big markets put up barriers to us.

GrahamS - Member
If individual EU countries are in fact free to negotiate their own trade deals then why was "trade freedom" a key point in the Vote Leave campaign??

Nope, does not work that way because opportunities are for everyone.

I have tried rearranging these words, but still can't find any actual meaning in them.

Is it a TMay quote?

Very simple we ask them to break their own rules because it is all about money.

Right.

So if that was an option... why didn't we do it ourselves when we were part of the EU?

GrahamS - Member

The elephant is already inside the room does the law see that?

Ah yes, but the mouse has all the coconuts.

..Zombie maggots..

..Wibble.

Obvious is obvious innit coz you (remainders) just got your knickers twisted.

Yes, it's like the "programmed" ZMs.

At least it seems like our Prime Minister is getting down to the detail of the Brexit, it's going to be red, white and blue 🙄

This is a confusing develpopment [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38224169 ]mp vote tomorrow[/url]

Am I right in thinking MPs are going to have to basicaly promise to pass A50 in parlement when the time comes, in return for being given May's brexit plan, but the Government "would not confirm any specific form of document on any specific timetable to fit with the commitment to publish a Brexit plan, apart from saying that it will be before Article 50."

So wheres the motivation for MPs to go along with that? 😕

Big climbdown from May tho. Nice to see. I think she has realised that she is going to lose the appeal

Labour just want to be seen to have acheived "something"', so this empty gesture suits both sides, and lets things carry on just as they are…

Oh, there are Labour and Tory MPs, of both Leave and Remain persuasion, that want parliament to do its job, but the leadership on both sides want Brexit sorted as quietly and "apolitically" as possible behind the scenes, with MPs kept out of it.

At least it seems like our Prime Minister is getting down to the detail of the Brexit, it's going to be red, white and blue

(Fighting the urge to make a misogynistic joke about women being more interested in the colour than what is under the bonnet...)

GrahamS - Member

Very simple we ask them to break their own rules because it is all about money.

Right.

So if that was an option... why didn't we do it ourselves when we were part of the EU?

Negotiate within EU? Are you trying the line " ... to be in the club in order to change the club rule ..." ... Again? 😯

UK have been having weak leaders for sometime now so very weak that they dare not even give the people a referendum until ex-PM Cameron, who had no choice because the EU ZMs got extremely arrogance sensing the weak UK govt went for hammering the UK PM but guess what, the people come to the rescue of the ex-PM or the New PM by sticking two fingers up to the EU ZMs.

Most UK leaders and their cronies of career political elites do not have the guts rock their own career boat ... in a way UK was slowly rotting away tbh.

Life has been too good for the politicians and their supporters but nobody gives a flying pigs except blindly complying with the EU ZMs.

Labour just want to be seen to have acheived "something"', so this empty gesture suits both sides, and lets things carry on just as they are…

Indeed.

Hats off the Giv lawyer for making the best of a very bad job today. With a lawyer son, its been quite an interesting afternoon of stuff to debate suprisingly. Cant see the appeal winning, but some clever, if flawed, arguments. Smart guys.

Negotiate within EU? Are you trying the line " ... to be in the club in order to change the club rule ..." ... Again?

No, I am futilely trying to make some sense of what you are saying.

You are claiming that other EU countries will happily break EU rules for the chance to have an individual trade deal with the UK. Yes?

And there is nothing the EU can do to stop them. Yes?

All I am asking you is this: if these rules are so easily broken, without any punishment, then why didn't we just do [i]that[/i] ourselves, instead of leaving the EU?

in a way UK was slowly rotting away tbh

Was it?

[img] [/img]
([url= http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=GB-EU ]Sauce: World Bank[/url])

kelvin - Member
We could be giving away our huge "home market" just as other big markets put up barriers to us.

Nope, does not work that way because opportunities are for everyone.

I have tried rearranging these words, but still can't find any actual meaning in them.

Is it a TMay quote?

Negotiating from within was possible. Once out there will be no negotiation. It'll be a case take it or leave it based on what is acceptable to the necessary number of EU countries to get any agreement at all.

How do you give away your home market? Because you sound like it is one sided affair.

The EU is losing a big chunk of their home market… but they're not giving it away, we're taking it away.
They get to keep 'nearly all' of it though, unlike us.

In reality we would be taking away a small amount from each ofvthe member states whilst losing a comparatively enormous amount...

GrahamS - Member
All I am asking you is this: if these rules are so easily broken, without any punishment, then why didn't we just do that instead of leaving the EU?

The rules are not easily broken from within because of the political inept of the individual nation leaders.

This is because majority of the EU leaders are "infected" by the views that they should look after their own personal political career self interest only. The become the EU ZM "collective drones".

The will to allow change or to risk own political career is simply too much to bear for most of those political leaders. It is much better to bow to the EU ZM rules to justify their own existence and by showing "unity" amongst the EU nations states leader. i.e. everyone is looking at each other for the first move to see what will happen.

Therefore, it will be Impossible to break the rules from within as the EU ZM drones will apply rules blindly and can justify their action whatever that is.

Now that UK is out of the ZM EU club the EU ZM drones are at a lost to apply the EU ZM blind club rules, because UK is not an ordinary small drone like some of them.

The irony is UK have to be out in order to change the predictable reaction of the EU ZM rules.

Bear in mind, many of their own people are not exactly happy with their current arrangement (EU rules on individual states) so let's see which of those EU ZM drones will play the roulette with a Glock.

Playing roulette with Glock. 😆

Above is a post from a crack den in meadowell (part of Newcastle)

ZM Zambia (according to ISO)
ZM Zu Mir (German Command)
ZM Zeitgeist Movement
ZM Zombie Mode (gaming, Counter-Strike)
ZM Zone Message
ZM Zone Marker (VHF Station Location Marker)
ZM Zettameter (10^21, one sextillion)
zM Zeptometer (10^-21, one sextillionth)
ZM Zuhair Murad (Lebanese fashion designer)
ZM Zware Metalen (Dutch: Heavy Metal; music website and forum)
ZM Zone Mixte (French: Mixed Zone; athlete interview area)
ZM ZixMail
ZM Zolid Matters (website)
ZM Zusammenfassende Meldung (German: Summary Report)

ZM, Chewkw?

Not that knowing what ZM means will make anymore sense of your post which resembles the output of a random sentence generator given the inputs of "EU" and a page of some zombie novel.

This is because majority of the EU leaders are "infected" by the views that they should look after their own personal political career self interest only.

The UK does very well at that already without EU influence, lol!

oldmanmtb - Member
Above is a post from a crack den in meadowell (part of Newcastle)

Once again (God knows I keep asking) what exactly are we going to sell the rest of the world- bear on mind my mate Bob is sat waiting for his £36k manufacturing job in Hartlepool and he is already a bit p****d off its not arrived yet, I need all you pro brexit folks to give me a rough cut 5 to 10 year plan that gets Bob a job (no cub scout refs please!) As to be frank the rest is just high brow bollocks by the way Bob has a fork lift truck licence and a city and guilds in Plating... so Jamba Ninfan etc what's the plan....

ZM, Chewkw?

"Zombie Maggot" I believe.

A chewkwism - something about bureaucrats and/or politicians and/or establishment.

Not that knowing what ZM means will make anymore sense of your post which resembles the output of a random sentence generator

He does [i]occasionally[/i] have lucid moments.

I just hope he still recognises his children when they visit. It can't be easy for them.

Once again (God knows I keep asking) what exactly are we going to sell the rest of the world

Tea and Jam, man, come on, do keep up.

*ignoring that most of our sugar, fruit and tea is imported (don't tell Theresa).

I suppose Bob could load it with his forklift...

Edukator - Reformed Troll
ZM, Chewkw?

Not that knowing what ZM means will make anymore sense of your post which resembles the output of a random sentence generator given the inputs of "EU" and a page of some zombie novel.

ZM = Zombie Maggots that can generally equate to brain rot with all the associate symptoms. You will find a lot of such infection in the EU bureaucratic system. 😛

Bear in mind our brain is rotting slowly as we aged just like our body so I am not surprised to see acceleration of brain rot working in the EU bureaucratic system because the thinking bit has been taken out.

mattyfez - Member

This is because majority of the EU leaders are "infected" by the views that they should look after their own personal political career self interest only.

The UK does very well at that already without EU influence, lol!

I know, I know! We already have them clinging onto EU ZM rules so desperately they now try to fight to justify the EU ZM rule set. I mean the rules override the people will. In fact they see the EU ZM rules as an end by itself. Their existence is to justify the rules. 😆

Sorted it was staring me in the face - Bob could take it off one ship and put it on another - would have to open the container to get the stuff out, we are gonna need some Dockers as well
Shit this is shaping up thanks you visionary Brexiteers.....

Jamba Ninfan no need for a plan, me and Mattyfez have it sorted...

Also we could sell coffee to south America, ice to the Eskimos and sand to the Arabs. So much potential in these new and emerging markets once we are freed from the shackles of the EU.