[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

But paying for access to single market is not what the Leave wanted.

It's not what some on leave wanted (including all the high profile campaigners who clearly stated we would leave the single market).

I know a few people (and there are plenty others on discussion forums) who are pushing for exactly that. They wanted out of the EU but to stay in the single market. Free trade without free movement of people.

Freedom of immigration doesn't mean all eu citizens have to be treated as Brits.

So yes, all EU citizens have to be treated as brits. But that isn't how it started.

TFEU Article 18:

Within the scope of application of the Treaties, and without prejudice to any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited

many brexiters voted to reduce the numbers of immigrants coming here

I'd suggest that a great many were far more bothered about immigrants coming here and getting handed benefits & housing off the bat

It's futile working out what any group of people 'want', we just don't know for sure and they probably all had different desires anyway.

What we do know is there was a narrow margin for the undefined term 'leave' in a non-legally-binding vote. That gives a vast margin for interpretation and doesn't specifically require anything to change at all.

Nobody in this thread has come up with any sane logic to close down any option of any kind.

Just listened to the Parliamentary question/answer Davies gave. Common sense, we may pay something for certain programmes. Perfect example is Erasmus - absolutely worth paying £20m (?) a year for.

I'd suggest that a great many were far more bothered about immigrants coming here and getting handed benefits & housing off the bat than were actually really bothered about immigrants 'coming here'

Does this really actually happen?

I'm not talking about refugees now - EU migrants.

What's an extra 20 million, when brexit will only be costing us a few billion a year, eh?

Does this really actually happen?

I'm not talking about refugees now - EU migrants.

IIRC, the outcome of this episode was that he got a rented house paid for by housing benefit

you clearly cant blame the kids, and they shouldn't suffer, but you sure as hell can blame the system.

Does this really actually happen?

If you live in the south and you've got a young family and both of you are working minimum wage in Costa you'll be getting whatever in work benefits are available and family allowance to get by. We have some Polish friends in exactly that situation.

you sure as hell can blame the system.

Which has changed a fair bit now they're reducing in work benefits. We were subsidizing jobs with in work benefits, and then importing people from abroad to do them which is a bit mad.

Unintended consequences!

Sterling is still up 1% at $1.2631 following comments by Brexit Secretary David Davis that the UK would consider making payments to the EU after it leaves the EU to secure the best possible access to the single market.

I'd suggest that a great many were far more bothered about immigrants coming here and getting handed benefits & housing off the bat than were actually really bothered about immigrants 'coming here'

Kind of sums it up doesn't it. 😯

molgrips - Member

Does this really actually happen?

I'm not talking about refugees now - EU migrants.

Since when did what actually happens influence the majority of votes?

[i]The benefits issue was always easy to fix simply create a law that states you must be resident for 5 years before you or your spouse/children can claim any in work benefits including tax credits. Easier than Brexit [/I]

Seems unfair that an immigrant can't get benefits unless they've lived here and paid tax/NI for 5 years, yet Brits can get those same benefits without paying a single penny of tax/NI?

Brexit good news for Ireland

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-idUKKBN13Q4JU?il=0

He said the bank has seen a material increase in queries from UK-authorised entities, several of which have moved into the pre-application or application phase, meaning the Irish financial sector was set to grow, quite possibly significantly.

He said the applications are likely to continue in the coming months as firms prepare for the possibility of a loss of passporting rights into the EU, a system that lets them operate across the bloc but under the supervision of just one regulator.

ALSO IN BUSINESS NEWS

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Roux, who is also a deputy governor at the bank, said its workforce planning for next year reflected the additional resources needed to deal with applications and that is has also built in contingency should the need arise.

Screw you EU and all you represent!! We'll take back power and tell you what's what!! We'll spend the money that you're taking from and spend it on something useful like entry to the single market!
That'll teach you good and proper.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38168942 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38168942[/url]
Brexshitters really are a disorganised bunch of muppets who are now making it even more difficult for the supporters to support.

Screw you EU and all you represent!! We'll take back power and tell you what's what!! We'll spend the money that you're taking from and spend it on something useful like entry to the single market!
That'll teach you good and proper.

So let me get this straight, the current brexit plan is to leave, then buy back into the single market, and BoJo is backing free movement.

[img] [/img]

our local mp just been on r4 suggesting the EU will be paying us to trade with them, going to be a lot of very unhappy tory back benchers if they don't get their hard brexit.

our local mp just been on r4

So let me get this straight, the current brexit plan is to leave, then buy back into the single market, and BoJo is backing free movement.

@Klunk I have made that point that the EU should pay us based on trade imbalance. Now it will never happen of course but it's certainly an argument as to why free trade should cost zero.

@tmh etc all, I have said many times the EU could have avoided this mess if it had been willing to listen and reform. However it is not, it has a superlative arrogance and a blinkered view which says the only way forward is their way.

Ireland is an obvious choice for an EU booking office and they have a track record for offering tax incentives as they did in the old docks years ago. Rent an office, transfer over a few sales people, lawyers and book transactions through Dublin. Speak English and it's a short flight from London. Probably cheaper doing that than signing a fronting/white-label agreement with an EU bank/insurer

I don't think the EU (or any other member states) could have done anything at all to avoid "this mess" (which implies you are now not so happy with the Brexit vote outcome). It's an entirely British "mess" driven by a few high profile populists with British media complicity. You can't blame the EU for Britain deciding to leave rather than work for reform from within.

The Ofsted chief executive today said that the Brexit vote was partly explained by a greater North south divide, lack of investment up north etc...

You can't blame the EU for Britain deciding to leave rather than work for reform from within.

They will still be blaming the Eu in 2025 for anythign they dont like as it will always be there fault we did this and their fault 27 countries would not do what we alone wanted

So let me get this straight, the current brexit plan is to leave, then buy back into the single market, and BoJo is backing free movement.

Ten deep breaths....

@tmh etc all, I have said many times the EU could have avoided this mess if it had been willing to listen and reform. However it is not, it has a superlative arrogance and a blinkered view which says the only way forward is their way

...another ten....exhale

The wider arrogance reflected here is breathtaking (excuse me Jambas, this is a wider point not a personal one!). The UK has been a PITA for Europe for a long time. Despite this we have been able to have an extraordinary flexible relationship that has been massively skewed in our favour in terms of trade and investment. Not least, because we avoided the folly of the € and all that implies. Away from us, the EU has to decide what do do about the € but that does not affect us. The extraordinary relationship that we had was re-enforced by the agreement that CMD reached - ignoring the hyperbole pre/during/post and sticking to the facts - which was (while not perfect) about as good as it gets. Maximise the benefits, minimise the losses.

Instead we now have Brexshit Bollocks that will result in a watered down and materially worse version of what we had already, strained relationships, and two years plus of unnecessary uncertainty. (We may even have conflict - but leave that aside for the moment). For this, the leading Brexhsiteers should never be forgotten especially as their naked narcissism turned out to be so unappealing.

Ten more deep breaths and relax (and back to presentation)

You can't blame the EU for Britain deciding to leave rather than work for reform from within.

Asked about the implications of a Leave victory, Mr Juncker said: “The British policymakers and British voters have to know that there will be not be any kind of renegotiation,” he said.

“We have concluded a deal with the Prime Minister, he got the maximum he could receive, we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no kind of renegotiation, nor on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned.”

Juncker on the 22nd June

Please explain how further reform was on the table and/or possible?

I'm waiting for the Bexshitter spin to make this a pre-planned and positive aspect.

"Of course, this will NEVER happen, but if it did then it will be acceptable because it is a SOVEREIGN government spending it"

🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

Instead we now have Brexshit Bollocks that will result in a watered down and materially worse version of what we had already, strained relationships, and two years plus of unnecessary uncertainty. (We may even have conflict - but leave that aside for the moment). For this, the leading Brexhsiteers should never be forgotten especially as their naked narcissism turned out to be so unappealing.

Are you going to do the Paddy Ashdown version of eating your hat if it turns out as positive?

(We may even have conflict - but leave that aside for the moment)

Or is this just more hyperbole?

The Ofsted chief executive today said that the Brexit vote was partly explained by a greater North south divide, lack of investment up north etc...

I heard this and whilst it might be in part true, I am inclined to say b****cks, are we saying money pays for family and student attitude?

Money gets you decent teachers but many of the teachers i know don't complain about money but about support.

"Of course, this will NEVER happen, but if it did then it will be acceptable because it is a SOVEREIGN government spending it"

B n D, France wants reform (or the politicians most likely to be the next president do), the Italians, Spanish... the EU evolves, nothing ever stays still. France is fed up with fiscal dumping by Ireland and Luxembourg (and the UK if it remains). The UE parliament being overridden by the commission and the level of access lobby groups have is contested by parties throughout Europe. EU policies are always a compromise. The UK will no longer have a say in that compromise if Brexit goes ahead.

People are comparing a future UK to Norway, and what if it were similar to Russia, Turkey or Morocco?

[url= http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-davis-adviser-raoul-ruparel-brexit-customs-union-gdp-2016-10 ]http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-davis-adviser-raoul-ruparel-brexit-customs-union-gdp-2016-10[/url]

not sure whether this has been posted, but seriously, WTF, we are going to trash the economy and......

Are you going to do the Paddy Ashdown version of eating your hat if it turns out as positive?

Please detail how this will happen...
(Don't forget to CC the Gov in, as they don't seem to have a ****ing clue..)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/01/brexit-eu-citizens-living-britain-risk-deportation-3-million-campaign-european-union

Don't see what the're worried about - jamba says they'll be fine!

It'll be great when we do get the power back and can start manufacturing just like what we done before. We can set our own safety standards then re-manufacture everything in order to sell into Europe. Which business brain thought that one? 😆
Add this to sovereign money being spent how we want to and we're starting to look really foolish.
Power to the muppets!

Some good news for France a few minutes ago, I can't resist quoting a song:

"Casse-toi tu pue, et marche à l'ombre"

Hollande has decided not to run again for President in 2017. So we can ignore anything on Brexit he's said to date, in the unlikely event anyone was actually listening to him.

DrJ there is [b]a risk[/b] we could all be killed in a massive meteorite strike. I have many friends and relatives who applied for passports, it wasn't that hard. (Americans, New Zelanders, Indians, Columbian ..)

Captain I don't recall the Leave campaign claiming we'd see a return to mass manufacturing in the UK as a result of Brexit. The only party suggesting that's remotely possible is Labour via their £500bn Investment Bank

"Casse-toi tu pue, et marche à l'ombre"

You made my wife laugh 🙂 After that long list of achievements he went through I thought he was going to suggest he was the oly solution to the troubles of the world.

Captain I don't recall the Leave campaign claiming we'd see a return to mass manufacturing in the UK as a result of Brexit. The only party suggesting that's remotely possible is Labour via their £500bn Investment Bank

You said "just like we did before" which I took to mean the days of mass manufacturing.

[quote=mrmo ]are we saying money pays for family and student attitude?

No are you saying more money does not provide a better education?

Anyway what he actually said is below.

One in three schools in Manchester and almost 50% in Liverpool were “not good”, and he said the inequality of provision was “feeding into a wider malaise” and a “sense of alienation” that people were feeling in parts of the country.

In an earlier interview with the BBC during a visit to Manchester, he said: “The situation is very, very serious. It’s feeding into a sense that the people of Liverpool, Manchester and the north are not being treated fairly – that their children have less of a chance of educational success than people south of the Wash.

“And that’s feeding into a wider malaise that I sense with the Brexit vote, that actually this wasn’t just about leaving Europe, it’s about ‘our needs being neglected, our children are not getting as good a deal as elsewhere’.

“Parents want to see their children doing well; they want to see them going off to university; they want to see them getting a good job. Well, they have less of a chance of that in this city [Manchester], in Liverpool and elsewhere, and that feeds into this sense of discontent in the north and in the Midlands.”

You said "just like we did before" which [b]I took to mean[/b] the days of mass manufacturing.

Common sense, we may pay something for certain programmes. Perfect example is Erasmus - absolutely worth paying £20m (?) a year for.

Indeed. It pays some of my wages for the next two years.

upgrade the standards to satisfy the EU. That's really taking back control, isn't it? Instead of being at the organisers' table, we will simply follow their orders.

Anyone would think that the EU is the end of the known world, and that the existence of ISO wasn't a 'thing' in manufacturing

DrJ there is a risk we could all be killed in a massive meteorite strike. I have many friends and relatives who applied for passports, it wasn't that hard. (Americans, New Zelanders, Indians, Columbian ..)

Bullshyte. As the article says, the paperwork is massive and the restrictions tight. As things stand, MsJ will not be able to live with me and I suppose I will not be able to live with her. Thanks a lot, Brexshitters, for firing the meteorite towards Earth.

The North is not a single lump of working poor/crap education it has many areas that are probably more affluent than southern areas - York? Harrogate, part of Leeds Durham and Manchester, Jesmond, Tynemouth,Yarm, Cheshire, Corbridge are very very affluent. It's because we have the post industrial towns concentrated here that skews the picture.

Anyone would think that the EU is the end of the known world, and that the existence of ISO wasn't a 'thing' in manufacturing

the existence of ISO wasn't a 'thing' in manufacturing

Hmmm. ISO - great in theory I suppose, but not great in practice. Buying equipment from abroad is much easier when it is to a pan-European standard than a global standard. And yes I am aware that a lot of ISOs, ENs and BSs are absolutely identical - it's just that the equipment somehow isn't.

Even Chinese stuff consumers buy is CE isn't it? So presumably Britain will stick with CE - until CE can only be given to something with a Eurostyle plug of course.

The North is not a single lump of working poor/crap education

the inequality of provision .....their children have less of a chance of educational success than people south of the Wash.

Parents want to see their children doing well; they want to see them going off to university; they want to see them getting a good job. Well, they have less of a chance of that in this city [Manchester], in Liverpool and elsewhere, and that feeds into this sense of discontent in the north and in the Midlands.”

He said nothing about what you said and you said nothing about what they said.

DrJ maybe in the circumstances they will streamline the process. It's not beyond the will of man or woman is it ? How about a first rapid stage allowing you say 5 years and then the PR later. As an aside PR in Singapore is a rolling 5 period.

The divides in my part of the North are very obvious, the difference in state schools a few miles apart is staggering.

DrJ maybe in the circumstances they will streamline the process. It's not beyond the will of man or woman is it ? How about a first rapid stage allowing you say 5 years and then the PR later.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't - you just don't know what they will decide. Meanwhile people have stress because their lives may be turned upside down. Thanks.

No are you saying more money does not provide a better education?

@junkyard, more money helps, and can help a lot if spent at the right time, but and it is a big but, money doesn't solve attitude. Or at least more money into schools isn't the solution. Too many people i have spoken to have had run ins with parents who aren't interested and have issues with the structure of education.

on page 206 is a graph that i think illustrates my point a little, money helps but lots of money doesn't get the US to the top of the educational outcome tree.

I am sure i am not alone in knowing people when going through school who didn't care, and knowing others who tried and were picked on for doing so?

The divides in my part of the North are very obvious, the difference in state schools a few miles apart is staggering.

This is very true.
However, for our politicians and press to suggest this is caused or compounded by Europe is ludicrous.
It's down to a London south east centric view, over-investment and protectionism.
We had a thread in this recently with regards to the new rail links....

jambalaya - Member
Hollande has decided not to run again for President in 2017. So we can ignore anything on Brexit he's said to date, in the unlikely event anyone was actually listening to him.

What the Home Office should do to help with the backlog is computerise a bunch of stuff. You know, get all modern, help speed things up.

They could even give it a catchy name. How about "eBorders"? That sounds good. I'm sure it will be in place in no time, and it will only cost a couple of million.

Nothing to worry about.

[quote=oldmanmtb ]The divides in my part of the North are very obvious, the difference in state schools a few miles apart is staggering.

again not what he said as he did not say all northern schools were crap

On average Northern schools have worse outcomes than southern schools is as simple as it gets. He did not say there were no good northern schools or no regional variation within northern schools

Do you even want to discuss what they said or do you just want to state what you think?

[quote=oldmanmtb ]The divides in my part of the North are very obvious, the difference in state schools a few miles apart is staggering.

again not what he said as he did not say all northern schools were crap

On average Northern schools have worse outcomes than southern schools is as simple as it gets. He did not say there were no good northern schools or no regional variation within northern schools

Do you even want to discuss what they said or do you just want to state what you think?

The north is poorer than the south
I have not said all northerners are poor, there are no rich northern areas nor there are no prosperous northern areas.

Where is the boundary?

[i]Even Chinese stuff consumers buy is CE isn't it? So presumably Britain will stick with CE - until CE can only be given to something with a Eurostyle plug of course. /I]

You pretty much need an CE stamp to sell within the EEA nevermind the EU, so why would you try and produce anything that's not CE marked?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

IMO adopting a different standard for the sake of it is pretty pointless and will probably just mean selling cheap 5h1t - and no way can we sell stuff cheaper than the Chinese and the like can produce/sell.

IMO adopting a different standard for the sake of it is pretty pointless and will probably just mean selling cheap 5h1t - and no way can we sell stuff cheaper than the Chinese and the like can produce/sell.

[quote=slowoldman ]Where is the boundary?

what do you mean by boundary

We can do this or we could actually debate the points being raised

your call

The boundary between North and South? I'm guessing it's more of a South-East and everybody else split.

I think what he's saying is that it's not that simple. Geographically I suppose you could draw a line east to west somewhere around where Nottingham is, but land mass is not really relevant in the context of this discussion.

[quote=slowoldman ]The boundary between North and South? I'm guessing it's more of a South-East and everybody else split.

Fien in what way is that relevant to what he said

We either discuss whether there is a divide between the two or we discuss exactly where the boundary between the two lie and then accept their is a divide between the two

Clearly the north south divide is one of those things that we all know really what it means even though we could debate endlessly exactly what it meant.

Reminds me of radio 4 when someone said we should let in more immigrants and the presenter spent 5 minutes arguing about what more meant rather than discuss the actual point raised.

The longer this goes on the more convinced I am that the Tory party is actually a surrealist improvisational comedy troupe sleeper cell activated after the last election. Philip Hammond isn't in on the joke obvs.

The alternative is just too horrifying to contemplate.......

[img] [/img]

Looking at the map I'll venture that remain areas have a high proportion of people who are: cosmopolitan, enlightened, educated, tolerant, economically active, homofriendly, in favour of equal rights... .

Perhaps someone from the leave camp would care to do the leave areas, it would be unfair if I did it.

A heatmap based on income would be interesting

A heatmap based on income would be interesting

In fact, it looks pretty random (other than Scotland).

I don't think it's income, Brighton isn't any richer than some other places on the south coast but if you look at my list it ticks every one.

5th - Scotlands GDP per capita is higher than the other UK countries - income I don't know.

b r - Member
[i]Even Chinese stuff consumers buy is CE isn't it? So presumably Britain will stick with CE - until CE can only be given to something with a Eurostyle plug of course. /I]

You pretty much need an CE stamp to sell within the EEA nevermind the EU, so why would you try and produce anything that's not CE marked?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

IMO adopting a different standard for the sake of it is pretty pointless and will probably just mean selling cheap 5h1t - and no way can we sell stuff cheaper than the Chinese and the like can produce/sell.

I agree. The point being that we already have a different standard plug to the rest of Europe. If Europe goes down a "corded electrical goods must have a Euro standard plug permanently attached to get CE marked" route then the UK will have to walk away from CE goods in the UK market - or change plugs in the UK which is unlikely. Then we have to decide what standard we want Chinese manufacturers to use for Britain and Chinese manufacturers have to decide if they can be bothered on low end goods (high end they'll bother).

5th - Scotlands GDP per capita is higher than the other UK countries - income I don't know.

I think edukator that there is also something about sense of identity. At a very general level.

Areas like Scotland, Liverpool, York or London with a strong sense of identity, from strong political leadership or a common enemy or just because they are who they are and their bloody proud of it voted remain - they weren't worried about losing their identity as we become more integrated (by migration or otherwise) with European peoples.

Those areas that have lost their way a little former mining areas for example voted leave.

Now that's clearly not everything that wad going on, but it ties up with similar emotional content about cosmopolitan versus xenophobic etc.

You're talking +/- a couple of percent. Any conclusions are, at best, the voice in your head.

When the swing was 1.9% nationally that's everything though isn't it?

But yes drawing conclusions is a brave step.

One of the places I used to make my judgement on leave voted 70% leave. It's not the kind of place you'd come out, education standards are OK but the educated leave to go to university and tend not to return, it's almost exclusively white, rich (so much so that there's a clique of women do arty things or charity work rather than work), the churches are quite busy. It scores really badly on my remain attributes list.

Are the LibDems back?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38178486

Looks like it, a Pro EU campaign winning, the thought that returning Goldsmith as an independant would stop Heathrow expansion was a bit farsical. He did however not reflect the views or concearns of his constituents on the most pressing matter of the day.

I don't know what Mr Goldsmith has been eating recently but judging by those photos, it must have been very bitter.

Richmond voted 70% Remain and the Tories did not put forward a candidate so a LibDem win isn't a big surprise. I would not have voted for Goldsmith. As Jess Phillips said a stupid game from a rich boy. She also said this

Do you know what this election won't change - Heathrow expansion or Brexit